Cataclysm

[caladein]

Well, this is the final phase so I imagine you've at least got another week or two.

[Hawkbit]

I just did five bosses in a row, of which we only killed one. 

Two things:

1.  Alt scrubs are in full force.
2.  I fear for what grouping will be like in the xpac.  People have gotten used to AOE killing and really don't know how to handle situations that require awareness.

[Paelos]

I just did five bosses in a row, of which we only killed one.  

Two things:

1.  Alt scrubs are in full force.
2.  I fear for what grouping will be like in the xpac.  People have gotten used to AOE killing and really don't know how to handle situations that require awareness.

As to 1, that's about what I would expect given the timing and the rewards being tossed about. As for 2, it won't be that bad. It will be hilariously awful for the first three months. Then, the groupthink will kick in, the bads will either have to revert/adapt/quit, and we'll get back to our overgeared facerolling.

EDIT: Maybe six months. 

[K9]

I had fun doing it with people I actually knew, I haven't pugged it.

Yeah, the bosses are reasonable fun and actually offer some challenge. The flamelash guy also seems to have an AoE counterspell of some sort. I know on my priest I kept getting locked out of holy for a few seconds. And you're right the fire thing is exactly like Jaraxus/BQL and PuGs are terrible at not standing in it...

[DraconianOne]

MMO-Champ reckons the Shattering (aka Patch 4.03a) may happen next week given that it's just happened on PTR.

May roll an undead hunter to celebrate.

[Xanthippe]

I just did five bosses in a row, of which we only killed one. 

Two things:

1.  Alt scrubs are in full force.
2.  I fear for what grouping will be like in the xpac.  People have gotten used to AOE killing and really don't know how to handle situations that require awareness.

In a moment of madness, I created a couple of new horde toons on a new server.  I wanted to once more do the 1-20 the old way (made troll, orc and undead). 

Leveling is very, very fast, particularly once you hit 15 and can use the random dungeon tool. 

It's so different now, though, due to the revamp of the classes.  Tanks don't really even seem all that necessary.  They are, but not like they used to be.  Practically every tank has been a pally, which is great for AOEing groups down.

So now Blizzard is training people to just aoe their way up - it's this way at least to 35, the level of my highest. 

The new instances are sure to be interesting with the random dungeon tool, once the new folks get up to 80 - assuming that any new folks are playing.

[01101010]

MMO-Champ reckons the Shattering (aka Patch 4.03a) may happen next week given that it's just happened on PTR.

May roll an undead hunter to celebrate.

What? Oh christ now I am going to have to go look up shit on the web... god damn you. 

[ezrast]

It's so different now, though, due to the revamp of the classes.  Tanks don't really even seem all that necessary.  They are, but not like they used to be.  Practically every tank has been a pally, which is great for AOEing groups down.

Conversely, if you're a tank, the rest of the team isn't really necessary. I took a warrior from 18-46 just soloing dungeons. There were definitely a couple rough spots, but also quite a few spots where I felt like I was cheating, elites were melting so fast. This is with no heirlooms, though I did have Crusader for much of the time, and some other decent high-level enchants until I replaced all the gear they were on. Stalled out running ZG ZF at 46, not because I couldn't do it, just because I got bored with the increasing xp reqs to level and went back to my bear.

edit for Chimpy: er, yes. That.

[Chimpy]

You have to mean ZF. ZG required a raid group and lvl 60 to enter :p

[Mnemon]

I had fun doing it with people I actually knew, I haven't pugged it.

I pugged it for 2, it sucked.  Typical PUG behavior.

One guy runs in and starts it up before everyone has the quest (forcing you to do it at least twice. More if you don't figure out to grab the quest before leaving the instance after the boss is dead instead of trying to grab it on zone-in.)   the tank stands in the fire.. or positions the mob so the DPS has to stand in the fire, the healer doesn't heal anyone but the tank but then bitches you're not standing in the fire to dps and he's almost OOM because the kill is taking too long. Then, when it's finally dead one jackass waits until everyone has rolled greed and hits need then drops group thinking he's somehow pulled a fast one by ninjaing a leet item that sells for 6g.  

I can't wait for Cata when all this is magnified by lack of overgearing.

these fights aren't that tough, but I agree, they really highlight that a lot of players who think they're hot shit are in for a rude awakening come Cata.

I've seen a hunter die because he didn't realize he shouldn't stand in the fire, and the healer basically told him "if you're not smart enough to figure that out I'm not healing you." This was a hunger in almost full ICC gear.

