Majesty 2: Auto-Diku

[Tarami]

Open the inn interface (the innterface, haaar.) and they will come. Eventually.

Sjofn,
it's cool to like it. And no, as I mentioned, I didn't play the first one. I think I will though. I don't hate MJ2 with every fibre of my being or anything, I'm just really disappointed after having looked forward to what it could have been with this concept. Obviously this discussion has also become a bit blown out of proportion, but I guess it can help any possible buyers.

[ezrast]

Heroes feel less stupid than in the first game to me. Not in any way that makes them more useful; they just tend to wander into overwhelming fights and die slightly less. It's like everybody's a rogue (which combined with their transition to melee and a somewhat saner economy makes rogues a lot less useful  ). Not that it matters, because resurrection costs are so cheap. Which really bothers me for some reason. Also, Schild is right; play on quintuple speed.

I'm liking it. Not $40 worth of liking it so far but I haven't unlocked temples yet and they should make things more interesting.

[sidereal]

If you're referring to my "review", ..

Not specifically, but we can discuss it anyway. 

A semblance of intellect wouldn't make the game pointless. Looking historically at games with claimed or actual simulation aspects, I can't come up with a game where better AI would make it less interesting, where single-minded stupidity was a feature.
...
The bottom line is, with better AI you can make a more interesting and, speaking in absolute terms, a more challenging game.

Well, to separate those two claims:  Can you make it more interesting with better AI?  Yes, probably.  But you also make it more complicated, which can just as well lead to less fun.  Interactive complexity really isn't what Majesty is going for here.  It's going for cat-herding.  The fact that the heroes aren't doing what you want is supposed to be the delightfully novel aspect of the game.  So to your 'deferred' vs 'indirect' distinction, I don't agree that they're doing pretty much what you want them to.  If you just stick a 10 gold bounty on a big boss, they're not going to do that.  You have to learn the art of nudging them toward the right goal (once you figure out what the right goal is), which is the heart of the game.  If they were sophisticated enough to pretty much do what they'd do if you had direct control, then they may as well just give you direct control.  It'd be a hell of a lot easier to program.  The larger the gap between what you'd make them do and what they'd actually do (within reason), the more you're getting that experience. 

Second, can you make it more challenging with better AI?  I'm not sure that's true.  Good enemy AI is challenging.  Good hero AI reduces challenge, sort of by definition of 'good'.  I mean you could make them twice as AI-complex, but half as likely to do something useful (like, add bathrooms or something), but I'm not sure what the point of that would be, since I don't think it would add any fun.  Making them twice as effective would moot most of the game.  I agree that you don't want to confuse 'challenge' with 'frustration' and if you find your little idiots running away from goals more frustrating than amusing, it's probably not a good game for you.

[Ingmar]

It works on my laptop!

The game is pretty much Majesty 1 reskinned so far. Most of the things that Tarami complains about are deliberate features from the first game, IMO. If the heroes had smarter AI the game wouldn't be the same. The opening video should make it abundantly clear they're not supposed to be perfectly smart/obedient. That's kind of the central point of the game.

Remember, what is being "simmed" here with the heroes. It is the often stupid, sometimes self-destructive, always self-interested behavior of players in a D&D game. It isn't a realistic simulation, but it isn't supposed to be. I mean, Dwarf Fortress would suck if everyone always did what you wanted them to, right?

[Mavor]

Just to add..

I never played Majesty 1, so i'm unsure about how much was brought over from that game. However, this really feels like a map on W3 played sometimes called "square defense" (not 100% sure about the name). In that map modification, one of the builder types you could choose allowed you to build stuff and play almost exactly the same as majesty 2 plays now... albeit four years ago. In that map modification, you start off with your builder, and then you build some buildings that either spawn heroes, let them buy stuff, or upgrade their weapons.. exactly the same to majesty 2. Even the focus of the game, to survive against mobs coming in offscreen, was the same. However, it was pulled off better, because the mobs being summoned in offscreen were actually being sent from opposing teams of players (the map was 4vs4vs4vs4).

Funny how a four year old warcraft 3 map modification allows for more people and more fun using almost the exact same concept as this fully fledged and developed game. I mean seriously, wtf?? Couldn't the modified square defense map creators just take their map and sell it as a competitor to majesty 2? What a waste of time and money, creating Majesty 2, when a simple mod of warcraft 3 performed better.

[Calantus]

Holy subjectivity batman!

The map you're talking about sucked compared to Majesty 2. I have now countered your argument.


They really need to add random maps and let you play past victory conditions though.

[LK]

Like Dawn of Discovery? ^^

[Sjofn]

They really need to add random maps and let you play past victory conditions though.

Yeah, I'd really like a random map option too.

Shit, there was something else I was wishing for and I can't for the life of me remember what it was now. Clearly it was really important.

[Ingmar]

Was it the inexplicably missing gnomes? That made me sad.

[Sjofn]

Oh shit, yes! Yes, it was! I mean sure they weren't that awesome in Majesty 1 but still. :( They were just a gnome.

[Demonix]

Oh shit, yes! Yes, it was! I mean sure they weren't that awesome in Majesty 1 but still. :( They were just a gnome.

Gnomes were for uber repair...i always got a kick out of seeing them level up while hammering away on something.

Hell, I could soooo use them. :(

[sidereal]

Oh shit, yes! Yes, it was! I mean sure they weren't that awesome in Majesty 1 but still. :( They were just a gnome.

