Cataclysm

[WindupAtheist]

You'd hate to be the guy releasing another generic diku who has to compete with "WoW rebuilt from level 1 with everything Blizzard learned over 5 years".

[Lantyssa]

Good.  Maybe we'll get some other options then.

[Ratman_tf]

I always found BRD to be the best instance in WoW, ever. Not design-wise, it was a horrible play experience unless you knew exactly what to do. But the feeling of a sprawling dungeon with multiple paths is unique in WoW. Clearing all of it with a group of five back in Vanilla was a feat, hell just getting to the final boss required some good group coordination. It also had plenty of "fun" quests to complete and secrets (such as the enchantment books, opening of the vaults, several ways to get past the bar etc.). It was an experience, rather then a roller-coaster ride of mobs and bosses.

Agree. The dungeons and raids have evolved to be more efficient, but lost a lot of character doing it.

[Malakili]

I always found BRD to be the best instance in WoW, ever. Not design-wise, it was a horrible play experience unless you knew exactly what to do. But the feeling of a sprawling dungeon with multiple paths is unique in WoW. Clearing all of it with a group of five back in Vanilla was a feat, hell just getting to the final boss required some good group coordination. It also had plenty of "fun" quests to complete and secrets (such as the enchantment books, opening of the vaults, several ways to get past the bar etc.). It was an experience, rather then a roller-coaster ride of mobs and bosses.

Agree. The dungeons and raids have evolved to be more efficient, but lost a lot of character doing it.

Hell, the stupid little gauntlet room in UP seems to trip up PUGs STILL sometimes, imagine if people had to do The Lyceum, ick.

Incidentally, one of my favorite things I did at the end of vanilla when I was overgeared was duoing every boss in BRD with me (druid), and a friend of mine (another druid).

[K9]

Kara was the last raid with character.

[Sjofn]

Oh, I don't know, I like Ulduar's character. But I like Titany crap, so that might be part of it.

I do miss Kara, though. Even though I ran it enough to get exalted on multiple characters.  That must count for something, rite?

[Hindenburg]

Eh, I actually liked ToC, made sense and fit the setting somewhat well. Hearing the announcer the first time, with the audience and everything, was very good, and as much as we like to bash jousting, the overall performance increased drastically over the course of a few weeks. When it was just released, it was common to see puggers getting dismounted and killed, nowadays it's a rarity.

[Mattemeo]

Oh, I don't know, I like Ulduar's character. But I like Titany crap, so that might be part of it.

I do miss Kara, though. Even though I ran it enough to get exalted on multiple characters.   That must count for something, rite?

What I've seen of Ulduar so far I've really liked, it's a sort of mad giant's playground. I don't get much of a feeling of genuine hostility off it as yet, more malfunction - I'd be interested to see exactly how it's been corrupted malignantly by Yogg Saron etc - for now it's massive tinkertoys on the rampage! And X(treme) T(antrum) Toddlerbot is the best of all! No no no NO NO NO NO NO NO!

I also really enjoyed Kara, though I've only been once and at a speed that rendered the details somewhat blurred.

[Khaldun]

You'd hate to be the guy releasing another generic diku who has to compete with "WoW rebuilt from level 1 with everything Blizzard learned over 5 years".

You'd think. Doesn't seem to stop multimillion dollar development teams from sticking their feet in the beartrap and wiggling vigorously on the trigger.

[Sjofn]

Thinking upon it further, I think PART of what made Karazahn fun for me was the silly little quest line. It totally acknowledged you were going to go in there a jillion times, and I don't mind quest series that take you into a dungeon multiple times if I'm at the level cap, because I AM going to go in there multiple times. WotLK is sorely, sorely lacking in any quests to really tie into the raids (although there will supposedly be one for the three Icecrown five mans, if I remember right), and it does hurt the character of them somewhat, I think.

OS is the very worst offender of this, but I've babbled about that already.

And yes, XT is rad. I love his voice acting. <3

[Nonentity]

I remember you...

...in the mountains.

[Ingmar]

Holy shit, that XT song is fantastic.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I like ulduar most because it's got a single coherent storyline that extends from all the things you were doing in storm peaks including even HOL and HOS. Even Algalon is explained in a reasonable way.  Whether you enjoy the actual aesthetic of the dungeon or not, it's got a purpose other than "there's things to kill in here"

It actually took me a second time doing storm peaks quests to realize razorscale was the broodmother you help thorim get.

[sickrubik]

Holy shit, that XT song is fantastic.

That's going to be a mandatory listening download and listening party thing for the XT fight.

[Ingmar]

I like ulduar most because it's got a single coherent storyline that extends from all the things you were doing in storm peaks including even HOL and HOS. Even Algalon is explained in a reasonable way.  Whether you enjoy the actual aesthetic of the dungeon or not, it's got a purpose other than "there's things to kill in here"

It actually took me a second time doing storm peaks quests to realize razorscale was the broodmother you help thorim get.

