Patch 3.3

[AutomaticZen]

You can have too many tanks and healers and both specs suffer from group dependency or lack of role in some aspect of the game. I see a lot more tanks around these days, simply because farming or pvping as a tank spec isn't totally brutal.

This.  I remember booting up Wrath and saying 'Thank god, I can solo well!'. 

I stil remember fighting this mob in Terrokar Forest.  The mob itself was essentially a tree druid with the instant rolling hots that come with the class.  Utter fucking stalemate.  I could not put out enough damage to kill it before the Hots healed it, but it couldn't kill me because of Seal of Light procs.

AoE farming was always fun, but against a single target?  My prot pally was a bunch of shit.

[Rendakor]

I honestly think more people prefer to play dps characters than tanks or healers. My personal experience matches Nebu's, except that I hated shitty tanks, so now I'm the tank (DK Tank, Prot warrior just hit 80 and I'm probably picking up my mid-20s pally and speccing him prot as well).

Almost all players who are new to MMOs roll DPS as their first character. All my RL friends who picked up WoW as their first MMO ended up as mages, locks and rogues.

[Hawkbit]

It's because tanks can't be passive players and DPS can.  I've done both; I know how easy it is to screw around on DPS.  Not as a tank though.  98% of tanks lead instances and set the pace. 

That, and tanking is pretty fucking thankless. 

[Fordel]

You're clearly not a Prot Paladin. 

[Merusk]

Prot pally was zzzzzz in BC.  Toos out a few concs, keep holy shield up and taunt if things get away.   I hear it's not as easy in LK raids, but is even more OP in Heroics.  I can't see how.

[Fordel]

Once you got past X gear point, it's just a matter of mashing the 969 cast sequence macro in 5 mans. TBC was even better/worse depending on your view point.

[Shrike]

I honestly think more people prefer to play dps characters than tanks or healers. My personal experience matches Nebu's, except that I hated shitty tanks, so now I'm the tank (DK Tank, Prot warrior just hit 80 and I'm probably picking up my mid-20s pally and speccing him prot as well).

Almost all players who are new to MMOs roll DPS as their first character. All my RL friends who picked up WoW as their first MMO ended up as mages, locks and rogues.

My first WoW character was a night elven warrior. Mainly because I didn't want to be a human (play one in real life, after all), and it was the only NE class that interested me. I usually play tanks in MMRPGs. Big mistake. One of THE most sucktastic leveling experiences I've ever had. When I eventually hit 60, I was fury and things weren't too bad, but TBC killed it completely. Tanking in TBC was just a painful experience in general and was pure shit for warriors in particular. So was fury. So was arms. Goodbye warrior...

So I rolled a shaman. Went enhance, since that's what I wanted to do in these games (beat on things with weapons), and the rest is history. Lot more fun, and leveling was pretty easy--aside from that bit between the RFK axe and when shamans get DW. Nowadays, I have several tanks again, since WotLK pretty much fixed the day-to-day play thing. Tanking still sucks, but it's not nearly as bad as it was in the last expansion.

[AutomaticZen]

Prot pally was zzzzzz in BC.  Toos out a few concs, keep holy shield up and taunt if things get away.   I hear it's not as easy in LK raids, but is even more OP in Heroics.  I can't see how.

In BC: Seal Righteousness, Consecrate, Holy Shield, Righteous Defense if it goes bad.  Righteous Defense would misfire every now and then and you'd curse your life as a pally.  If you weren't taking enough damage, your mana would eventually dip into nothingness.  On a single target, you were far less effective.  Silences completely locked you out from doing anything. Oh, spell power and Intellect on gear.

In Wrath: 969 rotation, keep Divine Plea up - which generally means sprinting from pull to pull, Hand of Reckoning is the greatest taunt ever.  Hell, with the changes to BoSanc, we don't even have the issue of whether to choose that or Kings anymore.  We're still shit for magic damage, silences suck ass for threat, but we're in a great spot for raids, and absolute gods in Heroics.

[Fabricated]

Tanking in wotlk kinda sucks right now if you're a warrior since all of the hardmode content requires near precognition to know when to bust your cooldowns. Damage in most of ulduar and all of heroic totc is so xxxtreme you have to use CDs like they're your regular rotation. This sucks since it is literally what blizz said they did not want to do.

[AutomaticZen]

Tanking in wotlk kinda sucks right now if you're a warrior since all of the hardmode content requires near precognition to know when to bust your cooldowns. Damage in most of ulduar and all of heroic totc is so xxxtreme you have to use CDs like they're your regular rotation. This sucks since it is literally what blizz said they did not want to do.

