Cataclysm

[Vash]

The only people going to enjoy this are 25 man raid guilds with the ability to essentially form Mega-Arena teams, or the rare, rare cases of a collection of "real" PvP'ers all coordinating a BG night regularly.

Collections of "real" or even just "enthusiastic and willing to follow orders" PvP'ers were quite common in classic WoW and got together pretty much every day/night, especially before cross server BG ques when real rivalries were abundant on most servers.  There were all kinds of PvP only or PvP first guilds.  I was able to get into one of the best collections on my server on a regular basis and even though I was nowhere near a PvP allstar/hero at that time it was pretty much the most fun I've ever had in the game to this day.

I appreciate blizzards intent if they're trying to bring back those days with this change, but I don't really see it working well for a multitude of reasons.

[AcidCat]

In an odd way, I think lore doesn't matter but mood and feel does. Meaning, the art resources, tone of dialogue, rough sense of humor and so on are pretty consistent in their feel or mood across the game, even with oddities like Outlands and Space Goats and all that. Whereas (for example) something like EQ2 felt like an aesthetic dog's breakfast, with very little sense of a mood or feel. Blizzard can do anything they like to the lore, I suspect, but they might run into a problem if they did something to really seriously break the mood or feel of the game. Cataclysm doesn't seem to me to break the mood, whatever extra incoherencies it piles onto the massive pile of lore contradictions that already exist.

Excellent point, I agree.

[Musashi]

Queue times are going to kill it before it even starts is my guess.

Think of how long the average Naxx Pug takes to setup. Now factor in you need to wait for another Naxx Pug to also setup and Queue to fight you. Then you have the usual issues with Pugs, people AFKing, leaving randomly, rage quitting etc. Odds are you'll still get stomped to boot  :awesome_for_rea

The only people going to enjoy this are 25 man raid guilds with the ability to essentially form Mega-Arena teams, or the rare, rare cases of a collection of "real" PvP'ers all coordinating a BG night regularly.

I think it will depend on the Battlegroup, and the time of day - as it always has.  Back in the day when you could queue for the first BG's as a group it was either brutal or lol 15 seconds depending on your server.  I was playing on Akama at the time, and the Horde drastically outnumbered Alliance, which made for insta queues for us.  The Horde had time to literally go farm people in Blackrock Mountain in between games.  Now that they have x-server it takes some of the brutality out of it (literally hours), but it can still be pretty painful if you're on the wrong side of the population imbalance.  But at least Blizz can occasionally move servers in and out of Battlegroups to try and balance it out.

[Ingmar]

I really don't know what the fuck you are arguing about.

Nobody else does either. They got lost on the way to EJ.

Nah, at EJ Sheepherder would have been banned after his first post, and Kild probably would have been banned for encouraging him. 

[Vash]

I think it will depend on the Battlegroup, and the time of day - as it always has.  Back in the day when you could queue for the first BG's as a group it was either brutal or lol 15 seconds depending on your server.  I was playing on Akama at the time, and the Horde drastically outnumbered Alliance, which made for insta queues for us.  The Horde had time to literally go farm people in Blackrock Mountain in between games.  Now that they have x-server it takes some of the brutality out of it (literally hours), but it can still be pretty painful if you're on the wrong side of the population imbalance.  But at least Blizz can occasionally move servers in and out of Battlegroups to try and balance it out.

The biggest hurdle is that there is no incentive for "real" PvP'ers to participate in the new system to a significant degree.  They already dominate Arena play and receive the spoils and any e-peen bragging rights they need from that.  There's no overcoming the fact that it's much easier to work with and coordinate schedules with 1-4 other people instead of 9-39 others, not to mention many of them prefer the strait up death-match style play anyway.

Back in the Pre-BC days BG's were all you had.  Thus the hardcore PvP crowd was always the major driving force for putting pre-mades together.  However, often times they still had several spots/roles that needed to be filled and would pull in raiders who did occasional PvP or skilled/eager players who they may not have bothered to interact with otherwise.

If the hardcore PvP crowd just sticks to Arenas and only does the occasional rated BG for fun or the minimal honor they need for off-set PvP gear, I just don't see the rated BG system getting the interest and participation it needs to succeed.

[Nevermore]

TankSpot interview with Ghostcrawler

Focuses mostly on tanks of course but some interesting stuff.

