Cataclysm

[Azuredream]

A Paragon member said this on the Cataclysm Beta Dungeons board:

Enrage timer needs a nerf.

You might want to nerf cleaving from Halfus to make class balance a bit better. We had people at 120k+ DPS on some attempts, peaking at 200k..

I'm not sure if it's intended to be able to pull all mobs at the same time and just kill them. It's possible though :)

We were able to kill all the adds with cleaving damage like hell from Halfus but wiped to enrage timer in the end.

I'm pretty sure by the end of this expansion it'll be "LF1M DPS Deathwing must do 80k+"

[Paelos]

Yep this is headed to a retarded place. Bosses with a billion HP, 80k DPS requirements, blech.

[Fordel]

They really need to just divide by 10 or something. 

[Chimpy]

At what point do they run into floating point precision overruns on boss HP?

[caladein]

So are you saying that WoW's mudflation rate has reached Zimbabwean levels?

[Chimpy]

I am SMRT!

[Merusk]

It wouldn't have been nearly as bad if they weren't insistent on "plebes" who have level 251 gear needing to be knocked down a peg and replacing gear as they leveled.   Previous expansions, you could use the top-tier raiding gear for at least the first 5 levels, perhaps more if you regemmed.  Now they've decided you have to replace even Heroic ICC gear within the first level, and keep on replacing it as you progress.  That's going to produce some stupid, stupid numbers pretty damn quickly.   They should have just acknowledged their error, shrugged it off and gone with the traditional replacement schedule.  Alts, new and behind-the-curve players are going to get eaten as soon as they hit that first cata zone until they get a few quest upgrades.

That DK had 2 seconds on Patchwerk's Enrage timer.  Pretty sure the only reason she was able to do it at all was the intent that blood be a "self-healing" tank.  Death Strike + Blood Shield + Blood Tap & Blood Worms = lots o' health.

[Paelos]

Previous gear in high end raiding should carry you to the next level of raid content. But you're right, they have royally messed that up now.

[Nebu]

If they continue progression trends, I don't see how casual players will stay.  I guess there are always people out there that have yet to experience the run from 1 - cap, but those numbers will dry up eventually. 

[Paelos]

They honestly should have used this as their chance to overhaul the system in the correct manner. You're blowing up the world, why not blow up all the items? Instead, they ignored that part, fixed some other odd things that didn't seem to be totally broken, and turned the mudflation up to 11.

It's one thing to ignore a problem. It's another thing to completely exacerbate it in the name of progress.

[lesion]

As long as the art is pwetty!

[Rendakor]

Why does it matter at all what the numbers are? Is there any difference between doing 5k dps and 50k dps? 5m hp and 50m hp? This is just stupid doomcasting for the sake of it. OH NOES SOMEONE HAS 150K HP, SKY FALLING, IM QUITTING FOR FFXIV!! 

[Reg]

I hear they're going to start forcing everyone to read the quest text too!

[Azuredream]

I don't know if the numbers really matter but I always thought the very final tier from the previous expansion (in this case people decked out in 277) should carry you to the very first tier in the new expansion, if for no other reason than to give SOME reason to people to farm that ICC heroic after you've killed H LK.

[Rendakor]

If 277s were useful in Cata raids, you guys would be crying that people had to farm H ICC 25 gear to raid in Cata.

[Azuredream]

  It would just mean people who didn't have that gear would have to do extra work gearing up for raids. The heroic 5 man stuff should be better than 277, just not double the stats better. Wasn't this kind of how it worked at the beginning of WotLK?

[Merusk]

It would just mean people who didn't have that gear would have to do extra work gearing up for raids. The heroic 5 man stuff should be better than 277, just not double the stats better. Wasn't this kind of how it worked at the beginning of WotLK?

Yes, which was my point.  Paelos was the one suggesting raid gear should carry you through to the next raid.  I've never agreed with that, since a gear reset means newer people can get into the raid game via heroics. Top-tier gear = or slightly worse to level-cap Heroics is a good thing.  Top-tier gear being worse than first zone quest gear is silly and short-sighted.  Most players are achievers, and raid for the purpose of loot.  Making that loot worthless means they stop raiding. Which has apparently happened.  I don't even see pugs for the weekly on Alleria anymore, never mind the ICC runs that used to happen with 2-4 raids forming at a time.