Saw a fully geared out shadow priest get roflstomped because it didn't know how to manage its threat with a tank that was geared enough for the encounter, but not to be tanking for the priests full blast DPS right from the start of the fight.

A guildie of mine said they almost wiped on the water boss because the tank kept positioning the boss so its conal AoE was hitting the healers and casters - not even realizing he should have faced it away from the group.

And another guildie said they wiped because their tank rushed in to fight the trash in front of the Princess and aggroed the boss, instead of pulling the trash to him.

all were simple lessons veteran gamers raiders, understand and adhere to as habit. but also lessons these puggies never needed to learn because of how overly simplistic WotLK was.

[WindupAtheist]

New faction-balancing system has gone into effect for Wintergrasp. Underpopulated sides exultant at being able to win for once. Overpopulated sides bitching about literal 2-v-2 Wintergrasps and being unable to get in all day. I don't know why Tol Barad and all that exist in Cataclysm, this "world PVP" experiment appears to have failed.

[Simond]

MMO-Champ reckons the Shattering (aka Patch 4.03a) may happen next week given that it's just happened on PTR.

May roll an undead hunter to celebrate.

What? Oh christ now I am going to have to go look up shit on the web... god damn you. 

Class trainer? Nathanos Blightcaller. 

[Soulflame]

It'll work this time for sure, no matter that each world pvp experience in vanilla, BC, and now Wrath has failed, and failed fairly miserably.

[Chimpy]

It'll work this time for sure, no matter that each world pvp experience in vanilla, BC, and now Wrath has failed, and failed fairly miserably.

Or in any other game with world PvP + DIKU for that matter.

[Paelos]

New faction-balancing system has gone into effect for Wintergrasp. Underpopulated sides exultant at being able to win for once. Overpopulated sides bitching about literal 2-v-2 Wintergrasps and being unable to get in all day. I don't know why Tol Barad and all that exist in Cataclysm, this "world PVP" experiment appears to have failed.

You either make it world pvp or you don't. When you try to make it "fair," you fuck everyone over. This is why WoW desperately needs a mercenary faction.

[Xanthippe]

New faction-balancing system has gone into effect for Wintergrasp. Underpopulated sides exultant at being able to win for once. Overpopulated sides bitching about literal 2-v-2 Wintergrasps and being unable to get in all day. I don't know why Tol Barad and all that exist in Cataclysm, this "world PVP" experiment appears to have failed.

You either make it world pvp or you don't. When you try to make it "fair," you fuck everyone over. This is why WoW desperately needs a mercenary faction.

A third faction would be great.  This, in my opinion, is what made DAOC the best pvp mmo ever.

[SurfD]

New faction-balancing system has gone into effect for Wintergrasp. Underpopulated sides exultant at being able to win for once. Overpopulated sides bitching about literal 2-v-2 Wintergrasps and being unable to get in all day. I don't know why Tol Barad and all that exist in Cataclysm, this "world PVP" experiment appears to have failed.

I am one of the few people on my server, where WG is pretty much owned by the Horde, who always knew that the only reason we owned the place was because the alliance were nearly always horribly outnumbered.  Every time they managed to field a nearly equal force, the battle always almost came down to the last second, or they occasionally won.   When I would point this out in WG general, that we never really win by skill, but by force of numbers, I would always get shot down viciously by people telling me to "learn to play", or that the Alliance were just terrible, or any number of things.  Recently however, the wailing and gnashing of teeth as Alliance has gone from having the keep for one or two turns a day at the most to having it half the day has been taunting me to pop in and say "I told you so".

I am just glad I no longer need gear or achievements from the place on my main any longer.

[Fordel]

A third faction wouldn't fix shit in WoW's pvp.


I haven't been able to get into a WG since the change, it makes me weep.

[Paelos]

A third faction wouldn't fix shit in WoW's pvp.


I haven't been able to get into a WG since the change, it makes me weep.

If you were able to switch between two of the three, I think it would.

[Fordel]

Yea, the bandwagon faction, that will fix EVERYTHING. 


2, 3, 14, 72. It doesn't matter, it's a population/participation issue, not a number of sides issue.



If we want to really discuss this again, toss up a new thread for it and I'll rant about it for a few days if you want. 

[Xanthippe]

Conversely, if you're a tank, the rest of the team isn't really necessary. I took a warrior from 18-46 just soloing dungeons. There were definitely a couple rough spots, but also quite a few spots where I felt like I was cheating, elites were melting so fast. This is with no heirlooms, though I did have Crusader for much of the time, and some other decent high-level enchants until I replaced all the gear they were on. Stalled out running ZG ZF at 46, not because I couldn't do it, just because I got bored with the increasing xp reqs to level and went back to my bear.

edit for Chimpy: er, yes. That.

