Patch 3.3

[Rendakor]

Edit: Whoops wrong thread

[Azuredream]

Is the sole difference here that Sarth is obsolete content that no one cares about whereas LK is the last boss of the expansion? You can't argue that burning the boss doesn't completely trivialize the fight. It DOES fundamentally change it. Or is it that because a burn is only possible if you outgear it, whereas the bombs are available to anyone?

[kildorn]

Is the sole difference here that Sarth is obsolete content that no one cares about whereas LK is the last boss of the expansion? You can't argue that burning the boss doesn't completely trivialize the fight. It DOES fundamentally change it. Or is it that because a burn is only possible if you outgear it, whereas the bombs are available to anyone?

I think a more specific encounter comparison would be people killing XT in locations where his extra adds would not spawn. I don't think anyone cared about it and it was just patched one day because it wasn't some notable all over the web event. It was just a random boss that people exploited for weeks with no real penalties. They seem to only suspend for the end bosses from what I can see.

[Lantyssa]

One is a basic function of the game.  The entire point of the game (mechanically) is to always get more DPS.  The other is using an item to bring about unintended consequences.

There really isn't any comparison.

[Rendakor]

The difference is that you're not doing anything shady in OS10+3; you're just dpsing hard. Is it exploiting to kill Grand Magus Telestra in H Nexus before she splits the second time? Should I have my Split Personality achievement removed? Is a tank popping his cooldowns and tanking Patchwerk alone an exploit?

The XT fight kildorn mentioned is a better example; another one that is a valid comparison is the Heigan corner tanking strategy. In both of those cases you are doing something SPECIFIC to change or nullify a mechanic of a fight. The only thing you're doing in OS10+3 is overgearing it, and that isn't an exploit, it's a core goal of the game.

[K9]

Tanking XT never seemed like an exploit to be honest, and it didn't really matter when they changed it.

The first Yogg0 kill where the guild used a paladin to evade-bug adds which were intentionally unkillable so they didn't need to be tanked, that is an exploit. Patching out walls in a raid, that is an exploit. These go above and beyond what most people label as exploits because you are funtionally breaking a certain portion of the fight.

[Soulflame]

Is the sole difference here that Sarth is obsolete content that no one cares about whereas LK is the last boss of the expansion? You can't argue that burning the boss doesn't completely trivialize the fight. It DOES fundamentally change it. Or is it that because a burn is only possible if you outgear it, whereas the bombs are available to anyone?

The fight wasn't terribly easy to burn in Uld gear.  You'd go in with minimum heals, and pray for a little RNG luck with Sarth breathing on the tank and lava waves, as a lava wave that forced your healers to move coinciding with Sarth breathing was almost certainly a wipe.  You'd have to have someone kiting around an enraged drake (they enrage when Sarth hits something like 25%, I believe) and if you lost a single DPS to bad luck, such as little drakes, or elementals, it was going to be a wipe.  It isn't terribly much easier than simply doing the fight the "right" way in the same gear, as it'd be fairly trivial to burn each drake as they landed, it's just a shorter learning curve.

[Selby]

The fight wasn't terribly easy to burn in Uld gear.

It took us 16 tries to get it the first time in Naxx-25\Uld-10 gear back in the July\August timeframe.  It was certainly not easy and required lots of luck just as you said.  In contrast last night, we did it in a 1-shot with our pally tank forgetting to put Righteous Fury on and having Sarth constantly turning to other people.  Top DPS was 8800 compared to the 4500 of the first tries.

[Simond]

Speaking of blatant exploits, there's a couple of hilarious ways to get approximately a fuckton of charm bracelets for the Valentine's event. Think along the lines of "What quests/dungeons/raids do I get to mow down a bunch of L80-ish mobs with minimal effort?" 

[Rendakor]

Do the mobs have to be looted to get the bracelets? Or are kills enough?

Edit: kills are enough. H CoS ftw

[Zetor]

And I just got the zombiefest achievement yesterday. Time to run it again! 

I wonder if this'll get hotfixed, not that getting a ton of bracelets is OMFG game breaking or anything.

[SurfD]

Supposedly, UBER bracelets can be had if you go to ulduar, hop in a vehicle, and run around mowing down dwarves for half an hour.  It also appearently works with the argent jousting horses and the 1 shot trample skeletons out front of icecrown.

[Simond]

...and the Icecrown bombing runs, and the jihadi-abomination daily, and so on. I'm expecting a "Doesn't work in vehicles" hotfix pretty soon.

[Ingmar]

And I thought I was being abusive chain killing the frenzyheart fighting circle...

[Merusk]

There's also the Icecrown harpoon gun quest. 

I don't see a reason to hotfix it, but you're right they probably will.

[Lantyssa]

If they hotfix ranks and vehicles in Wintergrasp I don't care one way or the other about the bracelets.

[Fordel]

After 5 damn years, Darnassus now has a Paladin AND a Mage trainer! Both in the Temple of the Moon.

[Jayce]

After 5 damn years, Darnassus now has a Paladin AND a Mage trainer! Both in the Temple of the Moon.

The mage trainer is probably setup for Cataclysm, but paladins?

Now if Silvermoon gets a warrior trainer, things will be peachy!  Right, blood elves can't be warriors, but there is a druid trainer there. Explain that!

[Ingmar]

The paladin trainer is there for convenience, like the shaman trainer that Stormwind has always had since we got draenei.

[Fordel]

Both the Paladin and Mage Trainer are Draenei's. The Mage Trainer is actually the Draenei's ambassador, they turned her into a mage trainer. The Paladin trainer is just beside her.

