EQ 'Next'

[Murgos]

I'm seriously wondering if ANYONE posting in this thread has played EQ2.  In combat you are not pressing 15-20 buttons, in any class.

[Nebu]

I think it varies a lot by class.  I know that the game felt a lot more active to me playing my brigand than it did on my defiler. 

[Draegan]

Some people here would rather push 11111111 than 12314516 or whatever.

Bullshit

In WOW you press 123456 in any normal fight.

In EQ2 you press 1234567890abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1234567890abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyz

Neither is tactical.

[Murgos]

In EQ2 you press 1234567890abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1234567890abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyz

No.  You don't.

[statisticalfool]

Some people here would rather push 11111111 than 12314516 or whatever.

Bullshit

In WOW you press 123456 in any normal fight.

In EQ2 you press 1234567890abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1234567890abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyz

Neither is tactical.

(Point noted about EQ2 not being as button intensive as people make it out to be)

This, and this, and this.  You can certainly be made to process more information, to press more buttons, to have to maintain more buffs, and to have to not stand in more fires. But as far as tactical decisions, the whole point of being a competent raider is to minimize the amount of tactical thinking you have to do and replace it with stimulus/response, and efficient largely one way communication.

Interestingly, the best gameplay is this zone where things have gone to shit, but it's not a wipe. I'm not sure how to replicate that in PvE on a reliable basis.

[Numtini]

But as far as tactical decisions, the whole point of being a competent raider is to minimize the amount of tactical thinking you have to do and replace it with stimulus/response, and efficient largely one way communication.

No, that's what WoW raiding is about. EQ2 raiding is somewhat different. It may not be quite the same as a full combat sim of some kind, but in my experience it's far less rote memorization and far more knowing and playing your class.

A roll of quarters could play a shaman in WoW.

[Rendakor]

Some people here would rather push 11111111 than 12314516 or whatever.

Bullshit

In WOW you press 123456 in any normal fight.

In EQ2 you press 1234567890abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1234567890abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyz

Neither is tactical.

Ok, I guess you didn't read the rest of my post. However, I'll provide an example. In WoW as a rogue, you spend most of your time spamming your primary attack, which you use to set up other attacks. Your rotation will look something like 1123114115115115115. A brigand in EQ2 on the other hand, has a LOT more attacks, which will result in your rotation looking something like 1234567, shift+1234567, ctrl+1234. There is a lot less repetitive use of a single ability in EQ2 than in WoW.

[eldaec]

In EQ2 tanks, rogues, and priests do not simply rotate abilities at all unless you are fighting mobs well below the capabilities of the group.

Mages might be a little different, suspect they were closer to a rotation than other classes.

[Grimwell]

Every class I've played (played seriously, not just created for work) in EQ2 has some form of pattern to it. This is because EQ2 is a game and all games can be distilled down to a very simple list of interactions that advance play.

On a comparative level, the average mid to high level EQ2 player is going to have a large stack of buttons on toolbars around their screen. Some are tied to key class abilities used in every combat, some are for crafting, some are situational, and some are just for convenience and fun. Depending on how someone plays, they could get lost in the buttons and ignore the action and watch only the UI in a nasty combat. That noted, the game isn't so darn complex that you *have* to ignore the action in favor of the UI. If you are doing more than a trial and put in some time with the game, you can manage your core abilities without having to look.

[Dtrain]

I'm seriously wondering if ANYONE posting in this thread has played EQ2.  In combat you are not pressing 15-20 buttons, in any class.

eldaec has 9 heals on his ability list (counting wards as heals, natch.) With the remainder of his debuffs, damage, group buffs, utilities and as yet unmentioned AA abilities, I'm pretty sure he's cycling an additional 6 - 11 keys per combat.

This is all verbal masturbation at this point anyways - while it's been far too long since I've played to give you a similar list for my guardian, I can tell you that one of the reasons I stopped playing was that I did not appreciate the "chewing gum for the fingers" that was my hotkey rotation. And I certainly didn't feel that I had too many strategic options. I think it's safe to say that while some are o.k. with the number of button presses in EQ2, others are not. And it has nothing to do with how awesome one group is vs. the other.

Also, I think we're getting sucked into a WOW vs. EQ2 thing here. If WOW and EQ2 represent polar opposites on the question of hotkey presses / ability selection, I think they could both be a little closer to the center.

[Sheepherder]

Also, I think we're getting sucked into a WOW vs. EQ2 thing here. If WOW and EQ2 represent polar opposites on the question of hotkey presses / ability selection, I think they could both be a little closer to the center.

WoW is everything from the centre towards the minimalist.  Take an Arms warrior for example:

Main Attacks:

Mortal Strike
Slam
Rend
Overpower
Execute
Bladestorm

Rage Burn:

Cleave
Heroic Strike

Short Cooldowns:

Sweeping Strikes
Bloodrage
Berserker Rage
Heroic Throw
Shattering Throw

[Ingmar]

Also, I think we're getting sucked into a WOW vs. EQ2 thing here. If WOW and EQ2 represent polar opposites on the question of hotkey presses / ability selection, I think they could both be a little closer to the center.