I also like that the fights mostly have logic to them. As much as I like doing the Heigan dance in Naxx, it doesn't really make any *sense*.

[kildorn]

If your friends can't dance then they're no friends of the lich king, obviously.

[Sjofn]

I like ulduar most because it's got a single coherent storyline that extends from all the things you were doing in storm peaks including even HOL and HOS. Even Algalon is explained in a reasonable way.  Whether you enjoy the actual aesthetic of the dungeon or not, it's got a purpose other than "there's things to kill in here"

That's why I hates OS so much in general terms. Yes, apparently the comic explains wtf all that shit is and why we would ever care about it, but in game? There is not even a teeny little peep about it. It's the most blatant "there are things in here to kill for loots" raid, and I guess I prefer to have window dressing for that. 

[Vash]

I like ulduar most because it's got a single coherent storyline that extends from all the things you were doing in storm peaks including even HOL and HOS. Even Algalon is explained in a reasonable way.  Whether you enjoy the actual aesthetic of the dungeon or not, it's got a purpose other than "there's things to kill in here"

That's why I hates OS so much in general terms. Yes, apparently the comic explains wtf all that shit is and why we would ever care about it, but in game? There is not even a teeny little peep about it. It's the most blatant "there are things in here to kill for loots" raid, and I guess I prefer to have window dressing for that. 

Actually the Cataclysm announcement explains OS just as good as any comic I imagine.  Deathwing is leading a new dragonflight, the Twilight Dragonflight.  Vesperon, Tenebron, and the other drake in OS are all the first brood of Twilight Drakes, the first sucessful results in attempts to create a new breed of dragons.  Sartharion is there to guard them (presumably under orders from Deathwing).

So really OS was a giant foreshadowing of Cataclysm apparently.     ( I honestly haven't read the comic or talked to anyone who has, I was able to put all that together just from the Cataclysm annoucements and in game text/dialogue)

[Simond]

I remember you...

...in the mountains.

Holy shit, that XT song is fantastic.

From the same bloke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yBY-T2MDkU

[Sjofn]

I like ulduar most because it's got a single coherent storyline that extends from all the things you were doing in storm peaks including even HOL and HOS. Even Algalon is explained in a reasonable way.  Whether you enjoy the actual aesthetic of the dungeon or not, it's got a purpose other than "there's things to kill in here"

That's why I hates OS so much in general terms. Yes, apparently the comic explains wtf all that shit is and why we would ever care about it, but in game? There is not even a teeny little peep about it. It's the most blatant "there are things in here to kill for loots" raid, and I guess I prefer to have window dressing for that. 

Actually the Cataclysm announcement explains OS just as good as any comic I imagine.  Deathwing is leading a new dragonflight, the Twilight Dragonflight.  Vesperon, Tenebron, and the other drake in OS are all the first brood of Twilight Drakes, the first sucessful results in attempts to create a new breed of dragons.  Sartharion is there to guard them (presumably under orders from Deathwing).

So really OS was a giant foreshadowing of Cataclysm apparently.     ( I honestly haven't read the comic or talked to anyone who has, I was able to put all that together just from the Cataclysm annoucements and in game text/dialogue)

Oh, I know the story behind it, I knew it before the Cataclysm thing, but not from anything at ALL in-game. And that's my objection. I shouldn't have to think "what the fuck are we doing here, anyway?" to myself and then go look it up on WoWwiki or whatever. I don't mind it as much when it's shit that happened in the RTS games (WotLK does do a pretty good job of telling you what the Lich King's deal is through quests though, imo), but throwing in shit from non-game sources and expecting me to know or give a crap about what is going on drives me crazy.

On the other hand, I hate that I knew who Rhonin was before WotLK. 

[kildorn]

From what little I pay attention to, the Lich King has fallen on hard financial times, and has been using the players as an excuse to downsize his management staff.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I always think of it as part of his plan.  Just like the argent crusade is trying to find the strongest warriors, so is the lich king.  Look at all the vrykuls storylines and the combats that go on between them to find the strongest.  Atm arthas has just about all the expendable ghouls he'll ever need, right now he's looking for champions.

[Koyasha]

That's about the only reasonable and slightly rational explanation for why he repeatedly encounters the player and doesn't smite them.  All in all it feels kind of silly, but there's a slight bit of reason to it so it doesn't feel entirely dumb, only mostly dumb.  Seriously dude, just kill everyone, raise them, and THEN let them fight it out to see who's fit to be your champion.  After they're under your control and pose no serious threat to you.  Besides which, shouldn't he have learned his lesson about strong-willed underlings from Sylvanas, not to mention oh, say, himself (as related to his relationship with Kil'jaeden)?  So yeah, still feels mostly dumb.

