EQ 'Next'

[Kageru]

The next real step for MMOs is combat that targets a specific space, not a mob. Aim for the head or torso. Cast AE spells that have to anticipate a mob's location after casting time ends. A game with real, true collision to an extent that you could play football or basketball with the engine would be nice.

Fallen Earth? And I assume the instance based shooter hybrids like crime craft (lol) and global agenda.

That said I'm still not sure how these are going to solve the FPS sensitivity to lag, or how demanding it is of server power.

[eldaec]

You're all fucking crazy.

I'm perfectly happy with several dozen ability buttons, the more the merrier, so long as they all do something slightly different. Even if it's just 'power efficient dd' 'time efficient dd' 'really big long cast dd for alpha' and so on. I take the point about EQ2, it was a little confusing when you had six spells on the same cooldown timer that did the same thing, that doesn't really count as separate abilities and just made the UI awkward, that said, to be honest lern2hotbar noob.

If picking the right ability isn't the point of combat in these things I don't know wtf is.

Simple rule of thumb : if I don't need to use a mouse because I ran out of keys to assign shit to, then you haven't given me enough spells yet.

There is no such thing as too many abilities.

[Ingmar]

I thought the EQ2 problem being described was there were 6 different abilities that did the same thing on DIFFERENT cooldowns?

[PalmTrees]

3 abilities is obviously too few. 36 is too many. There's a sweet spot somewhere in between.

For me, it's 10. If I have to hit some kind of Ctrl-Alt-Del-Funct-Ent-Spc-NumLoc-F12 combo to fire off an ability, I'm probably just going to forget about it and learn to make do without it.

I'm like that as well. I'm currently playing Fallen Earth and even though I've used up the 1 to = and all my numpad keys, there's still abilities I'd have to alt- or crtl- for and they never get used.

[eldaec]

I thought the EQ2 problem being described was there were 6 different abilities that did the same thing on DIFFERENT cooldowns?

Each spell has about 10 versions, each version is just a scaled up copy of the last (minor ass rodgering, lesser ass rodgering, ass rodgering, greater ass rodgering etc). They are all on the same cooldown.

When EQ2 launched, they also had arbitrary and only vaguely connected names (ass poke, bottom shock, sodomy, assageddon etc) which meant much fiddling with hotbars.

As far as I know there were no identical abilities on different cooldowns.

[Ingmar]

If that's how it works then yeah, I don't really get the complaint. (Other than the figuring-out-which-is-your-best-rank issue obviously.)

[eldaec]

Just looked up the list of spell lines for my EQ2 class (defiler)

My hotbars would have these on different cooldowns.


Small heal (costs health)
Big Heal (costs Health)
group heal (costs health)

Single target ward
Instant single target ward (emergency big ward with long cooldown)
Group ward
Instant group ward
pbaoe Turret ward
fucked up thing that grants a bigger ward on more injured targets

Debuff + DD
WIS Debuff + Dot
Haste Debuff + Dot
aoe dot + res debuff
aoe manaleech
dot +manaleech
aoe dot that gains power vs low health

Health+power buff
group resistence buff
group health buff
group health and STR buff
HP regen selfbuff
group heal proc buff
slow debuff proc
death prevention buff
dot proc buff

haste debuff
attribiute debuff
aoe fear
dps debuff
fear
str/agi/wis debuff

rez
rez+power regen
aoe rez
battle rez

cure
group cure
group demez





The rez spells could be rationalised, but that aside, this is a sensible number of spells, obviously you need to add AAs etc on to this.

[Draegan]

You're broken.

[Rendakor]

I'm with eldaec, I like the diversity EQ2's ability choices, rather than WoW's "less is more" approach.

[Ingmar]

I'm with eldaec, I like the diversity EQ2's ability choices, rather than WoW's "less is more" approach.

Eh it isn't like WoW is Diablo. Realistically speaking most classes have around 15-20 buttons that they'll push in various situations, some much more. A lot of them are situational but it isn't like you can really sum up an arcane mage for example as a two button class, despite it having 2 main abilities it uses as primary dps abilities. It still has a whole suite of buffs, defensive spells, CC, utility spells, etc.

[Xurtan]

EQII was pretty button mashy, but I never really had a problem with that. My Dirge had/has seven hotbars of twelve abilities each, and I use pretty much all of them. (Okay, so one hotbar is half-full, but still.)

I like having options.

[Rendakor]

Don't get me wrong Ingmar, I don't find the lack of buttons a problem in WoW. Just that given the choice, I'd rather have more options. In WoW, it's largely dependant on class; some classes have far more options and abilities than others.

