Cataclysm

[Nevermore]

You mean like when Deathwing's daughter was running the Alliance, and all the Horde wanted was peace? 

She was obviously less efficient at it than King McBigChinAndHair.

Onyxia was actively trying to keep the Alliance, Humans specifically, as weak as possible.

[Tannhauser]

Yeah because Humans are the most warlike race in Azeroth.
"Hey the orcs fled our prison camps and sailed across the ocean away from us! Let's go hunt 'em down!"

[Sjofn]

I'm not sure Onyxia gave a shit about the Horde at all, but figured it was another way to keep the Alliance tied up in stupid shit, so vague aggression rather than Straight Up War was fine for her purposes. King SuperChin is itching for a war (and almost certainly would love to indulge in some genocide on the way), so it's not really surprising he is "better" at getting us involved in one than Onyxia was.

[Tannhauser]

Oh I'm sure Onxyia doesn't give a crap about the Horde.  I agree that she was keeping the Humans in confusion.  They're the ones with a major base just up the coast from her stronghold.  "Lady Katrana Prestor" is one of my favorite lore threads.  Not sure why I guess I just like the idea of a major dragon running Stormwind.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, I liked the Onyxia thing as well. Especially when I was wee and the game was new and no one knew about it, and I was all like, "That lady is trouble!" and then later oh my God she's a dragon !

Good times!

[WindupAtheist]

King SuperChin is itching for a war (and almost certainly would love to indulge in some genocide on the way), so it's not really surprising he is "better" at getting us involved in one than Onyxia was.

What exactly is this based upon? His first act of foreign policy after escaping from slavery and resuming the throne was to attend a summit meeting and attempt to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the Ashenvale incursion, despite his former 'owner' standing at Thrall's side.

Hell even after a unit of the Horde military went rogue and started blanketing everyone in plague, his reaction was "The Horde has lost Undercity to Putress? Well let's go kill Putress ourselves and keep the city!" The idea that he simply declared war on the entire Horde out of hand while ignoring the fact that Putress was a traitor is just untrue.

it wasn't until he was actually in the heart of Undercity and saw what had been going on all along that he finally went "Okay never mind, fuck the Horde completely!"

Which is why everything is really the fault of the Forsaken. Even with all the slave/gladiator/amensia crap that had gone on, Varian and the orcs were more or less able to potentially get along. It wasn't until Sylvanas and her inability to control her minions blew the lid off her plague project and the general horror of Undercity that things went to hell.

Edit: I think I said all the same stuff like just 5 pages ago, but meh, I like to hear myself talk. See myself type. Whatever. Point is, subtract either the orcs or humans and you still end up with a Dreadlord staging a coup in Undercity and the Forsaken gassing SOMEONE to get at the Lich King. Subtract the Forsaken and the orcs and humans probably manage to cooperate, or at least not kill each other.

[Delmania]

humans and you still end up with a Dreadlord staging a coup in Undercity and the Forsaken gassing SOMEONE to get at the Lich King. Subtract the Forsaken and the orcs and humans probably manage to cooperate, or at least not kill each other.

I do so enjoy the lore of the Forsaken.  If everyone just got he plague over and done with, we'd all be the same and have no wars.

[Fordel]

Tell that to the four Forsaken defectors I just had to hunt down!

[Sheepherder]

I do so enjoy the lore of the Forsaken.  If everyone just got he plague over and done with, we'd all be the same and have no wars.

Lolwut?

I don't know about you, but if someone killed me to bolster the ranks of their army I would eat them.

[Delmania]

I do so enjoy the lore of the Forsaken.  If everyone just got he plague over and done with, we'd all be the same and have no wars.

Lolwut?

I don't know about you, but if someone killed me to bolster the ranks of their army I would eat them.

The best part of being Forsaken is that you can do exactly that!

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20577

Plus we have a lifetime benefits package!

[AutomaticZen]

I do so enjoy the lore of the Forsaken.  If everyone just got he plague over and done with, we'd all be the same and have no wars.

Lolwut?

I don't know about you, but if someone killed me to bolster the ranks of their army I would eat them.

'Army' is such a strong word.  They prefer 'family'.

[Sheepherder]

'Army' is such a strong word.  They prefer 'family'.

It's still not a very good definition of world peace if I'm biting off chunks of Sylvanas' face.

[Sjofn]

King SuperChin is itching for a war (and almost certainly would love to indulge in some genocide on the way), so it's not really surprising he is "better" at getting us involved in one than Onyxia was.

Waaah leave king chin alone!

It's based on the fact he is fucking spoiling for a war. I don't care what diplomacy he did at first, the fact is that right now, justified in your eyes or not, he wants war and he wants to wipe out the forsaken (and would toooootally not cry if he killed every single orc in the process).

[WindupAtheist]

It's based on the fact he is fucking spoiling for a war. I don't care what diplomacy he did at first

...

[Sjofn]

What I mean is he is spoiling for war NOW. I didn't mean he burst onto the scene wanting war.

[WindupAtheist]

Dammit, I was hoping you would yell at me so I could go "You're spoiling for a flamewar! I mean maybe not before, but you are now!"

