I Have No Words....

[Khaldun]

Schild in general has a hard time grasping that some people are not him.

As far as research goes, I can pretty much tell when someone's research goes no farther than what's online. What's online is incredibly rich, though a lot of people don't really have search skills that proficiently bring in the biggest hauls of information. But there is still plenty of information of various kinds that is not online, and the quality of research that aims to do more than just rehash a Wikipedia entry is measurably enhanced if someone can draw upon a sizeable base of published as well as online information.

[schild]

Ah fuck that. Schools, particularly anything a cut above community college, have better libraries for research than any city library, not to mention as has been said, they can't get the funding they need to be truly useful. I see you all disagreeing, but you're disagreeing on bad points. If you're telling me it's for research, I'd imagine most people who have to do research either 1) do it all online (bad or not isn't the point) or 2) do it at their schools library, which is often huge and book-centric instead of media-centric.

Who are these 45 year old poor people that need to do research, Sky? If you want to argue that books should be made to poor people, I'm gonna argue that health care should and we should destroy the public library system and get rid of literacy socialism and replace it with health socialism. Why? Because it's a stupid goddamn point for you to be arguing. If you're gonna make a case, make it. Don't try to make a nebulous one around a molehill of BS.

Edit: Gah, page bump:

What kind of research are you talking about? We get all kinds of stuff from people confused about tax forms (state dumped that on us the same year they cut our funding and raised their salaries) to folks working on cars (chilton's) or looking up blue book value, to people looking up home repairs (I learned how to drywall and lay masonry mostly out of library books), there's a huge spectrum of things people come here to learn.

You used yourself as an example (piss poor argument, and one where you probably could've found the information on the internet faster) and gave a bunch of reasons people use public computers. Doesn't really sound like things BOOKS would be needed for.

[HaemishM]

Not everyone in America can afford a computer or Internet access. Nor can they afford to go to even community college. Or they live in East Bumblefuck and can't get broadband and may be lucky to get dialup.

As much as I love the Internet, it can't serve every need unless we start issuing kids computers straight from the womb.

[Sky]

[Mrbloodworth]

Anyway, I hope all of you stay lucky and successful and never have to learn why libraries are so important to society.

I'm willing to listen to the argument.

Not everyone in America can afford a computer or Internet access.

I think that's why they put them in the library.

As much as I love the Internet, it can't serve every need unless we start issuing kids computers straight from the womb.

Last I checked, schools were doing just that. Many high-school kids are now issued laptops.

For the record, it is sad that things like library, schools and education are always getting cut for other, more important things, like bonuses and wars.
Also, as an aside, my entire career is based off self teaching and gained knowledge thought the internet. Librarys carry nothing relevant to my current job, and I hold no degrees (A regret of mines, yes). School of hard knocks and all that. Sure i may be deficient in spelling and grammar (Hi!), but I'm not doing badly at all considering where I came from and what i had to do to get here. I am also, still correcting work done by said degree holders, in fact its about 60% of my job. Fix the dam smart people who get paid more than me mistakes. Dicks.

[schild]

Anyway, I hope all of you stay lucky and successful and never have to learn why libraries are so important to society.

I'm willing to listen to the argument.

So am I, if he was willing to make one.

Not everyone in America can afford a computer or Internet access. Nor can they afford to go to even community college. Or they live in East Bumblefuck and can't get broadband and may be lucky to get dialup.

As much as I love the Internet, it can't serve every need unless we start issuing kids computers straight from the womb.

It's true, not everyone can. But we're not talking about libraries at this point, we're talking about free netcafes without food and drink.

[HaemishM]

Right, but if the Internet is such a huge resource for research, people who can't afford net cafes, or their own computers need a place to research stuff. Why not the library? I look at the Internet as a gigantic library without any content filter. The Internet in a library can vastly expand that library's offerings. It is a way to keep libraries relevant in changing times.

As for "you should get the Internet in your schools" absolutely you should. You been to some rural schools in shit-poor areas lately? Yeah, they don't have computers made this century either unless an angel donated them. The school systems have the same funding problems as the libraries.

[schild]

Fix the dam smart people who get paid more than me mistakes.

:groan:

[Mrbloodworth]

Right, but if the Internet is such a huge resource for research, people who can't afford net cafes, or their own computers need a place to research stuff. Why not the library? I look at the Internet as a gigantic library without any content filter. The Internet in a library can vastly expand that library's offerings. It is a way to keep libraries relevant in changing times.

As for "you should get the Internet in your schools" absolutely you should. You been to some rural schools in shit-poor areas lately? Yeah, they don't have computers made this century either unless an angel donated them. The school systems have the same funding problems as the libraries.

If you were responding to me. I think I said basically the same thing, if I didn't. Well, I agree.

[schild]

Right, but if the Internet is such a huge resource for research, people who can't afford net cafes, or their own computers need a place to research stuff. Why not the library? I look at the Internet as a gigantic library without any content filter. The Internet in a library can vastly expand that library's offerings. It is a way to keep libraries relevant in changing times.