[Numtini]

All these games are button mashy, it's whether you're hitting the same button or a bunch of them. I like the diversity.

[Kageru]

20 abilities that do similar damage with different names on the buttons is not diversity.

The WoW developers have fairly consciously been trying to move towards a reactive or combination based gameplay. Things like one ability randomly building up power points that can be used for certain instant abilitiies, or short lived debuffs applied by one attack or heal that modify the next X attacks of a certain type. So a reasonably small number of abilities can have quite complex interactions (the feral druid DPS cycle is apparently almost too complex). I certainly don't think it's made the challenge of class balance any easier though.

Both systems cost you something in terms of situational awareness. Watching the cooldown on a large number of abilities is less interesting and variable than watching and reacting to the movements of the mob and my allies. So something like the wow shaman's chain heal (heal that hits one target and then chains to 1-3 more) is good because it forces you to consider the environment on every cast.

[Numtini]

So something like the wow shaman's chain heal (heal that hits one target and then chains to 1-3 more) is good because it forces you to consider the environment on every cast.

Having played a Mystic (damage shield based healer) in EQ2 and a resto shaman in WoW, there is no comparison between the complexity of my job raiding in EQ2 vs. the relative simplicity of the shaman in WoW.

WoW healing is largely staying aimed on the tank and repeatedly rotating riptide and chain heal or riptide and LHW. For sides, I refresh the earth shield and drop the odd flame shock if I have time. That's pretty much the fight. Oh and drop heroism when the raid leader says to. Consider the environment? No. Combat moves far too fast. The entire point of chain heal is that you don't have to think about it, it heals whomever is sickest. The most you do is cast it on yourself if you or other casters have damage. I don't have any debuffs. Buffs are totems before the fight. If there's going to be poison/disease, curing is done by a totem.

EQ2, otoh, involves rotating a group and single target ward on the tank, including keeping track of how much is left on each for power conservation because the spells last longer than the recast timers. Figuring if the single target ward has enough left on it to cast it on the offtank if you don't have another shaman class or whether there's a DPS who's grabbed aggro that needs it. Direct heals to spot heal non-wardable damage on the tank and MT group. Running four spell based debuffs, some of which need to be refreshed and have major effects on the fight others of which are situational. Doing melee damage with a few different attacks, each of which has it's own debuff or other effect. Curing both individual and group (each classes group cure only handles some types of damage). And while my mystic attacks don't require you to be behind or to the side of the mob, if you want to live, you usually need to watch positioning. While generally we don't rez, we all have in combat rez's, in my case I have an uber AOE group one on a long timer, and if necros and dirges get behind in rezzing or there's an entire group that needs to be brought back up, I have to balance that against the casting time which is longer usually than my wards last and can endanger the tank.

While I never raided on my dirge, their attacks require positioning, sometimes behind, sometimes to the side. Each different attack has a different debuff. You are in charge of utility rezzing. No, a million times no, these are not all buttons that do the same thing. That might be the appearance when soloing, but it most certainly is not the case when you are raiding.

[Kageru]

Well, you still need to make sure CH is actually going into a clump at least or you get no bounces, and players who are more situationally aware can get more out of it. And I wish curing was done by a totem, but given it's group only, pulsed and non-curse there's still plenty of single target curing.

Do EQ2 raid encounters have as much movement and ground effects as the WoW raids? Having to rotate 4 debuffs and attack powers while staying out of the bad stuff sounds quite painful.

I'm amazed you have a ward that survives long enough you can monitor points remaining. There's nothing in WoW really using that mechanic which come close to that level of durability.

Let alone the idea of in-combat AoE rezzes, that blows my mind.

[kondratti]

I'm amazed you have a ward that survives long enough you can monitor points remaining. There's nothing in WoW really using that mechanic which come close to that level of durability.

While everyone has their debuffs up, the wards can last quite a while, when the mob is not debuffed the ward usually gets chewed up right away and works like a pre-heal.  Debuffs used to be the key in EQ2, but I havent raided for a year, so they might have changed since then.

Having raided in both games, there is a large difference between the two.  WoW is all about the mob scripts, and each player doesnt have much to do, as long as you move when you have to, and if you try to do it outside the script, you get an Enrage.  EQ2 is all about the abilities and everyone has to do their thing when it is needed.

[Kageru]

I don't really understand that. Enrage is almost always a "you are too slow" mechanic to limit stacking healers to win even if your DPS people are mostly AFK. Which was somewhat of the EQ mechanic.

I did find there was a big difference in player activity the smaller the raid group though. WoW 10 man is a lot more interesting than 25 man (to me) because the roles are less specialised. You have to cover more ground and there's less tolerance if you lose people or timing.