On the other hand, they said they want to make Deathwing a strong presence and pointed to how they did the Lich King, but I see no reason why Deathwing would encounter someone and not squash them.  So hopefully they won't do it in the same 'funny, we just keep running into each other' method.

[Slyfeind]

There's this good group of dragons, fighting an evil group of dragons. Some of them are flying around their big tower, while others are camping out in their basement. Kill them all. Or is there more?

[Soulflame]

The lich king is convinced that you'll corrupt yourself so much in the process of going through Northrend, that you'll end up on his side.

[Merusk]

The lich king is convinced that you'll corrupt yourself so much in the process of going through Northrend, that you'll end up on his side.

If I could betray my companions mid fight, I would. That would be fantastic.

[K9]

Oh, I don't know, I like Ulduar's character. But I like Titany crap, so that might be part of it.

I do miss Kara, though. Even though I ran it enough to get exalted on multiple characters.  That must count for something, rite?

Oh I like Ulduar a lot, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of Naxx 2.0, VoA and EoE for atmosphere. Especially the first time after you down Mimiron and you walk the descent into madness, that part of the zone is especially cool. Actually I was probably being overly-hasty saying Kara was the last raid with character.

What I meant to sat is that Kara was the last raid where the all the elements of zone felt like they belonged together. It was a house gone mad, and the layout of the raid felt like you were progressing through a house. This is something which Ulduar sort of has, and does far better than Naxx, but isn't quite on. The scrapyard area makes some sense, and the descent into madness; but a lot of the interior just feels like a nicely painted box to house mobs. In kara, the ballroom was haunted by dancers, the stables by skeletal steeds and the bedrooms by succubi. The element Kara captured best for me was the sense that, even if you weren't there, the mansion and it's denizens would continue on that course. In Ulduar, as with so many other raids, you feel like the mobs are there solely to face you, and aren't linked to any particular part of the instance. What would the Iron Dwarves be doing in Ulduar if you weren't there? The mimiron trash sort of makes sense, but most of the rest of it lacks an implied reason to be there that you are interrupting.

[K9]

Thinking upon it further, I think PART of what made Karazahn fun for me was the silly little quest line. It totally acknowledged you were going to go in there a jillion times, and I don't mind quest series that take you into a dungeon multiple times if I'm at the level cap, because I AM going to go in there multiple times. WotLK is sorely, sorely lacking in any quests to really tie into the raids (although there will supposedly be one for the three Icecrown five mans, if I remember right), and it does hurt the character of them somewhat, I think.

OS is the very worst offender of this, but I've babbled about that already.

And yes, XT is rad. I love his voice acting. <3

This too, I really liked the Violet Eye rep, it wasn't necessary in anyway, but you felt like you were getting something even on bad nights. I'm not sure when Blizzard changed to feeling that raid reps were a bad thing; also raid-quests. Ulduar would have been perfect for this as there are NPCs right at the start who's sole purpose is to... vanish. Seems like an undeveloped resource. The voice acting in Ulduar is also really great; although I also like Jaraxxus in ToC, since he's sort of Malchezzar Redux.

[Paelos]

Nothing beat Darkshire for me in terms of best quest hub. It's probably the only zone that felt immersive to me in the entire old world. I probably made that word up.

[Azazel]

What? Immersive? Really? 

[Paelos]

What? Immersive? Really? 

It needs to be added to the spellcheck then.

[Fabricated]

Darkshire is quite possibly the best zone in the game for overall theme, design, and especially writing. There's a lot of good writing that people never see there since people complain about having to run across the zone (you can get mounts at 20 now, so shut the fuck up about it).

You know how all of the vendor NPCs used to have a dialog when you'd click on them to shop? There's a mod that re-enables that as an attached window to the shop window. Get that. There's unique stuff to Darkshire that rules.

[Sjofn]

You know how all of the vendor NPCs used to have a dialog when you'd click on them to shop? There's a mod that re-enables that as an attached window to the shop window. Get that. There's unique stuff to Darkshire that rules.

Oh sweet, I actually miss the dialogue stuff on vendors n' crap. Maybe when I finally start installing mods again (I am so laaaaazy!), I'll try to find that one.

[Slyfeind]

Damn, I don't know how you all got so much theme and style out of Kara. To me it was the weirdest mish-mash of illogical stuff. You literally walk from a werewolf theater to a trash compactor to a spaceship or some weird stuff, then all of a sudden there's a museum owned by robots next to a feces factory or whatever.

It was someone's mansion all this time?

[Simond]

You know how all of the vendor NPCs used to have a dialog when you'd click on them to shop? There's a mod that re-enables that as an attached window to the shop window. Get that. There's unique stuff to Darkshire that rules.

Oh sweet, I actually miss the dialogue stuff on vendors n' crap. Maybe when I finally start installing mods again (I am so laaaaazy!), I'll try to find that one.

Here you go: http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/gossipmonger.aspx