Cataclysm

[Koyasha]

The timeline issues were raised at Blizzcon.  I'm sure I remembered someone asking how come there be goblin and wolfman DKs if it's all post-Wrath.  Apparently the developers just shrugged their shoulders and moved to the next question.

If I remember right, the answer was pretty much that they thought about that, but decided it probably wouldn't be fun to limit them (and presumably any future classes) based on that one lore reason alone, but they hadn't given it too much thought and there's the possibility that it might change before release.  But probably not.

[Merusk]

There's already goblins and worgen running around Silverpine/ Alterac mts.. just assume any DKs were related to those NPCs.

[Sheepherder]

Sure, prove to me that blizzard wants a random rotation. Because there is a whole ONE class with any ability that favors a random rotation in the game of World of Warcraft. Every other class/spec has a set rotation.

"We like situational abilities. When specs don’t have situational abilities, it’s easy to fall into a very fixed rotation. We call this the metronome. Push button 1, 2, 3 on your keyboard over and over until the bad guy drops loot. We have made more of an effort in all the classes to have certain moments that require players to pay attention a little more and then reward them when they both cause those situations to happen and then execute on them."

"I think if anything, abilities like this need to be more prominent. You should be less effective at your job if you ignore them, and ideally you’d also be less effective if you just macro’d them in. We like macros (obviously, or we wouldn’t have them in the game), but we like for them to simplify chains of things that you have to do often without making decisions in between point A and B. We don’t like it when playing your class becomes how clever your macro can be to the point at which you are pushing one button to play your class. That’s not playing an RPG -- that’s programming a robot. "

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=18358914172&sid=1

Quoted from the Blizzard Warrior Q&A.  There's also similar, smaller comments for several other classes (balance druid, mutilate rogue, frost mage) where they want to add or fix up situational abilities in order to break up the rotation.

Also, there's these talents: Rime; Eclipse; Lock and Load; Hot Streak; Brain Freeze; The Art of War; Seal Fate (2-4 Combo points per Mutilate use); Ruthlessness (60% chance for combo point after finisher); Honor Among Thieves (totally fucking berserk combo point generation); Maelstrom Weapon (highly variable, highest priority); Sudden Death; Bloodsurge.

That's ignoring most of the talents that are relatively predictable, require minimal adjustment of rotation, generally fall into a different rotation, or have a low chance of being lost (Rogue energy returns, Taste For Blood, Fingers of Frost, Eradication, Decimation, etc.)  that's ignoring tank specs with random bullshit (Sword & Board).  That's also ignoring the plain fucking freaky rage generation inherent to fury at the moment, between Flurry, and Titan's Grip.

Beyond this, what you're proposing is a bizarre system in which your damage output is.. completely random. Which is not what they've been going for in PVP at all. In case you've missed it, they've clearly stated such, because random in pvp eliminates skill (plenty of other things could be said to eliminate it as well, but I can state definitively that random in pvp reduces skill in the equation signifigantly)

I see...  So what you're saying is that critical strikes occuring entirely at random and then proccing +damage effects is "skillful", as is random % chance procs off of normal hits, but a reactive ability that does a moderate-high amount of damage when otherwise you would do none, or adds an effect that amounts to the same thing, is "bursty."

Seriously, give me an example of a good "on miss" ability for, say, a warlock in which it's not gimping my damage output, rewards me for understanding it, and does not reward failing to hit. I have Immo up on a target, conflag misses. What spell would possibly reward me for skilled usage of it that would beat 14k damage, a 5s snare, and a 3 shot 30% casting speed buff, but NOT be more powerful simply as a "cast this if you miss and detonate your opponent"

Did I not already explicitly state that rewarding failure to hit (and subsequent adaptation) was the entire fucking point?  Did I not explicitly state that Blizzard's schema of rotations hinging on single abilities which must not fail to hit was retarded?  Or did you just dismiss that, figuring that a 25% buff to all caster DPS (using your figures) was the perfectly acceptable solution, because otherwise the single ability which defines the destro warlock rotation might miss?

The fuck?  You're justifying the rotations being utter shit for perpetuity, based on the fact that the existing rotations are utter shit?  Correct me if I'm wrong here...

[Jayce]

All the DKs that have ever been or ever will be were made just prior to the Battle of Light's Hope Chapel. Some of them just haven't experienced it yet 

[Khaldun]

I think in that quote, what Blizz wants is not random nor a predictable rotation--what they're looking for is situational awareness, with most classes needing to keep abilities that have to be used at particular moments in order to maximize effectiveness. Tanks are already a bit that way, that's what makes tanking a tougher job than just pouring dps on a mob. But I don't know that Blizz can really design a system fully like that back into the game, because it really takes something more like Age of Conan's combat engine, something designed from the bottom up to reward combos, quasi-twitchy ability use, group synergies, and so on.

[Simond]

I sweated the whole time-paradox thing briefly, until someone in this thread pointed out the obvious: The timeline has been fucked since WOTLK launched, with death knights rebelling against the Lich King and then somehow traveling back in time to fight in Outland and level up.

*handwave*The Dark Portal moves you in time as well as space*handwave*
Gissa job, Metzen. I can do lore. 

Oh, and apparently the F&F alpha for Cataclysm is due to start next month. As in, next week.

[kildorn]

Also, there's these talents: Rime; Eclipse; Lock and Load; Hot Streak; Brain Freeze; The Art of War; Seal Fate (2-4 Combo points per Mutilate use); Ruthlessness (60% chance for combo point after finisher); Honor Among Thieves (totally fucking berserk combo point generation); Maelstrom Weapon (highly variable, highest priority); Sudden Death; Bloodsurge.