We've created a false dichotomy there, though; WoW is not actually the extreme other end of the simplicity spectrum.

[Draegan]

EQ would be simplicity.

[eldaec]

I'm seriously wondering if ANYONE posting in this thread has played EQ2.  In combat you are not pressing 15-20 buttons, in any class.

eldaec has 9 heals on his ability list (counting wards as heals, natch.) With the remainder of his debuffs, damage, group buffs, utilities and as yet unmentioned AA abilities, I'm pretty sure he's cycling an additional 6 - 11 keys per combat.

Except you don't cycle the heals. You use them in 9 different circumstances (arguably you cycle one of them - the ordinary ward - in the specific 'not much going on' circumstance).

[Murgos]

eldaec has 9 heals on his ability list (counting wards as heals, natch.) With the remainder of his debuffs, damage, group buffs, utilities and as yet unmentioned AA abilities, I'm pretty sure he's cycling an additional 6 - 11 keys per combat.

No, he's using different levels of the same spell so it looks like OMG LOTS! of different abilities.  I'm guessing that this is so he can try to be a little extra efficient with his mana but I'm pretty sure you can do the same thing in WoW if you wanted to and it's not actually required to play the game.

[eldaec]

eldaec has 9 heals on his ability list (counting wards as heals, natch.) With the remainder of his debuffs, damage, group buffs, utilities and as yet unmentioned AA abilities, I'm pretty sure he's cycling an additional 6 - 11 keys per combat.

No, he's using different levels of the same spell so it looks like OMG LOTS! of different abilities.  I'm guessing that this is so he can try to be a little extra efficient with his mana but I'm pretty sure you can do the same thing in WoW if you wanted to and it's not actually required to play the game.

No, we covered that on the last page, we're talking about the number of damage mitigation spell lines that a defiler has, not the dozens of individual spells you get if you count the tiers seperately.

[Malakili]

 I'm guessing that this is so he can try to be a little extra efficient with his mana but I'm pretty sure you can do the same thing in WoW if you wanted to and it's not actually required to play the game.

They killed this back around the end of Burning Crusade, spells cost a straight % of mana now regardless of the rank of the spell.  They did this to purposefully destroy downranking, I can't really remember the rationale, I guess people were spamming incredibly low mana spells but their huge amounts of +spellpower were just becoming too powerful (though frankly, people were doing this as far back as Molten Core, so I dunno).

[Kageh]

They killed this back around the end of Burning Crusade, spells cost a straight % of mana now regardless of the rank of the spell.  They did this to purposefully destroy downranking, I can't really remember the rationale, I guess people were spamming incredibly low mana spells but their huge amounts of +spellpower were just becoming too powerful (though frankly, people were doing this as far back as Molten Core, so I dunno).

You have the right reason. But historically, they already had nerfed it a lot by the beginning of TBC by modifying the amount of +spellpower to only work 100% on the last two ranks of the spells known to you. The flat % mana cost was just the final death blow to downranking.

[Ingmar]

The basic idea behind it is downranking was killing the mana management aspect of the game for healers. Although it turns out they still have a ways to go on that front, making that change did help make it a little better.

[Malakili]

They killed this back around the end of Burning Crusade, spells cost a straight % of mana now regardless of the rank of the spell.  They did this to purposefully destroy downranking, I can't really remember the rationale, I guess people were spamming incredibly low mana spells but their huge amounts of +spellpower were just becoming too powerful (though frankly, people were doing this as far back as Molten Core, so I dunno).

You have the right reason. But historically, they already had nerfed it a lot by the beginning of TBC by modifying the amount of +spellpower to only work 100% on the last two ranks of the spells known to you. The flat % mana cost was just the final death blow to downranking.

Ah thats right, now I remember.  I recall spamming rank 4 healing touch back in vanilla because it had a shorter cast time, and you could spam it with no regard for mana, and was still hefty enough with enough +healing.  I had forgotten that they did the initial nerf, and then the later nerf.

Either way, I remember being annoyed by it at the time because I liked being able to mix up ranks depending on the situation rather than doing the chain-cast / cancel if tank is full max rank healing touch that came later. (then of course healy tree form changed everything).

[Nonentity]

But as far as tactical decisions, the whole point of being a competent raider is to minimize the amount of tactical thinking you have to do and replace it with stimulus/response, and efficient largely one way communication.

No, that's what WoW raiding is about. EQ2 raiding is somewhat different. It may not be quite the same as a full combat sim of some kind, but in my experience it's far less rote memorization and far more knowing and playing your class.

A roll of quarters could play a shaman in WoW.

This pretty much sealed the deal for me as far as raiding in EQ2. Anything this asinine makes my brain hurt.


http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/The_Djinn_Master's_Prism

[Xurtan]

I must be odd, I like raids like that.