[Numtini]

I'm amazed you have a ward that survives long enough you can monitor points remaining. There's nothing in WoW really using that mechanic which come close to that level of durability.

I generally pre-ward the tank, the group ward is a big pool and will go to whomever is damanged until it runs out, ie, it's 6000 points of healing for anyone who needs it, not 1000 each. That usually goes down on the first hit. But once the debuffs are in, it slows down a great deal and you have a lot of time to think about what's going on. Debuffs are huge in EQ2. Profit UI is preferred in my experience by shamans (mystics and defilers) specifically because it has a running total of how much is left on the wards and try to time it so the new one hits just as the other expires. You can also watch them and see other problems, if your single target is the primary ward and the group one is taking a lot of damage, someone has clearly grabbed aggro and it can be hard to figure how whom until the ward drops. The slower speed and additional time to think in EQ2 is which is one of the big reasons I prefer EQ2 to WoW. WoW feels to me like a choreographed dance that you learn and execute. EQ2 always felt like I was actually raiding, much more spontaneous. Much less predictable. And part of that, I think, is all the stuff that can go on because you have this great variety of things to do.

EQ2 is less don't stand in the crap stuff and a lot more jousting. Generally I was MT healer, so I didn't joust. I just ate it to keep the tank up. Fun! Also a lot more stuff with people going places and doing clickies or something.

As far as monitoring how many bounces you're getting on chain heal. I watch gridstatuschainwho and if I only see the tank is the only one getting hit by it, I might switch to LHW. But I'm spec'd for CH and I'm using the mana cost reduction totem. I think I only need one jump to come out ahead on power? Usually someone wanders into range. Also as above, it's pre-planning, the times I've raided, if we're expecting a lot of splash damage rather than picking targets to heal on the fly, instead you tell everyone ahead of time to keep their butts close together so you can AOE heal them.

[Draegan]

I thought mages and shaman were some of the more mind numbing classes in WOW.  I raided as a Shaman in TBC and it was incredibly easy, I just kept pressing the same buttons over and over.

On the other hand, I've raided as a DK (tank and dps), Warrior Tank, Disc and Holy Priest and they're all more situational classes.  I raided as a Paladin (Tank) and it's easier since you press about 3 or 4 buttons and everything works.

[Kageru]

Probably true.. I don't think the shaman is one of the most complex classes in WoW. Possibly one of the reasons it's the least popular. And I guess I'm a MT healer generally so my use of CH is more situational.

A lot of the EQ2 mechanics sound somewhat like EQ. Landing a slow made a monstrous difference to incoming DPS and AoE's were frequently handled by dodging the pulses, running out to heal or having a healer chain... I assume that's what you mean by jousting?

My guild used to have an EQ2 chapter but they sort of evaporated. Shame. But always nice to know there is another game supporting an active raid game.

[Numtini]

EQ2 is very heavily oriented around raiding, but honestly I felt that when they did the bait and switch about Velius, landing all these Velius giants on the shore and leadiing up to an announcement the new expansion would be.... Odus?! Well, I felt like a lot of wind went out of the sales of the game.

[Dtrain]

Just looked up the list of spell lines for my EQ2 class (defiler)

SNIP

The rez spells could be rationalised, but that aside, this is a sensible number of spells, obviously you need to add AAs etc on to this.

38 total abilities - not counting items and AAs, but you feel that only 4 are redundant?

It takes all kinds, I guess. I like complexity as much as the next guy, but this seems like quantity more than quality.

I notice a lot of your spells have group and single target varieties - I think it would be neat if the game were smart enough to have an option to only load 1 version of a spell, and use alt or ctrl hotkeys to fire off the group version. I'm sure some people would prefer to have all their hotkeys (group and single) loaded separately on ctrl or alt hotkey banks, so maybe I'm the wierd one here, but conceptually it just seems a lot cleaner to me. And there is the issue of abilities that shouldn't have a group version.

[Numtini]

38 total abilities - not counting items and AAs, but you feel that only 4 are redundant?

I'm counting 50 not including spec or items and I don't see that any of them are redundant.

[eldaec]

Just looked up the list of spell lines for my EQ2 class (defiler)

SNIP

The rez spells could be rationalised, but that aside, this is a sensible number of spells, obviously you need to add AAs etc on to this.

38 total abilities - not counting items and AAs, but you feel that only 4 are redundant?

No, I only think two are redundant. Still going to need rez and group-mega-rez.

[Ingmar]

38 total abilities - not counting items and AAs, but you feel that only 4 are redundant?