But the cooldowns on Divine Protection (Holy Shield Wall), Divine Shield and Lay on Hands are so low now, there's no reason not to use them.  Lay on Hands went from being used once in a blue moon in BC, to whenever I felt like it.

I'm unsure how Warrior cooldowns are.

[Sheepherder]

I'm unsure how Warrior cooldowns are.

Not good.

[Gobbeldygook]

but we're in a great spot for raids

That's an understatement.  Protadins are so absurdly and obviously overpowered compared to other tanks by every single possible metric that the only remaining explanation is that Blizzard is trying to see how overpowered they have to make them to get top guilds to abandon the warrior tanks they've been using for 5 years.

---

Almost every tank or healer I know also has a DPS spec except for the PVPers that maintain a PVP heal spec which doesn't help the supply at all.  I kind of feel bad whenever I DPS the daily heroic on my tank char because I know in my heart that I'm damning someone else in my guild to a terrible pug tank (oh god pug tanks are SO BAD I didn't know I DIDN'T KNOW). 

[AutomaticZen]

but we're in a great spot for raids

That's an understatement.  Protadins are so absurdly and obviously overpowered compared to other tanks by every single possible metric that the only remaining explanation is that Blizzard is trying to see how overpowered they have to make them to get top guilds to abandon the warrior tanks they've been using for 5 years.

Only thing I'd probably fix is Ardent Defender and taking it back to what it was is useless, as it was frequently leapfrogged.  So they'd have to come up with something completely different for the slot.

[Gobbeldygook]

Only thing I'd probably fix is Ardent Defender and taking it back to what it was is useless, as it was frequently leapfrogged.  So they'd have to come up with something completely different for the slot.

You'd need to nerf more than that to bring them into line with all of the other tanks, or else massively buff feral druids, DKs, and warriors.

-Paladins do more single target and AOE threat than any other tank.
-Paladins bring a wider variety of buffs than any other tank (kings, might(potentially improved), wisdom, and sanc)
-Paladins apply their attack power debuff just by facerolling on their keyboard, while a druid or warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds AND would have to spent 5 precious talent points to get what a paladin gets for two AND has to just pray it doesn't get resisted.
-Paladins apply their attack speed debuff by just doing their standard rotation whereas a warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds and pray it doesn't get resisted.
-Paladins can bring the JOL or JOW debuffs, both of which are a significant benefit to the raid.
-Paladins have not one but two ranged taunts on an 8 second cooldown each, one of which hits as hard as Heroic Throw, a one-minute warrior cooldown.
-Paladins have the best mitigation on trash and in heroics because they realistically block every single incoming hit from every mob.  I have sometimes healed protadin tanks in heroics where I did not have to cast a single heal on them in boss fights.
-Paladins do more DPS while tanking than any other tank.
-Paladins are the only tank that can cleanse any debuffs off of themselves while tanking.

That the current argent defender gives them the best EH of any tank by a wide margin is just the icing on the cake.

[K9]

I know plenty of people who enjoy tanking and healing; hardly a 'few' relative to all the people I play with. It's a different style of gameplay to DPS, which I find frankly dull and less engaging than healing. What you assert reflects your particular bias, rather than a true statement about how people like to play the game.

What do you see played more: tank specced toons, healing specced toons, or dps spec toons? 

I'm going to bet that more people play dps specced toons as their main than both tanks and healers combined.  You know this just by watching LFG or looking at shouts for groups. 

Given that the ratio of dps:tank or dps:healer builds is heavily skewed this isn't a fair question; the layout of the classes is innately prone to generating more DPS. This doesn't mean that the number of people who play and like to play healers and/or tanks is insignificant.

I almost always play healers in MMOs.  In EQ, I did it because I thought it was what I enjoyed.  In every MMO since, I've played healer because I hate playing in groups with shitty healers and found that playing the healer was the easiest way to avoid that.  Now I'm the shitty healer in the group!  

Let's be honest here.  As a healer you spend your entire play session staring at the interface while the rest of the group gets to watch the action unfold.  Until healers are allowed to heal interactively rather than reactively, healing in MMO's will continue to suck.  

When I play DPS I spend my whole time staring at my cooldown monitors and I'm a lot less flexible in where I get to be and what I have to do. While being a healer does rely more on the interface; good interfaces can minimise this. I play healer and DPS on two toons and I get to spectate more as a healer than a DPS. Good healers are watching what's going on anyway.

[Sjofn]

Only thing I'd probably fix is Ardent Defender and taking it back to what it was is useless, as it was frequently leapfrogged.  So they'd have to come up with something completely different for the slot.