[Musashi]

I think it will depend on the Battlegroup, and the time of day - as it always has.  Back in the day when you could queue for the first BG's as a group it was either brutal or lol 15 seconds depending on your server.  I was playing on Akama at the time, and the Horde drastically outnumbered Alliance, which made for insta queues for us.  The Horde had time to literally go farm people in Blackrock Mountain in between games.  Now that they have x-server it takes some of the brutality out of it (literally hours), but it can still be pretty painful if you're on the wrong side of the population imbalance.  But at least Blizz can occasionally move servers in and out of Battlegroups to try and balance it out.

The biggest hurdle is that there is no incentive for "real" PvP'ers to participate in the new system to a significant degree.  They already dominate Arena play and receive the spoils and any e-peen bragging rights they need from that.  There's no overcoming the fact that it's much easier to work with and coordinate schedules with 1-4 other people instead of 9-39 others, not to mention many of them prefer the strait up death-match style play anyway.

Back in the Pre-BC days BG's were all you had.  Thus the hardcore PvP crowd was always the major driving force for putting pre-mades together.  However, often times they still had several spots/roles that needed to be filled and would pull in raiders who did occasional PvP or skilled/eager players who they may not have bothered to interact with otherwise.

If the hardcore PvP crowd just sticks to Arenas and only does the occasional rated BG for fun or the minimal honor they need for off-set PvP gear, I just don't see the rated BG system getting the interest and participation it needs to succeed.

I think you may be drastically underestimating the competitiveness of internet dickheads.

[Fordel]

The difference between back in the day and now. Is back in the day people formed pre-set groups to roll the other randoms.



Shit, look how long it takes to even get a queue going for 5v5 Arena these days.

[Paelos]

5v5 Arenas are a bad example.

Because they suck. 

[Fordel]

I think we are going to get a week of super-hyper participation, then the shocking realization that most people will still get curb-stomped, then the remaining time will be the same 5 teams trading wins against each other.

[Merusk]

The biggest hurdle is that there is no incentive for "real" PvP'ers to participate in the new system to a significant degree.  They already dominate Arena play and receive the spoils and any e-peen bragging rights they need from that.  There's no overcoming the fact that it's much easier to work with and coordinate schedules with 1-4 other people instead of 9-39 others, not to mention many of them prefer the strait up death-match style play anyway.

Nah, not all "Real" PVPers enjoy Areans.   I've got three of my server's former GMs in my current guild.  None of them arena because they dislike death matches and enjoy the back and forth of a well-played battleground much more.  One of them still regularly BGs, even though she gets creamed because she doesn't get the uber stam/ resil gear due to her lack of arena play.

[Sheepherder]

Nah, at EJ Sheepherder would have been banned after his first post, and Kild probably would have been banned for encouraging him. 

I actually have an account in good standing there which I basically don't post on at all.

As I recall the only infraction I got was a comment that Blizzard should fix the normalization formula to not favour slow weapons, to limit pvp burst (around the same time Hammer of the Righteous was introduced).  Really, if the rule of this forum was "No neckbeard or we infraction you!" I could probably live with that...  I'd just take it to game design.

Back in the Pre-BC days BG's were all you had.  Thus the hardcore PvP crowd was always the major driving force for putting pre-mades together.  However, often times they still had several spots/roles that needed to be filled and would pull in raiders who did occasional PvP or skilled/eager players who they may not have bothered to interact with otherwise.

Back in the pre-BC days BG's were all you had, and so you geared up in raids and then rolled retards.

Personally, I don't see why raid gear and pvp gear should have different stat allocations to keep people from jumping from pvp to raiding and vice versa in the same set, so long as they do something to un-break Burst/CC and bridge the gear differences.  I'm hoping that the news concerning instances will be the harbingers of one massive battlegroup merge and gear-based matching for BG pvp, like Warhammer was supposed to have, and actually had me interested.

[Paelos]

If you really want to go "back in the day" the only thing you had was Terran Mill.

[Merusk]

If you really want to go "back in the day" the only thing you had was Terran Mill.

And it was goddamn FUN.

[Selby]

And it was goddamn FUN.

Fun for the 60's steamrolling the 20's.

[Musashi]

It was only fun for lack of anything else.

[Merusk]

And it was goddamn FUN.

Fun for the 60's steamrolling the 20's.

Nah, PVE server.  We didn't even push into the town as Alliance because we knew the horde would give up and go away were that the case.  We'd smack guards around until Horde 50s' and 60's started showing up.. then they'd charge us all en masse and the brawl was on for the night, traveling back and forth between southshore and TM for hours on end.  Each side swelling, peaking then ebbing off as the other side grew.   Pointless, but lots of fun.   The only 20's who got killed were those dumb enough to try and pick-off a high level who'd retreated to heal. 

[Ingmar]

And it was goddamn FUN.