[Evildrider]

It would just mean people who didn't have that gear would have to do extra work gearing up for raids. The heroic 5 man stuff should be better than 277, just not double the stats better. Wasn't this kind of how it worked at the beginning of WotLK?

Yes, which was my point.  Paelos was the one suggesting raid gear should carry you through to the next raid.  I've never agreed with that, since a gear reset means newer people can get into the raid game via heroics. Top-tier gear = or slightly worse to level-cap Heroics is a good thing.  Top-tier gear being worse than first zone quest gear is silly and short-sighted.  Most players are achievers, and raid for the purpose of loot.  Making that loot worthless means they stop raiding. Which has apparently happened.  I don't even see pugs for the weekly on Alleria anymore, never mind the ICC runs that used to happen with 2-4 raids forming at a time.

Its not necessarily just the gear, I have 4k capped justice points on my toons.  I have no reason to run anything else anymore.   If I get on it's to mine a little bit.  My guild is still working on heroic ICC 10 just to get the achievements, and we'll prolly finish that this week.

[Sjofn]

They really need to just divide by 10 or something.  

Yeah seriously, it's just completely silly at this point.

If 277s were useful in Cata raids, you guys would be crying that people had to farm H ICC 25 gear to raid in Cata.

Oh shit, you're onto them! 

I do think the numbers are getting silly just from an asthetic standpoint, but I can't get upset at the whole "oh my God I replace my geeeeeeeeeear" thing. I like replacing gear. 

[Soulflame]

After watching that DK solo most of Naxx, now I'm wondering how many players it would take to down Gluth.

The most reasonable minimum might be four.  Two tanks to swap on Gluth, one kiter, plus an AE dps to blow up zombies after decimate.  It might be possible to get that down to three.  Maybe even two.  It depends on if the decimate was done while the heal debuff was on the tank.  (It eventually wears off, and in enough time that even an Ulduar geared tank could survive that long, with a bit of luck.)

Of course you'd need at least two on the last guy, because of the mini bosses.

[Paelos]

It would just mean people who didn't have that gear would have to do extra work gearing up for raids. The heroic 5 man stuff should be better than 277, just not double the stats better. Wasn't this kind of how it worked at the beginning of WotLK?

Yes, which was my point.  Paelos was the one suggesting raid gear should carry you through to the next raid.  I've never agreed with that, since a gear reset means newer people can get into the raid game via heroics. Top-tier gear = or slightly worse to level-cap Heroics is a good thing.

Top tier gear is going to get set on fire after 2 levels. My point was that top tier gear now should let you skip all the 5 man gearing in the next iteration.

[Abelian75]

Top tier gear is going to get set on fire after 2 levels. My point was that top tier gear now should let you skip all the 5 man gearing in the next iteration.

I don't necessarily think this is the worst idea ever or anything, but personally I love a total reset each expansion.  While I don't necessarily care if the first quest green I get replaces the item, I do at least like to know that every normal mode 5-man will have new shit for me.  Or at least close to it.  Honestly the first goal I have had so far in each expansion has been to get that filthy old shit off of me, and I'm cool with downgrading to the first quest greens I get if need be... I just don't want it to be a MASSIVE downgrade that I'll feel stupid about.  I really do like each expansion being an absolutely, 100% clean slate though.  It's extremely refreshing, imho.  I like the old feeling of being like, "ooo, this has a gem slot."  Or "ooo, I got my first blue."  Fuck staying in purples forever.  Fuck it.

Granted, it does hurt in the stat inflation department.  Honestly, the idea mentioned earlier about just breaking all your old shit is, in reality, the most distilled form of what I really enjoy about new expansion gear resets, but would be a little too... overt, probably.

[Rendakor]

My point was that top tier gear now should let you skip all the 5 man gearing in the next iteration.

I disagree with what you said.

[Chimpy]

My point was that top tier gear now should let you skip all the 5 man gearing in the next iteration.

I disagree with what you said.

So do I.

It means all of that 5 man content (which Blizzard has stated many times takes many more man hours to produce than raid content) is skipped, the first raids are ridiculously easy (hello Naxx 2.0), and your "hardcore" people start getting bitchy months before they would have if they had to, you know, actually gear up for the raids.

[SurfD]

After watching that DK solo most of Naxx, now I'm wondering how many players it would take to down Gluth.