You'd need to nerf more than that to bring them into line with all of the other tanks, or else massively buff feral druids, DKs, and warriors.

-Paladins do more single target and AOE threat than any other tank.
-Paladins bring a wider variety of buffs than any other tank (kings, might(potentially improved), wisdom, and sanc)
-Paladins apply their attack power debuff just by facerolling on their keyboard, while a druid or warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds AND would have to spent 5 precious talent points to get what a paladin gets for two AND has to just pray it doesn't get resisted.
-Paladins apply their attack speed debuff by just doing their standard rotation whereas a warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds and pray it doesn't get resisted.
-Paladins can bring the JOL or JOW debuffs, both of which are a significant benefit to the raid.
-Paladins have not one but two ranged taunts on an 8 second cooldown each, one of which hits as hard as Heroic Throw, a one-minute warrior cooldown.
-Paladins have the best mitigation on trash and in heroics because they realistically block every single incoming hit from every mob.  I have sometimes healed protadin tanks in heroics where I did not have to cast a single heal on them in boss fights.
-Paladins do more DPS while tanking than any other tank.
-Paladins are the only tank that can cleanse any debuffs off of themselves while tanking.

That the current argent defender gives them the best EH of any tank by a wide margin is just the icing on the cake.

Some of those are whining just to be whining, imo. Some of those things are just part of the class (JoL/W, for example) and while they're nice, no one is saying "we need a paladin TANK for <blah>." They may want a paladin, but they don't care what kind, so I don't really think it counts as "omg paladin tanks need to be nerfed."

That is, incidently, part of why I don't think classes should be able to do all three roles in the style of the paladin. You get people sniffling about Standard Issue Class Abilities as a reason they're overpowered for Role X, Y or Z.

When I play DPS I spend my whole time staring at my cooldown monitors and I'm a lot less flexible in where I get to be and what I have to do. While being a healer does rely more on the interface; good interfaces can minimise this. I play healer and DPS on two toons and I get to spectate more as a healer than a DPS. Good healers are watching what's going on anyway.

It's even worse when you're a tank, I find. You may know what's happening in a fight, but you don't SEE what's happening in the fight, usually. It's especially bad when you have to tank as a bear with your ass to the wall. ><

[Simond]

Nah, paladins are now slightly above where DK tanking was back in 3.0. The nerfs are going to be crippling...and then warriors will move on to whinging about how overpowered druid tanks are. A lot of warriors don't just want to be the best tanks, they want to be the only tanks.

[Dren]

My main is a paladin since launch.  My experience:

Healing:  Once I hit the cap level, I always went healer for the guild runs.  I've always been counted as one of the main healers.  The game has consistently given more and more ability to heal better each major expansion.  Today, I feel like I can heal most anything with very little risk of a wipe.  In most cases, our failures come down to too little DPS (25 man ToC on last boss currently.)  My healing is reactive even more so with Beacon.  I can spot heal the entire raid and heal the tank I'm assigned to at the same time.  I do have to say the latest build for my Disc Priest is great for "fun" healing too.  At least he can run around and heal at the same time.

DPS:  Up until this last expansion the Ret build has been good one day and bad another.  Now, it is quite good and I'm having fun switching back and forth with Holy.  It has been really great for dailies.  I can whip through 10 or more in very little time.  We've had more and more healers in the giuld so I get chances to do some impressive DPS even on my offspec build.  This just gets me into even more raids now.

Tank:  I've never been considered a guild tank, not even now.  I do have a very good tanking set from picking up greed rolls on raids.  I have tanked several heroics in a pinch and had absolutely no issue.  However, I'm not practiced enough to just jump into Raids, and since we have several Tanks in our guild, I will most likely never be a true Tank.  Our main tanks are a warrior and a druid.  They make it to all the big raids, so breaking into that job, even with a so-called glorious tanking class, will be very difficult.  We currently have zero regular paladin tanks in our guild.

[Fordel]

Nah, paladins are now slightly above where DK tanking was back in 3.0. The nerfs are going to be crippling...and then warriors will move on to whinging about how overpowered druid tanks are. A lot of warriors don't just want to be the best tanks, they want to be the only tanks.

Paladin superiority is pretty much about Ardent Defender. Specifically the "I should be dead, but I ain't, praise jebus!" part. Nothing else would make anyone go 'Prot Paladin or bust' for their MT in a raid.


I totally agree about Warrior's though. Bunch of pricks they are.

[AutomaticZen]

Only thing I'd probably fix is Ardent Defender and taking it back to what it was is useless, as it was frequently leapfrogged.  So they'd have to come up with something completely different for the slot.