 

[Sjofn]

Oops, I'll try harder next time. 

[Soulflame]

Am I supposed to argue against wiping out the Forsaken?  They are the most clearly defined "evil" side in the game, there's not a whole lot of moral ambiguity about a group of people who are the living dead, and are working as hard as possible to wipe out their former side, plus all life on the planet.

I suppose I should, as the only reason why there are any Blood Elves at all is because Sylvanas saved our asses, IIRC.  That still doesn't excuse working on a plague that will wipe out everything that is not the Forsaken.

A lot of the rest of the problems the Horde and Alliance face are things that should be resolvable via diplomatic means.

And don't get me started on Garrosh.  I should have never undergone the effort to bring Thrall to see him.

[Kail]

Am I supposed to argue against wiping out the Forsaken?  They are the most clearly defined "evil" side in the game, there's not a whole lot of moral ambiguity about a group of people who are the living dead, and are working as hard as possible to wipe out their former side, plus all life on the planet.

I suppose I should, as the only reason why there are any Blood Elves at all is because Sylvanas saved our asses, IIRC.  That still doesn't excuse working on a plague that will wipe out everything that is not the Forsaken.

The Forsaken/Horde relationship is less ideological unity and more "we'd rather have them inside pissing out than outside pissing in" kind of pact of necessity.  They aren't really united in anything except not dying.

Not sure how Sylvanas is responsible for saving the Blood Elves, though.  She's responsible for them being on the Horde, maybe ("Our ancient ancestral home was razed by zombies, plunging us into agonizing magic withdrawl, now the zombies are back and some of them want to be buddies, and they're led by the animated corpse of one of our revered generals.  Hello, horrific mockery of nature, what's that?  You want us to join forces with you, plus a bunch of orcs which we were at war with a few years ago, and a bunch of trolls like the ones we've been at perpetual war with for the last ten thousand years?  Well, our Prince is out spreading love and cheer in Outlands, probably, he'll be back aaaaaaaaaany second now, but until then, I'm going to say that this sounds like an awesome idea!"), maybe for removing whatever threat Dar'Khan was supposed to pose (though it's never really clear how dire that is).

[Delmania]

The Forsaken/Horde relationship is less ideological unity and more "we'd rather have them inside pissing out than outside pissing in" kind of pact of necessity.  They aren't really united in anything except not dying.

Not sure how Sylvanas is responsible for saving the Blood Elves, though.  She's responsible for them being on the Horde, maybe ("Our ancient ancestral home was razed by zombies, plunging us into agonizing magic withdrawl, now the zombies are back and some of them want to be buddies, and they're led by the animated corpse of one of our revered generals.  Hello, horrific mockery of nature, what's that?  You want us to join forces with you, plus a bunch of orcs which we were at war with a few years ago, and a bunch of trolls like the ones we've been at perpetual war with for the last ten thousand years?  Well, our Prince is out spreading love and cheer in Outlands, probably, he'll be back aaaaaaaaaany second now, but until then, I'm going to say that this sounds like an awesome idea!"), maybe for removing whatever threat Dar'Khan was supposed to pose (though it's never really clear how dire that is).

Dar'khan is a kind of a shoe horn.  He was supposed to have helped Arthas reach the Sunwell, but I sure as heck don't remember him from WC3.  For the Blood Elves, had Sylvanas not intervened on their behalf, they would all wound up a bunch of washed up addicts.  By helping them into the Horde, it set off a chain of events that has enabled the BE to shed themselves of Kael and actually make something of themselves.

[Minvaren]

Shocker...

Back Half of 2010 for Cataclysm.

[Merusk]

So... Feb, 2011.

[Simond]

November, for the 6 year anniversary.

[Rasix]

Good to know I'll fail to break my pattern of unsubbing for an extended time before the expansion hits. No way I make it to "last half".  Well, unless I level up my druid or finally play an alliance character to bug the folks on Doomhammer.  Even then..  This isn't a bad thing mind you, I just see my current small group falling well apart before then.

[K9]

Well, it'll probably take my guild a good month or so to get ICC all cleared (8/12 atm, but none of the 'hard' bosses).

I wonder if I can stand 4 months of farming ICC.

[Sheepherder]

finally play an alliance character to bug the folks on Doomhammer.

This isn't a bad idea.

[Sjofn]

Watch out for Sofi, though, I hear she's a bitch.

[kildorn]

Watch out for Sofi, though, I hear she's a bitch.

Please, how many people have YOU chased out of the guild.

[Sjofn]

Does it count if they come back?

[kildorn]

Yes. Double points if you invite them back and chase them off again within a week.

[Sjofn]

How about if they quit because they were friends with the person I caused to ragequit?

[Sheepherder]

2 - Double Kill
3 - Mega Kill
4 - Ultra Kill
5 - Mmmoonster Kill

[Lantyssa]

Trying to start the Cataclysm early?  I know you want to play a Goblin, but I don't think this will help it come any faster.

[Sjofn]

I wants them so bad. 

[Tannhauser]

Ah, potential customer.