I'm counting 50 not including spec or items and I don't see that any of them are redundant.

Just going off the list in this thread:

- All of those debuff-one-stat + DoT type things could be redesigned for less bloat quite easily, along with the general pile of debuffs. Functionally a haste debuff and a dps debuff are basically doing the same thing, lowering a mob's damage. Etc.
- This goes double for buffs - group health buff, and also a group health+strength buff?
- Do you really need all those slightly different types of wards? The ward with cast time/ward without cast time things seem particularly redundant to me

While the shaman does have a huge pile of abilities, any one character isn't going to use all of them, more like 1/2. Shamans are really 3 different classes due to the talent specs.

[eldaec]

MY COLD DEAD HANDS

[DLRiley]

Guild Wars looks at this conversation and laughs.

[eldaec]

Despite the fact that Numtini's character is a vile tree hugging badger bothering shower avoiding hippy, she basically has this right.

The ability design is about resource management. You absolutely need a single castable ward, and an emergency instant ward, asking why is like asking why you want both a laser *and* a smart bomb in defender.

The buffs are on a different resource model, you can only cast a limited number, the point is to force a decision about which to use depending on group structure and battle situation.

Debuff choice tests understanding of what sort of damage your group is doing, and what the mobs are likely to rely on.


All of this is how EQ2 introduces decisions into battles. And besides, it means I HAVE MOAR BUTTANS.

[Ingmar]

You absolutely need a single castable ward, and an emergency instant ward

What I'm getting at is why does a ward, for example, necessarily have to have a cast time at all? You already have heals with cast times, presumably, let the ward have the instant niche all the time. Or whatever.

[eldaec]

Needs a cast time because it forces you to be at least a couple of seconds ahead of events, and can therefore have the size and costs balanced accordingly. But even if they were both instants, you'd want both because the short cool down normal version is your bread and butter, wheras the big, long cool down emergency ward is your oh shit button.



Also, I have no idea what is good about fewer buttons to push.

[Simond]

I thought mages and shaman were some of the more mind numbing classes in WOW.  I raided as a Shaman in TBC and it was incredibly easy, I just kept pressing the same buttons over and over.

Elemental shaman:
1) Does the target have flame shock on it? Y - go to 2, N - go to 4.
2) Is Lava Burst on cooldown? Y - go to 5, N - go to 3
3) LAVA BURST! Now go to 1.
4) FLAME SHOCK! Now go to 1.
5) LIGHTNING BOLT! Now go to 1.

Seriously, that's it.

[Draegan]

And in TBC it was Trinket/Elemental Mastery
Lightning Bolt about 4-5 times and then Chain lightning.

That's it.  Toss in your totems and hero/lust whenever.

[Rendakor]

It really comes down to a matter of preference. In most WoW rotations you're going to be pushing 1-3 buttons a lot, and keeping 2-3 other things up, while in EQ2 you're going to be prioritizing the use of 15-20 things. This makes WoW's combat feel more like button mashing, and EQ2's slightly more tactical. Some people here would rather push 11111111 than 12314516 or whatever.

[Setanta]

I thought mages and shaman were some of the more mind numbing classes in WOW.  I raided as a Shaman in TBC and it was incredibly easy, I just kept pressing the same buttons over and over.

Elemental shaman:
1) Does the target have flame shock on it? Y - go to 2, N - go to 4.
2) Is Lava Burst on cooldown? Y - go to 5, N - go to 3
3) LAVA BURST! Now go to 1.
4) FLAME SHOCK! Now go to 1.
5) LIGHTNING BOLT! Now go to 1.

Seriously, that's it.

I played resto (vanilla and levelling TBC because I'm a moron) -> elemental (as it was getting good in TBC then switched to enhance late TBC -> WoTLK. In MC restos had to purge (MC I know :( ) but other than that it was CH/LHW. Earth shock became useful as an interrupt then they moved that to wind shock (I think - I hit the point of WoW-overload when it was introduced). Enhance became a lot more fun, mostly because you could hit on the move and you got wolves, had to mana-regen (cant remember the damage that led to mana-back spell), watch to see how close you were to getting to full charges for an insta-bolt/chain and fiddle with totems depending on the situation. I had more fun enhance than the other 2 specs and never trained dual-spec. you had to think on your toes a bit more.

I think that's why I enjoyed Guild Wars a lot more. The spells you put on your bar and the attributes you took required thought. Sure there are only 8 options (7 if you are carrying the mandatory res sig) but if you ballsed it up, then there was no coming back. In a way, that appealed more to me than other MMOs with 11ty different buttons to mash.