-Paladins do more single target and AOE threat than any other tank.

I'd say more consistent.  DK AoE is far stronger outside of HotR range, and Warrior snap AoE is great as mobs can frequently run right through consecrate.  I'm flush on undead/demons mobs as I can use Holy Wrath, but otherwise, no dice.  Of course a missed Shockwave is turmoil.

Warriors' DPS is quite low though.  Plus it's all Heroic Strike, Heroic Strike, Heroic Strike.

-Paladins bring a wider variety of buffs than any other tank (kings, might(potentially improved), wisdom, and sanc)

Might is rarely used if you're speccing to main.  Waste of time too.  Shout is better, and without improved wis which only Holy has, Mana totem is better.  

Generally I just buff Sanc on myself and other tanks and Kings on everyone else.

-Paladins apply their attack power debuff just by facerolling on their keyboard, while a druid or warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds AND would have to spent 5 precious talent points to get what a paladin gets for two AND has to just pray it doesn't get resisted.

Not specced into Vindication myself.  It's a another crapshoot if the Pally takes it.

-Paladins apply their attack speed debuff by just doing their standard rotation whereas a warrior has to spend a GCD every 30 seconds and pray it doesn't get resisted.

Agreed.

-Paladins can bring the JOL or JOW debuffs, both of which are a significant benefit to the raid.

Tanks generally toss out JOL.  I let ret toss out JOW if they're around.

-Paladins have not one but two ranged taunts on an 8 second cooldown each, one of which hits as hard as Heroic Throw, a one-minute warrior cooldown.

Super agreed!  Hand of reckoning is a godsend.

-Paladins have the best mitigation on trash and in heroics because they realistically block every single incoming hit from every mob.  I have sometimes healed protadin tanks in heroics where I did not have to cast a single heal on them in boss fights.

Realistically is a bit strong.  Holy Shield has 8 charges, and an 8 second cooldown.  Multi-mobs can eat up those charges in 2-3 seconds, as which time we trust mitigation.  

I fix this by having a seperate trash and boss tanking set.  Trash set is high on Block rating and value.

-Paladins do more DPS while tanking than any other tank.

-Paladins are the only tank that can cleanse any debuffs off of themselves while tanking.

That the current argent defender gives them the best EH of any tank by a wide margin is just the icing on the cake.

I believe the last I read was that Druids now had the highest EH post-3.2.2.  I'll have to hunt it down.

Nah, paladins are now slightly above where DK tanking was back in 3.0. The nerfs are going to be crippling...and then warriors will move on to whinging about how overpowered druid tanks are. A lot of warriors don't just want to be the best tanks, they want to be the only tanks.

Of course they are.  Blizzard trained them that way.

And the breakdown of raiding tanks (via Tankspot) still remains:

45% Warrior
25% DK
20% Paladin
10% Bear

In then end, any nerfs will probably go towards AD in my mind, with a possible slight tune towards our Stam multiplier.  But it won't happen in 3.3.  There's literally no changes for Prot Pallies in 3.3.  

Warriors are on the bottom rung, but GC has all but said it's probably not changing that much due to Warrior tanks stranglehold on raid guilds.  Perception is everything.

[Fordel]

Blizzard is now saying the Chains DR is a bug.


I need that vader pic now.  Noooooo!

[WindupAtheist]

This one?

[Fordel]

This one?

Perfect!

[Fabricated]

The pally "auto-wings/cheat death" is pretty much the reason they're better. Warrior CD's are great and when glyphed down to 2 minutes are still good (40% damage reduction, 30% more HP, 30% HP regeneration). The problem is that damage has been made so insanely spiky to compensate for tank avoidance/healing power that as a non-pally tank you can literally die instantly before hitting a CD. It's not like "oh shit" and hit a button. It's Gormok hitting you for 15k, then instantly using impale on you for 25k, then you taking 15k from an impale tick and whoops you're from literally full HP to dead in an instant.

[Nevermore]

Blizzard is now saying the Chains DR is a bug.


I need that vader pic now.  Noooooo!

Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.

 

[Gobbeldygook]

Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.

Because unlike all of the other snares, which are at best a 70% snare in the case of rogue, COI starts at 95% and then ticks downward.  For a lot of classes there is little difference between a 95% snare and a root except this has no DR.

[Fordel]

The Rogue snare is nearly as bad as Chains really, at least in combination with that Deadly Brew talent.


Triple Poison applications, hurrah! 

[Ingmar]

Blizzard is now saying the Chains DR is a bug.


I need that vader pic now.  Noooooo!

Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.

 

Because a snare that starts at 90% is only a snare in the most technical sense.