Yes, but then you don't get the awesome bags of blue lewt.

[Paelos]

Yea, the bandwagon faction, that will fix EVERYTHING. 

2, 3, 14, 72. It doesn't matter, it's a population/participation issue, not a number of sides issue.

If we want to really discuss this again, toss up a new thread for it and I'll rant about it for a few days if you want. 

I don't because PvP isn't the point of WoW, and I think I've stated at times in the past I wouldn't mind it being carpet-bombed out of the game. I just want to play as a criminal merc faction because the lolore surrounding the two other factions trying to work together has made me want to puke.

[Dren]

Balance numbers in WG?  How about, accept the current queue once it starts.  Even up the numbers by pulling from other servers.  I don't know what that takes for programming, etc., but it sure seems like WG is almost to the point of an instanced BG.  The only difference is after the fight, the zone changes to help out whatever faction won.  That can stay the same.

I really wouldn't mind queuing up for a different server's WG fight as long as I could fight and it isn't so dang lopsided.  I enjoy those fights more than the current BG's.  Perhaps I can't do the quests due to being cross server, but I'd still like the honor rewards you get just for participating and, of course, the kills.

Balance is really the problem with any element of PvP in WoW.  There just isn't enough systems in place to try and make sure the sides that are fighting are evenly matched within a reasonable degree.  This is either by numbers, class/spec, gear level, or coordination (premades.)  I can see where maybe one or two of those things can slide, but to have all of them happening all the time just becomes frustrating.

[K9]

"World PvP"

[WindupAtheist]

I'm going to laugh when the 10 or 12 active max-level Alliance on some 99% Horde PVP server decide to send their one best fighter to duel over Tol Barad for half an hour.

[Sjofn]

I'm going to laugh when the 10 or 12 active max-level Alliance on some 99% Horde PVP server decide to send their one best fighter to duel over Tol Barad for half an hour.

I demand this happen.

[Paelos]

I'm going to laugh when the 10 or 12 active max-level Alliance on some 99% Horde PVP server decide to send their one best fighter to duel over Tol Barad for half an hour.

Now that would be freaking hysterical.

[Ingmar]

Alas I believe you can always have at least 20 regardless of how few show up from the other side, something like that.

[Hawkbit]

I've played Alliance on Earthen Ring since the day the server launched in Nov 04. 

I've watched as Alliance was overpopulated and we had constant queue times for just about anything we did.  I also watched the near decimation of the Alliance population when faction transfers were allowed.  We are now sitting at nearly 1 Alliance for 2 Horde.  Horde has owned WG for nearly six months straight, losing only in the wee hours of the night.  It wasn't even fun showing up with 20 people vs. ...I don't know how many there were so many red names. 

Anything that helps even this out is welcome, though if they're going to start initiating queues on content, why don't they just make WG/TB an instanced battleground?

[Ingmar]

Because the core idea is to have a form of PVP that isn't a BG. They'll keep tinkering with the formula for years to come, I suspect.

[WindupAtheist]

Alas I believe you can always have at least 20 regardless of how few show up from the other side, something like that.

There a source on that? Because the forums are already full of tales of 2v2 and 4v4 wintergrasps, and I'd like to know if they're bullshitting.

[Fordel]

They never gave a concrete number for the minimum, so it may be 20, or 10, or 5, or 50. It's pretty damn low, that's for sure. I still haven't been called to battle for a WG yet.


Either way, the zone is officially fucking useless at it's intended goal of 'world pvp' though. It was designed for 50-100+ per side, not this 10v10 horse shit. I've been in enough of those "fuck why are we still all awake at 5 am" WG games where both sides have like a dozen people, it just doesn't work.


Tol Barrad is going to be a complete waste too, using this balancing method. It's already the worlds largest and shittiest AB... and they are going to turn it into actual AB sized teams on a map designed hundreds again.

[Threash]

Being massively outnumbered was actually extremely fun and profitable for my rogue.  All i had to do was shadowstep into the keep and gank people for 6 honor a pop, which wasn't exactly a challenge with 9 tenacity.  I made 120 honor or so per catastrophic WG failure.

[Ingmar]

It looks like what I was remembering was a blue post where they were using 25 as a theoretical number, it wasn't a statement that it absolutely would be 25.

[DraconianOne]

Random news:  Next patch (4.03a) will also include a 20% reduction in XP for levelling 70 - 80. 

Which is nice.