[Ingmar]

That sounds like a fight against the interface more than a fight against the monster.

[palmer_eldritch]

My EQ2 illusionist had a lot of different abilities that actually did a lot of different things.

I found it a lot of fun to play. On the other hand, one reason I won't go back to EQ2 is because I know I'll never remember what half the abilities actually do (could just make a new character I guess).

[Rendakor]

That fight sounds really really annoying. It's the sort of thing that'd work out ok in a P&P game but not in an MMO.

[Nebu]

That fight sounds really really annoying. It's the sort of thing that'd work out ok in a P&P game but not in an MMO.

It's Tomb of Horrors level of annoying.  I don't think an encounter like that ever works unless it's so Monty Haul that players are willing to endure it.

There you go... two nerdy P&P references as a bonus. 

[veredus]

My EQ2 illusionist had a lot of different abilities that actually did a lot of different things.

I found it a lot of fun to play. On the other hand, one reason I won't go back to EQ2 is because I know I'll never remember what half the abilities actually do (could just make a new character I guess).

I have tried going back to EQ2 twice and the above is the exact reason why I have never lasted long. It's a pain to relearn to play my brigand and warlock since there are so many options and I can't bring myself to start all over.  

[tkinnun0]

Ahhahahahaa!

I could see me doing that once in a single-player game, then using cheat codes thereafter.

[Murgos]

Of Eldaec's listed spells these are actually spells that would be in a rotation in group combat against a single target:

Single target ward
Group ward

These would be cast once per target situational use buttons:

Debuff + DD
WIS Debuff + Dot
Haste Debuff + Dot
dot +manaleech
haste debuff
attribiute debuff
dps debuff
str/agi/wis debuff

These would be O-SHIT! single use, very situational buttons:

Small heal (costs health)
Big Heal (costs Health)
group heal (costs health)
Instant single target ward (emergency big ward with long cooldown)
Instant group ward
pbaoe Turret ward
fucked up thing that grants a bigger ward on more injured targets
aoe fear
fear
battle rez
cure
group cure
group demez

Next you have the occasional, once per group/very long (multi hour) timer buttons:

Health+power buff
group resistence buff
group health buff
group health and STR buff
HP regen selfbuff
group heal proc buff
slow debuff proc
death prevention buff
dot proc buff
rez
rez+power regen
aoe rez

And then finally the probably don't ever get used in a good group buttons:

aoe dot + res debuff
aoe manaleech
aoe dot that gains power vs low health

The stuff about EQ2 being a festival of panicked button mashing is really just pure invention.  A damage skill based class like a monk or a wizard will have a higher number of spells in 'rotation' but that's still only 5 or 6ish.

[Lantyssa]

The stuff about EQ2 being a festival of panicked button mashing is really just pure invention.  A damage skill based class like a monk or a wizard will have a higher number of spells in 'rotation' but that's still only 5 or 6ish.

It's not panicked button mashing, there are just too many.  Both my Bruiser and Shadowknight had about 20 buttons I used in every combat.  That is not an exaggeration.  It is quite literal and were I subscribed I would be happy to show a screenshot.

I never panicked since combat there is slow enough.  I did, however, only stare at my bar clicking buttons instead of actually watching what was going on.  The only 'problem' is that I tended to not notice things I could interrupt since I was so focused on the bar.  Surviving wasn't an issue, only my enjoyment of combat.

[trias_e]

The stuff about EQ2 being a festival of panicked button mashing is really just pure invention

I played 3 classes to level 30.  By that time, all of them had 7-14 abilities that I used mindlessly and without variation in every combat on a predetermined, maximal efficiency rotation that are obtainable using basic math (based on effect and cooldown cycling).  These classes were defiler, bruiser, and paladin.  Defiler was the least mindless of these, as you have to more tactifully apply wards and such, but yet just as boring as their abilities were so damn underwhelming and combat lasted forever.  Note that this applies to soloing...in groups with my defiler things were different as I would just basically cast wards only.  Although things were not really different for the other two classes.

I'm sure that end game is much different, but I can only account for my experiences, which were lower level and almost exclusively solo.

[eldaec]

  I did, however, only stare at my bar clicking buttons instead of actually watching what was going on. 

I think this more related to positioning (the only meaningful thing you can see in the main view) being irrelevant to combat in all these games.

The only reason to watch what is going on in simpler games like wow is that you don't have anything else to do.

[Rendakor]

Some people equate "watching what's going on" with fun.

[Nebu]

Some people equate "watching what's going on" with fun.

CoH proved why most people play MMO's.  It's for the phat lewtz.   Ultimately it doesn't matter how fun your combat is (see also AoC), if you don't have an elaborate loot treadmill your title will suffer.  

[Lantyssa]

We call them "raiders". 

Raiders like watching bars.  I like watching the action.  Seeing characters hit things or spells being flung about.  That's what I mean by "what's going on".  I don't want to see the mechanics of the battle.