As for "you should get the Internet in your schools" absolutely you should. You been to some rural schools in shit-poor areas lately? Yeah, they don't have computers made this century either unless an angel donated them. The school systems have the same funding problems as the libraries.

No one is going to disagree, you're saying perfectly agreeable obvious shit.

Unfortunately, libraries don't have the funding to keep up with all the ways they're expanding. That's the core issue and it's getting to the point where they're essentially unfundable and there's no question that they're one of the loss-leaders in terms of payoff for the government. And they can't really jack up late fees to something unreasonable nor can they just charge you if you're late without you coming in. All in all, it's a poorly designed business (and, by the way, it IS business) and it's not shocking that states are willing to shut them down.

[Hawkbit]

Lots of good points in here, some bad. 

Literacy rates are terrible, yes.  That's not all the libraries fault.  Our education system is not getting it done and 'no child left behind' also means 'no child gets ahead'.  Ultimately, it's the school's responsibility.  Libraries are helping where they can, but it's a band aid for a gunshot wound.  But that's for another argument. 

Our Library system (Columbus Metropolitan, #1 ranked for 2 of the last 5 years on HALPR) focuses on three target audiences:

1.  Young Minds - Homework help centers in 16+ of our 21 buildings, Bookmobiles, Ready to Read programs, Storytimes, Teen lock-ins, Volunteen programs
2.  Power Users - People using the system a LOT, reserving items across our floating collection and/or Interlibrary loans, holding meetings
3.  Virtual Users - Tech/PC users

1 and 2 are pretty straight forward.  In a city that just closed it's rec centers, we're the last line for urban youth before they get pushed into the streets.  I speak with kids on a daily basis about homework - asking if they finished or helping if I get time away from customers.  Some of these kids have nobody else in their lives that will help them in this area.  So we give them a place to focus and it's making a difference. 

Our virtual users are what you are all talking about.  Some of you seem to think everyone has access to a computer where ever they are, but that's not the case.  I work in a small, urban branch with 24 public computers that ALWAYS have a wait time (sometimes the wait is over 2 hours).  Every day people are sent to the library by any number of companies or public systems that need to use our computers.  Trying to get a phone setup when you've got poor credit?  Every day I have people that have to come in to do online applications for that stuff.  Unemployment?  Yep, that's got to be done online now too. 

Hell, we're even running a Job Help Center right now, every single day just to help people get a leg up.  I'm teaching a seminar about resume building next week, for example.  Other seminars next week include how to job search and interview tips.  You can't even apply for 98% of jobs right now without a computer.

It's simply absurd to say we can do without them. 
 

[01101010]

Let's just tax soda and use the revenue to keep our free book rental stores open 

[Cyrrex]

I don't know if you're being snarky, but I'd sign that.

[gryeyes]

What?! Tax dollars to keep communal centers of knowledge and learning open to the general public? Preposterous, what possible benefit could that be to our society as a whole. Soon the arguement will be why require literacy at all since we have the technology to function without it. The beneficial programs my local library offered when growing up was nothing short of awesome.

[Johny Cee]

Schild's argument, which is a good one and people have ignored, is that literacy programs don't have very much to do with libraries or library programs.

Literacy education programs for adults (including alot of English as a Second Language type stuff) gets funded as literacy programs by both state and Fed, generally through some kind of umbrella org like the old Literacy Volunteers of America or the new Proliteracy umbrella org. 

Libraries generally do run some joint events with literacy orgs, or share some of their space with tutors, but the bulk of literacy education has very little to do with libraries.


In general, funding for adult literacy is handled through specific programs for adult literacy, some workforce retraining grants, and the various ESL/citizenship and civics grants.  Children's literacy gets run through school programs or through children's literacy programs that funnel through non-profits specifically set up to promote children's literacy.  Not through libraries.


Going back to the original story:  it's flat-out a political ploy of the "OMG think of the Children!" variety.  I've been on the board of a literacy org for the last five years, and each year New York State has done the exact same thing to literacy programs.....  just so someone can make political hay off of the issue and get a few nice photo ops and press releases from it.  The funding is usually back up to what was originally requested in the next version of the budget bill.

[caladein]

Ah fuck that. Schools, particularly anything a cut above community college, have better libraries for research than any city library, not to mention as has been said, they can't get the funding they need to be truly useful.

If you're talking about local branches, sure.  The central branches for cities like Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Boston, or DC () are nothing to laugh at though.

Once you discount the medical/law collections (in the case of UCLA), the lack of bums, and the cute girls, there's really no reason for me to make the trek to Westwood (UCLA) or the Eastside (CSULA) instead of just going to the Central Library.

[lamaros]

Obviously someone uses libraries for research or there wouldn't be so many university law, medical and reference libraries.

Are you replying to me? Huh?

Who uses local libraries for research apart from school kids?