[LK]

Ohhh, I get it. You thought by adding a trainer it's a confirmation that Night Elves were going to be certain classes rather than doing it for convenience and smart game design (better late than never, right?).

[Lakov_Sanite]

Ohhh, I get it. You thought by adding a trainer it's a confirmation that Night Elves were going to be certain classes rather than doing it for convenience and smart game design (better late than never, right?).

Actually they've already announced night elves would be mages in cataclysm about...six months ago.

[Kail]

Now if Silvermoon gets a warrior trainer, things will be peachy!

Shammy trainer, plz.  Warriors can hop over to Undercity, at least.  Young Shamans have to trek all the way back to Orgrimmar (in addition to all the retarded circles they still have to run to get their totems).

[Lantyssa]

It was still annoying for Warriors.  Have to run into the Undercity and through the maze to the outer ring.

[Simond]

Now if Silvermoon gets a warrior trainer, things will be peachy!

Shammy trainer, plz.  Warriors can hop over to Undercity, at least.  Young Shamans have to trek all the way back to Orgrimmar (in addition to all the retarded circles they still have to run to get their totems).

Or just stay in Durotar/Barrens, which will be better than Silvermoon/Ghostlands once Cataclysm hits.

[Dren]

Looking at the design notes, Cata will make it so you won't be visiting the trainers as often.  Spell ranks will automatically go up as you level.  Yes, you have to go to the traniners to get those new spells/powers, but maybe not as often?

[Jayce]

Or just stay in Durotar/Barrens, which will be better than Silvermoon/Ghostlands once Cataclysm hits.

This is true, I hadn't thought of that.  For now, the Ghostlands/Azuremyst experience is really head and shoulders over the vanilla starting areas.  The goblin/worgen areas are going to be even better if the DK starting area is any indication. 

They are really taking this to the next level. Now if only someone else could learn these simple lessons.  The entire MMOG industry's eggs are in one basket.

[Merusk]

They are really taking this to the next level. Now if only someone else could learn these simple lessons.  The entire MMOG industry's eggs are in one basket.

They won't, and they have only themselves to blame.  You STILL, 5 years later hear people saying WoW is an outlier built ONLY on Blizzard's name and fanbase. A fanbase that will disappear from WoW once the next Blizzard game hits the shelves. There's nothing to learn from them and (this is the new one) they haven't introduced a SINGLE innovation or new idea to MMOs in the last 5 years.  That, if anything, they've held the genre back

 

[Dren]

To be fair, anyone that comes out with anything remotely close to WoW also gets called a WoW clone.

Damn if you do, damned if you don't...

[Lantyssa]

The only things coming out remotely close to WoW are aping the style and not the lessons learned.  They have all deserved their mockery.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The only things coming out remotely close to WoW are aping the style and not the lessons learned.  They have all deserved their mockery.

Exactly. No game has come out in the past five years that's been able to capture the gameplay of wow.  If anything games like aoc and war harken back to the eq/daoc days than anything and that's why they failed.

[Dren]

That is all true.  I guess my point is that one of two things happens (not saying it is right) when a new game comes out:

- Try something different, but it sucks.  Respones: "You should have done it like WoW."
- Do something like WoW.  Response: "You just copied WoW!"

We've said it a lot already.  WoW does the following better than anyone has and thus rules them all currently:

- Look at what is happening with other games and use it, but with more polish and shine.
- Listen to the customer base and make changes accordingly.  Stop acting like anything that benefits the customer is a "bad thing."  (LFG system that is quick and easy, dual-specs, server moves, faction changes, easier/quicker leveling at low levels, etc.)
- Continue to push for "something better" in each patch and expansion.  Companies with their market position in the past stopped this at some point.  It always felt like they reached a level where they thought it was time to just milk this cow until it dies.  I've never felt that from Blizzard on WoW and, in fact, they seem to have ramped this up over time.
- Don't release anything unless it is reasonably DONE.  Schedules be damned!  Frustrating at times, but much better than the alternative.  We've seen and done that way too often.
- When you do launch something different (phasing, vehicles, siege, etc.) and it doesn't work quite like it should, work towards fixing it.  Ok, this might take longer than players would like, but they eventually get it right.  I'd much rather they fail than not try at all.

[Sheepherder]

- Continue to push for "something better" in each patch and expansion.  Companies with their market position in the past stopped this at some point.  It always felt like they reached a level where they thought it was time to just milk this cow until it dies.  I've never felt that from Blizzard on WoW and, in fact, they seem to have ramped this up over time.

WoW was pretty atrophied during TBC.  Wrath is a high water mark for the developers coming back and saying "Let's give a fuck!"  I'm fairly certain they were hedging their bets in favour of Wrath being their last expansion, not realizing how badly their competition was going to fuck things up and open the way for them milking WoW for another five years.  Which is fine, because Blizzard gives more thought to their milking than anyone else does to earnest development.

[Rendakor]

Today was just a couple hotfixes right?

I ask because Andorhal has been in full blown patch mode all day: world servers crashing, mail lag, AH randomly not working, etc. Server finally came down about an hour and a half ago, and it's still not back up.

[Cadaverine]

From what I understand it was just hotfixes, mainly to correct the issues with the charm bracelets.  Seems they screwed the pooch, though, and broke some stuff in ICC, or something, and then all the server issues.  I haven't seen much different from the usual lag I get, but there was much crying about it in Trade chat, on the server forum.