[Simond]

Blizzard is now saying the Chains DR is a bug.

I need that vader pic now.  Noooooo!

 

[Ingmar]

And the breakdown of raiding tanks (via Tankspot) still remains:

45% Warrior
25% DK
20% Paladin
10% Bear

In then end, any nerfs will probably go towards AD in my mind, with a possible slight tune towards our Stam multiplier.  But it won't happen in 3.3.  There's literally no changes for Prot Pallies in 3.3.  

Warriors are on the bottom rung, but GC has all but said it's probably not changing that much due to Warrior tanks stranglehold on raid guilds.  Perception is everything.

That's not what I take away from GC's comments, really, but I'm an optimist when it comes to that sort of thing. Ardent Defender is going to eat a nerf eventually (here, you can have Last Stand but you don't have to spend a glyph to get it to 2 minutes, you don't have to know ahead of time when to push the button, OH AND WE'LL ADD A FANTASTIC LOW HEALTH MITIGATION PASSIVE ON TOP OF IT), and warriors will get some of the fixes they want, like getting rid of HS spam. The changes to tanking gear in Cataclysm will make a big difference too. Also I'd take Tankspot stats on tanks with a grain of salt, too, since it isn't the most popular pally tank site (maintankadin is) and so their representation may be artificially low there. I'm not placing any bets on 3.3 not having any changes, the patch cycle is very very young.

(Also you're absolutely nuts if you're not speccing vindication, unless you have a ret pally applying it reliably.)

[Nevermore]

Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.

Because unlike all of the other snares, which are at best a 70% snare in the case of rogue, COI starts at 95% and then ticks downward.  For a lot of classes there is little difference between a 95% snare and a root except this has no DR.

Well, aside from the fact that it's only greater than 70% for 2 seconds out of its 10 second duration.  It's an annoying ability in PvP to be sure, but it's hardly the only annoying ability in PvP.

[AutomaticZen]

That's not what I take away from GC's comments, really, but I'm an optimist when it comes to that sort of thing. Ardent Defender is going to eat a nerf eventually (here, you can have Last Stand but you don't have to spend a glyph to get it to 2 minutes, you don't have to know ahead of time when to push the button, OH AND WE'LL ADD A FANTASTIC LOW HEALTH MITIGATION PASSIVE ON TOP OF IT), and warriors will get some of the fixes they want, like getting rid of HS spam. The changes to tanking gear in Cataclysm will make a big difference too. Also I'd take Tankspot stats on tanks with a grain of salt, too, since it isn't the most popular pally tank site (maintankadin is) and so their representation may be artificially low there. I'm not placing any bets on 3.3 not having any changes, the patch cycle is very very young.

I actually read and post on Maintankadin, but we're frequently rather myopic on there, so I wasn't able to find those type of statistics.

HS spam will be changed, and I think AD will be adjusted as I said earlier.  The problem is in its previous form it was completely useless as most boss damage would completely leapfrog it, and we didn't have many cooldowns to help us out until Holy Shield Wall.  I'd drop the health mitigation because generally I don't get to use it.  AD saves me from one crazy boss hit, but if another follows it, I'm dead.  It's a far far stronger talent against trash or PVP.  In fact I assume it's most of the reason your started seeing Prot in Arenas.

(Also you're absolutely nuts if you're not speccing vindication, unless you have a ret pally applying it reliably.)

I do. 

[K9]

Looks like we're getting raid quests with ICC, happy days.

[Ingmar]

Why should CoI be treated any differently from all the other snares?  I'm no WoW guru so maybe I'm overlooking something, but is there any snare on DR?  I can think of a laundry list of them that definitely aren't.

Because unlike all of the other snares, which are at best a 70% snare in the case of rogue, COI starts at 95% and then ticks downward.  For a lot of classes there is little difference between a 95% snare and a root except this has no DR.

Well, aside from the fact that it's only greater than 70% for 2 seconds out of its 10 second duration.  It's an annoying ability in PvP to be sure, but it's hardly the only annoying ability in PvP.

Those are the 2 seconds of the duration that matter, though. That's enough time for a healer to gain distance on you or for the DK to close. Over and over and over and over.

[Nevermore]

Yeah, DKs are still good at peeling.  That's pretty much the only thing left they excel at in an arena setting (which is what it sounds like you're talking about).  But CoI can still be dispelled if you're having that much trouble with it in the arenas, and as much as people like to imply it can be infinitely reapplied it does still cost a Frost rune every time it's used.  It can also be resisted (Frost Mages especially can do that a lot) and for extra hilarity, reflected.  It's not like their aren't counters to it out there.