The most reasonable minimum might be four.  Two tanks to swap on Gluth, one kiter, plus an AE dps to blow up zombies after decimate.  It might be possible to get that down to three.  Maybe even two.  It depends on if the decimate was done while the heal debuff was on the tank.  (It eventually wears off, and in enough time that even an Ulduar geared tank could survive that long, with a bit of luck.)

Of course you'd need at least two on the last guy, because of the mini bosses.

Yeah, a full clear of naxx (all bosses) would probably require at least 2, but probably 4 people.  You need a minimum of 2 for thaddeus (due to the way the miniboss encounter works), and you would probably need at minimum 2 people to do 4 Horsemen, though 4 would make it signifigantly easier.

[K9]

After watching that DK solo most of Naxx, now I'm wondering how many players it would take to down Gluth.

The most reasonable minimum might be four.  Two tanks to swap on Gluth, one kiter, plus an AE dps to blow up zombies after decimate.  It might be possible to get that down to three.  Maybe even two.  It depends on if the decimate was done while the heal debuff was on the tank.  (It eventually wears off, and in enough time that even an Ulduar geared tank could survive that long, with a bit of luck.)

Of course you'd need at least two on the last guy, because of the mini bosses.

From the description on this video he states that Gluth isn't doable, which makes sense.

[K9]

Also, thinking of other unsoloable bosses, I'm pretty sure Gunship and Putricide, BQL and Valthiria would be explicitly unsoloable due to mechanics, and fights like LK, Sindragosa and Yogg would be presumably unsoloable unless having only one target beaks some of the mechanics. I would suspect that most of the rest of Ulduar and ToC would be soloable at some point.

[Paelos]

So do I.

It means all of that 5 man content (which Blizzard has stated many times takes many more man hours to produce than raid content) is skipped, the first raids are ridiculously easy (hello Naxx 2.0), and your "hardcore" people start getting bitchy months before they would have if they had to, you know, actually gear up for the raids.

5 man content is always there though. It will always have a point in filling in gaps. By resetting everything, you kill any motivation for people that like the raiding side to do anything once they hint at expansion. How many people do you think cancelled subs 6 months ago because they beat ICC and didn't really care about farming it into oblivion when they knew it didn't matter? ICC came out 11 months ago. It's basically pick your poison. Have them bitch during the cycles or have them quit at the end.

Bitchers won't quit in the middle.

[Rendakor]

Valithria could be solo'd assuming you could heal the boss to full without using portals and still kill all the adds. Probably not by the tank-type that traditionally does these, however.

Paelos, people that actually LIKE raiding (and who don't just raid for gear, or progression) won't quit. I know I didn't; even knowing that Cata hits in a few weeks, I'm still running a couple ICC 10 PUGs every week and hitting the weekly (when it isn't something annoying). The hardcore crowd that you speak of will play WoW because it's the only game out there with a decent raid scene. Maybe they take a few months off, but they'll be back for each xpac. The casual crowd is who made WoW a success, and this 'Go back and raid WotLK before you can raid Cata' bullshit would not fly with them.

[Paelos]

Here's my question then: Do you like raiding, or do you like the people and could give a shit less what format you play with them? My guess is you've probably beaten ICC 10 into the ground and/or are doing it on your alts because you generally like your friends you play with.

My point was that many people like the raids, but when they have beaten the challenge of raiding that they enjoy, they are less motivated to stick around if they don't have alts / aren't gear whores / have other games they like to play SP.

[Rendakor]

When I raid lately, it's usually me, two guildies and 7 PUGs, so it's not about the people I'm raiding with. I do have a ton of alts, but I really do just enjoy it.

[Ingmar]

The only reason your gear is blowing up after 2 levels instead of 5 this expansion is because they only raised the cap by 5 levels, because they didn't want to mess around with 10 levels worth of talent points etc. Functionally this is going to end up working just like all the other expansions that didn't ruin the game.

[Paelos]

The only reason your gear is blowing up after 2 levels instead of 5 this expansion is because they only raised the cap by 5 levels, because they didn't want to mess around with 10 levels worth of talent points etc. Functionally this is going to end up working just like all the other expansions that didn't ruin the game.

You are right, it won't ruin the game. It's a small nitpick I have about continuity. I'm not going to worry about the reset when I hump 5 mans during the winter months because I can't play golf. I just wish they would give us a reason to want to work out our characters in the months leading up to an expansion besides grinding low level resources and heirloom gear.

[Azazel]

 

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm not sure that facepalm is big enough.