What kind of research are you talking about? We get all kinds of stuff from people confused about tax forms (state dumped that on us the same year they cut our funding and raised their salaries) to folks working on cars (chilton's) or looking up blue book value, to people looking up home repairs (I learned how to drywall and lay masonry mostly out of library books), there's a huge spectrum of things people come here to learn. Go to your local library and walk around for a while. That's one of the great things about working here, we get to see members of the community interested in bettering themselves or learning more about the challenges of daily life...and help them with that.

Are you honesty saying that someone can't find that sort of information on the internet?

I'm not saying some people don't use local libraries for those things, I'm just saying that I don't see how they are things that local libraries offer that people can't get elsewhere.

I love local libraries. But since I left high school I have only used them for getting out books that I haven't wanted/been able to buy myself. I use them for recreational reading but not much else. They are rarely comprehensive enough for any other purposes. Granted I am still a uni student. But once I finish I can still be a member of the uni libraries, I can access the state library, I have a computer, and so on and so forth.

Maybe there are some differences because I life in Australia, I don't know, but I don't really see how much libraries offer directly form an educational standpoint. Which is not to say I don't value them and don't think they serve an important role, I just don't think they're as important for 'research' and some of the other things you are mentioning.

[schild]

Ah fuck that. Schools, particularly anything a cut above community college, have better libraries for research than any city library, not to mention as has been said, they can't get the funding they need to be truly useful.

If you're talking about local branches, sure.

I'm only talking about local branches. As someone who lived in DC for 5 years, pretty sure there are some libraries there I'd like not to see shut down.

[Sky]

each year New York State has done the exact same thing to literacy programs.....  just so someone can make political hay off of the issue and get a few nice photo ops and press releases from it.  The funding is usually back up to what was originally requested in the next version of the budget bill.

Sure. That's why we've been cut every year for the last ten and currently at 1991 funding levels, not adjusted for inflation.

Are you honesty saying that someone can't find that sort of information on the internet?

Yes. That's what I'm saying. Well, you might find some half-assed info, and occasionally I find some good stuff. Problem is most people are very inept at gauging what is good information from reliable sources, which is where having information professionals comes in. Also, again using my personal case because IANAL(ibrarian): I found some decent info for tuck-pointing mortar after digging around on the internet for an hour or two, but the most informative info that actually helped me with the project was from books with long and detailed information and tons of step-by-step photos laid out in a professional format. Even so, a librarian probably could've gotten me to better websites.

And the chilton's, I don't see how the internet could be better. Would you print out the entire manual? Assuming you have a computer, printer and internet connection. If you don't, printing at most places (even here) can get spendy at the levels of a thick manual. Or just check out the chilton's for your truck and lay it on the hood while you work.

Granted I am still a uni student. But once I finish I can still be a member of the uni libraries, I can access the state library, I have a computer, and so on and so forth.

See what you did there? Also, do you read a lot? I read a lot of both fiction and non-fiction. If you read a lot and aren't wealthy, you should love libraries. I guess I can understand the ignorance if you don't read anything beyond a Prima guide.

Really, do you guys seriously not understand how important free access of information for everyone is important? That's like redstate levels of 

[HaemishM]

Are you honesty saying that someone can't find that sort of information on the internet?

I'm not saying some people don't use local libraries for those things, I'm just saying that I don't see how they are things that local libraries offer that people can't get elsewhere.

While those things CAN be found elsewhere, what we are saying is that some people CAN'T find them elsewhere because: 1) don't have the money for a computer, 2) have crappy Internet if at all, 3) don't know how to use a computer, 4) or are just plain poor and can't afford any of that including buying the books.

[Signe]

Obviously someone uses libraries for research or there wouldn't be so many university law, medical and reference libraries.

Are you replying to me? Huh?

You seem awfully paranoid lately.  Are New Age Travelers sneaking into your garage and stealing your lawnmower?  That would make me paranoid.  Or, at least, very nervous.  Anyway, no, I'm not replying to you.

[lamaros]

You seem awfully paranoid lately.  Are New Age Travelers sneaking into your garage and stealing your lawnmower?  That would make me paranoid.  Or, at least, very nervous.  Anyway, no, I'm not replying to you.

My brother has become a stoner and his friends are at my house every night of the week smoking... maybe that has something to do with it?

Sky, you're making this thread ironic with your selective discussion points.

[Sky]

Sky, you're making this thread ironic with your selective discussion points.

Ok. Point to the place on the doll where I give a fuck.

[Sheepherder]

 

[Miguel]

There's also essentially nothing to guarantee that information one finds on the internets is actually correct.  At least with a book you have some semblance of fact checking and peer review (although not universally true, the chances are certainly much much higher).

Didn't Steven Colbert prove this point rather directly?

Shit, I could put up a page that says you don't need to claim tips as income on your W2 form...just because it's online doesn't mean it's smart to follow that advice.  But where would we go to double check that what we research online is correct?

I wish such a place existed....

[Sheepherder]

Didn't Steven Colbert prove this point rather directly?

Baby carrots are trying to turn me gay.