Fun for the 60's steamrolling the 20's.

Nah, PVE server.  We didn't even push into the town as Alliance because we knew the horde would give up and go away were that the case.  We'd smack guards around until Horde 50s' and 60's started showing up.. then they'd charge us all en masse and the brawl was on for the night, traveling back and forth between southshore and TM for hours on end.  Each side swelling, peaking then ebbing off as the other side grew.   Pointless, but lots of fun.   The only 20's who got killed were those dumb enough to try and pick-off a high level who'd retreated to heal. 

Damn that stupid wandering mushroom seller though.

[Ratman_tf]

Way too grindy gameplay, and way too irrelevant world. I still don't know why I had to spend ten levels in outer space gaining rep with giant smurfs before I could get back to WoW.

It's a very quick ten levels.  Having nearly quit several times just trying to reach Outland, I much perfer them trying to make Azeroth, where I spent 60 levels, a more enjoyable experience.  They can fiddle with Outland next content patch/expansion.

I've leveled characters past 60 twice now, and the big slowdown, and least favorite part is when I step through that goddamn dark portal. Once I just stopped playing. The second time I gritted my teeth and did it, but hated every step.

They can toss the whole thing out of the game for all I care.

[Rendakor]

Ratman I've honestly had the exact opposite experience. On my past 3 characters, 50-58 is just a nightmare. After the Hinterlands there are no good questhubs, so you have to bounce around earning half a level here, a level there, etc. Once you get to Hellfire you're back in quest heaven, STV style.

[Malakili]

Ratman I've honestly had the exact opposite experience. On my past 3 characters, 50-58 is just a nightmare. After the Hinterlands there are no good questhubs, so you have to bounce around earning half a level here, a level there, etc. Once you get to Hellfire you're back in quest heaven, STV style.

Plaguelands?

[Selby]

Plaguelands?

Felwood, Winterspring.  I finish up at 60 before even getting more than a quest chain or two into the plaguelands these days.  There is no doubt that there is alot of running around in those zones though.  It's nowhere near the nightmare it used to be of being quested out at 52 and having to endure grinding to get past 55-56 where questing picked up again.

[Malakili]

Plaguelands?

Felwood, Winterspring.  I finish up at 60 before even getting more than a quest chain or two into the plaguelands these days.  There is no doubt that there is alot of running around in those zones though.  It's nowhere near the nightmare it used to be of being quested out at 52 and having to endure grinding to get past 55-56 where questing picked up again.

Very true.  They even added in a second flight point into Felwood though (a while ago), so it really cuts down on the running up and down the entire zone that used to happen. 

[AutomaticZen]

And it was goddamn FUN.

Fun for the 60's steamrolling the 20's.

Nah, PVE server.  We didn't even push into the town as Alliance because we knew the horde would give up and go away were that the case.  We'd smack guards around until Horde 50s' and 60's started showing up.. then they'd charge us all en masse and the brawl was on for the night, traveling back and forth between southshore and TM for hours on end.  Each side swelling, peaking then ebbing off as the other side grew.   Pointless, but lots of fun.   The only 20's who got killed were those dumb enough to try and pick-off a high level who'd retreated to heal. 

PVP Server.  You're coming in on the flight path and you see the carnage, but there's no way to stop yourself.  You land.  Dead.  The guards are fighting a Warrior outside of town.  You try to fly out, but the Flight Master was the first to die.  You're rogue raped.  You hide in the church.  Dead again.  You try to run, they mount up and chase you down.  You log.

Fuck Hillsbrad.

[Ratman_tf]

Ratman I've honestly had the exact opposite experience. On my past 3 characters, 50-58 is just a nightmare. After the Hinterlands there are no good questhubs, so you have to bounce around earning half a level here, a level there, etc. Once you get to Hellfire you're back in quest heaven, STV style.

I'm not gonna strut it and say my opinion is the only right one. I did do it on a Pally both times, and they're not the quickest levelers in the pack. But Outlands seems so.... slow... compared to vanilla WoW. I did do the second run after the XP/Leveling boost, and that combined with using Jame's leveling guide took me to 60 pretty quickly.

[Jayce]

I just did Outland on my poor old abandoned warrior, still wearing MC and level 60 craftable epics.

It did seem slower this time through, but fortunately there is so much quest/xp overkill now that you should never have to do a quest you don't like.  I got tired of Hellfire, moved on to Zangarmarsh, then left for Nagrand (my favorite) at the first chance.  I wasn't able to quite pull 68 out of Nagrand so I did Blade's Edge.  All of Terrokar, Shadowmoon and Netherstorm are still untouched.