Hey, they're getting better at this!

[proudft]

I'M A CHAMPION!

I'm not buying this game without gnomes.  Any sound clip that sticks in my head for 10 years deserves to reappear. 

[rk47]

Bored me a lot. Quite disappointed.

Given a quest to destroy 5 towers that spam fireballs. Without specific controls on how and when your heroes move, I had to let them zerg blindly in order to get anything done. It was painful seeing the wizard arrive first, eating two fireballs before dying, then the ranger, then the rogue. Both faceplanted in seconds, before finally the knight or cleric came close and start the tanking process and playing damage sponge as the rest of the heroes zerg arrive.

[Sjofn]

Just one mission left for me. It took me a billion tries to do the DESTROY YOUR RIVALS mission.

[Ingmar]

Bored me a lot. Quite disappointed.

Given a quest to destroy 5 towers that spam fireballs. Without specific controls on how and when your heroes move, I had to let them zerg blindly in order to get anything done. It was painful seeing the wizard arrive first, eating two fireballs before dying, then the ranger, then the rogue. Both faceplanted in seconds, before finally the knight or cleric came close and start the tanking process and playing damage sponge as the rest of the heroes zerg arrive.

I forget if you have the capability to use the inn to make parties in that mission. If so, you should do so, and make sure your wizards are all in a party with a healer and ideally a warrior. That's generally a good idea for wizards in general. They're slow and easy to kill on their own, but they're really strong with support and protection.

[Aez]

Most maps are like puzzle.  For the destroy your rivals missions : took me three try until I figured out that 2 regular towers + a dwarven one was enough to old the rogue/archer side with out any hero defending it.

[Sjofn]

I'm not sure how many tries it ACTUALLY took me, but definitely more than I am accustomed to. Tower placement was one of the things that took me a while to settle on a system that worked.

[caladein]

This is today's D2D Holiday sale at $7.50.

Must... resist...

[Samwise]

I snapped it up during the recent Steam sale because it sounded interesting enough to pick up on the cheap.  Haven't dared to try it yet.

[caladein]

Ah yes.  It was the same day as L4D2 & KotOR so I didn't notice it.

[Samwise]

Necro!  I finally fired up this game last night and am loving it so far.

What exactly does putting dudes into a party do?  Do they all stick together all the time, even when just chilling out in town, or does it just force them to do quests together?  Or none of the above?

[Aez]

I never noticed if they hang out it town together but they definitely stick together for quest.

[Samwise]

So heroes that do fairly well solo (like, say, rangers that I want to be doing exploration quests) are better left unpartied, whereas heroes that need support in combat (like rogues and wizards) should be grouped up whenever possible?

[Aez]

Yes.

I usually grouped my rangers so they stood a chance while exploring.

[Ingmar]

So heroes that do fairly well solo (like, say, rangers that I want to be doing exploration quests) are better left unpartied, whereas heroes that need support in combat (like rogues and wizards) should be grouped up whenever possible?

I often let rogues go solo too, since they're easy to sway to do stuff with cheap flags. I throw the elves in the groups instead.

[Samwise]

If I build multiple guilds of the same type, do I need to redo the upgrades at all of them, or does the tech apply to all heroes regardless of what guild they hatched from?

[Aez]

You have to redo all the upgrade.  It's still worth it.  2 Priestess guild is especially useful.

[Samwise]

I did the dragon quest last night and finally threw something like 20 high-level guys at it.  3 of them outlived the dragon.  

[sidereal]

You need to micromanage your spells on bosses.  Lots of healing and direct damage.

[Samwise]

For some reason I find the slow buildup followed by a massive zerg rush of death much more satisfying.

[Samwise]

So, that goddamn Gold of Chyort quest.

IIRC the way I finally did this one was to build almost no upgrades and get the trading posts up ASAP.  I think I went with ranger/warrior/cleric, maybe rogue too.  Send explorers everywhere to find the trading post spots and the rogue's guilds, but wait to explore the northeast until your guys aren't too busy, then when you get the escort mission put a huge defense flag on it (and use the majesty healing spell if necessary).  

Between the escort reward and the piles of gold from the rogue guilds you've almost got enough to win the map; just need to avoid spending too much of that sweet cash along the way, and then let the trading posts deliver the rest.  Once it gets toward day 30 or so you've got so many elementals gangraping you that it's impossible to keep making money, so you have to win early and get out of there.

[Ingmar]

It was long enough ago that I don't remember 100% sure what I did on this mission, but it pretty much boils down to 'kill the rogue houses (and build economic crap and towers)'. They give you a large gold boost each time, like 5 grand. If you can manage to guard that merchant guy you get even more but that can be tough if he wakes up early in the mission. You shouldn't need a ton of heroes, I don't think I built anything but the basic 4 types on this one? It is probably worth partying them up to save ressurection costs.

I don't remember if you have the income++ clicky power yet on this one but if you do obviously it will help a lot.

EDIT: I basically just said all the same stuff as Samwise.  But if you have the money thing, mash that sucker whenever it is off cooldown!

[Hawkbit]

Thanks, I'll give those a shot tomorrow.  I know there's a trick to it, just didn't find it yet. 

[Samwise]

Yeah, it took me a bunch of tries but when I finally got it I had 40k by around day 20.  It's really hard to break yourself of the habit of upgrading stuff for the long haul, but for this one map it's essential.