Flying at 60 is also incredibly, stupendously convenient.

[Soulflame]

My eldest just leveled through outland, she doesn't care for HFP at all, but completed enough of the quests there for the achievement.  Zangar got her to 68, and she moved to SMV, where she seems to be having a great old time.  I got to take my ghost seeing helmet out of the bank!

She'll be bugging me to upgrade her account to Wrath this weekend, no doubt. The flying mount (can you send me 200 gold daaaad? sure...why not) was a huge boost for her, so it'll be interesting to see how she handles Northrend.

[Ingmar]

Ratman I've honestly had the exact opposite experience. On my past 3 characters, 50-58 is just a nightmare. After the Hinterlands there are no good questhubs, so you have to bounce around earning half a level here, a level there, etc. Once you get to Hellfire you're back in quest heaven, STV style.

I'm not gonna strut it and say my opinion is the only right one. I did do it on a Pally both times, and they're not the quickest levelers in the pack. But Outlands seems so.... slow... compared to vanilla WoW. I did do the second run after the XP/Leveling boost, and that combined with using Jame's leveling guide took me to 60 pretty quickly.

Once Lich King hit they also lowered the XP curve in Outland to match what they had previously done for 20-60, so if you haven't done it since then, it is much faster. Like, ding 68 in the 2nd or 3rd zone you hit faster.

[Rendakor]

Neither WPL nor Felwood alone have enough quests to get you even from 50-55. EPL and Winterspring are both to high level to quest in at level 50.

[kildorn]

49-53ish is the "urgh this sucks" zone, still. They seem to be working on it with Cataclysm (one of the stated things was moving to an overlapping and smaller level bracket per zone)

[Jayce]

49-53ish is the "urgh this sucks" zone, still. They seem to be working on it with Cataclysm (one of the stated things was moving to an overlapping and smaller level bracket per zone)

Burning Steppes/Searing Gorge? Un'Goro? Dare I say... Azshara? Those are the ones I'd think about in that bracket and haven't seen mentioned yet.

[Rasix]

Once Lich King hit they also lowered the XP curve in Outland to match what they had previously done for 20-60, so if you haven't done it since then, it is much faster. Like, ding 68 in the 2nd or 3rd zone you hit faster.

Everyone says that, but I usually burn through Hellfire, Zangar, Nagrand and then I'm at 66/67.  I usually go and finish up in Netherstorm because the quests are so tightly grouped together.

Of course, I usually run out of rested EXP for most of it given just how fast you burn through it.

edit: End of old world for me is usually Un'goro (if there's anything left), Felwood, Winterspring and maybe a bit of the Plaguelands until I hit 58 (then goodbye fuckers, off to space).  Azshara is pretty useless for horde too.  By the time I got to it, there were like 3 quests left for my level.  Blasted Lands is good, but by the time I finish with Un'goro I'm past it.

[Sjofn]

49-53ish is the "urgh this sucks" zone, still. They seem to be working on it with Cataclysm (one of the stated things was moving to an overlapping and smaller level bracket per zone)

Burning Steppes/Searing Gorge? Un'Goro? Dare I say... Azshara? Those are the ones I'd think about in that bracket and haven't seen mentioned yet.

Azshara is completely useless as a zone for Alliance and I'm glad it's getting blowed up. I like to wander into Silithis once in a while, though, because it's soooooo empty. 

[kildorn]

49-53ish is the "urgh this sucks" zone, still. They seem to be working on it with Cataclysm (one of the stated things was moving to an overlapping and smaller level bracket per zone)

Burning Steppes/Searing Gorge? Un'Goro? Dare I say... Azshara? Those are the ones I'd think about in that bracket and haven't seen mentioned yet.

Searing is green, and Burning and Ungoro are both orange. The problem is that all the zones start or end at 50, and usually have an assumption of you getting a few levels elsewhere. With the XP changes, I found I'd burned all yellow and low orange quests by the time I hit 49, and everything else was a little silly on the difficulty, or effectively grinding greens.

51 gets a lot better, but 51-53 is still a bit obnoxious where you'll run smack into +3 mobs on quests and still lack the massive power boost characters get with TBC gear opening up.

This is just all from my last attempt at leveling. I may level in a really odd pattern.

edit: fuck blowing up Ashzara! I've been waiting for that BG entrance to work longer than you've been waiting on Uldum!

[Hindenburg]

Azshara is useless for everyone, barely has any quests in it as horde. Only good thing about it is killing Azuregos every once in a while, nice gold to it.

Silithus is terrible for leveling, mobs there have more hp and hit harder than everywhere else.