That's ignoring most of the talents that are relatively predictable, require minimal adjustment of rotation, generally fall into a different rotation, or have a low chance of being lost (Rogue energy returns, Taste For Blood, Fingers of Frost, Eradication, Decimation, etc.)  that's ignoring tank specs with random bullshit (Sword & Board).  That's also ignoring the plain fucking freaky rage generation inherent to fury at the moment, between Flurry, and Titan's Grip.

Beyond this, what you're proposing is a bizarre system in which your damage output is.. completely random. Which is not what they've been going for in PVP at all. In case you've missed it, they've clearly stated such, because random in pvp eliminates skill (plenty of other things could be said to eliminate it as well, but I can state definitively that random in pvp reduces skill in the equation signifigantly)

I see...  So what you're saying is that critical strikes occuring entirely at random and then proccing +damage effects is "skillful", as is random % chance procs off of normal hits, but a reactive ability that does a moderate-high amount of damage when otherwise you would do none, or adds an effect that amounts to the same thing, is "bursty."

Seriously, give me an example of a good "on miss" ability for, say, a warlock in which it's not gimping my damage output, rewards me for understanding it, and does not reward failing to hit. I have Immo up on a target, conflag misses. What spell would possibly reward me for skilled usage of it that would beat 14k damage, a 5s snare, and a 3 shot 30% casting speed buff, but NOT be more powerful simply as a "cast this if you miss and detonate your opponent"

Did I not already explicitly state that rewarding failure to hit (and subsequent adaptation) was the entire fucking point?  Did I not explicitly state that Blizzard's schema of rotations hinging on single abilities which must not fail to hit was retarded?  Or did you just dismiss that, figuring that a 25% buff to all caster DPS (using your figures) was the perfectly acceptable solution, because otherwise the single ability which defines the destro warlock rotation might miss?

The fuck?  You're justifying the rotations being utter shit for perpetuity, based on the fact that the existing rotations are utter shit?  Correct me if I'm wrong here...

I'm justifying the rotations being relatively standard because there's no other real option beyond going into branching style chain systems. At which point you'll still wind up with a DPS chain, because all a chain is would be "the order you use skills in to maximize damage"

Eclipse: probably one of the only abilities on the list which requires you to actually change shit up. You'll also note that changed it around because as it used to be, it was a skill that would HURT your DPS if it procced half the time.

Actually, every ability on your list barring the rogue ones causes you to simply have fall through macros and Boom, skill averted. "attempt to use overpower on every ability, if it's not up, use normal ability" Taste for blood Solved. Decimation isn't at all random, and is calculated into rotations (it's an execute variant, not something to break up your rotation if things light up)

HaT does not alter rotations at all, you still just hit builder until 5, evis/rupture/SnD depending on what isn't up and how fast you're generating CPs (plus, they seem to want to break HaT spec, because it's a really stupid spec.)

Maelstrom is a terrible example, because Enhance shaman aren't doing jack all with GCD locking, so it's just a bonus when it's ready.

And none of this comes down to your amazingly stupid idea of adding "on miss" abilities. Specifically, you couldn't come up with a single example for my missed spell that would make it better, instead wanting, apparently, to burn the entire skill tree to the ground and make WoW2, instead of something sane like accepting that Missing is not part of the high end game of WoW, and if you want something more skill based and interesting, the question would be "why not make two instants I can burn off of Immolate on a shared cooldown, so I have to pick the right thing to use at the right moment"

But hey, whichever one does ~1dps more for the raid is the only one I'll ever fucking hit. Because that's what PVE is: the best order to click buttons in to deal the most damage. And no matter how much you want to try and make the rotation different, all you do is wind up with the priority system DKs use. Which is just as simple as 1-2-3-4, because it's not that hard to say "oh, and if KM procs, hit 4 I guess"

I'm not trying to justify rotations being utter shit, because my premise is that they're not utter shit. But I do agree with you that random crits and proccing +damage abilities is about as low skill as randomly giving me burst damage on a miss. I'm a huge fan of eliminating crit based specs and never letting crit get over 2-5% on anything. Because Crits make for shitty PVP, as show by how much they've been trying to mitigate burst damage on pvp gear. But nobody will ever let us take away their silly 15k crits because the big number is neat.

[Nevermore]

All the DKs that have ever been or ever will be were made just prior to the Battle of Light's Hope Chapel. Some of them just haven't experienced it yet 

Let's say this is the case.  Worgen and Goblins were still in existence at the time, so why couldn't they have been made DKs back then?  I imagine they'll be going through the DK tutorial on character creation since they'll be starting at 55 like the other DKs.

[K9]

I'm going to guess that Worgen and Goblin DKs may not be in at release, but will be unlocked in patch 4.1

[Mattemeo]

I'm going to guess that Worgen and Goblin DKs may not be in at release, but will be unlocked in patch 4.1

I am absolutely certain Goblin and Worgen DKs will not be available at release, the same way Goblin and Worgens will not be on the Race Reroll list at first, either. Blizzard have fairly implicitely said they don't want the new races to be at end game immediately. You know there are levelling cartels out there that mean there'll be at least 50 L80s of each within a week of Cataclysm going gold but they're the mad minority.

4.1 for DKs/Race Rerolls is a good guess.

I do, however, think that Goblin/Worgen DKs completely futz the timeline, but hey - lolore - fun should always prevail.

[Xanthippe]

I am so looking forward to this expansion.  Been playing since open beta, leveled plenty of alts, both sides (mostly Alliance though, Horde only through Outlands). 

Azeroth needs an update badly.  If I was new to the game now, I doubt I'd make it through the old-style leveling without a significant xp boost (a la refer-a-friend).  Too much travel for quests.

I'm disappointed that there won't be more character slots added, though.

[Paelos]

I see this expansion as "WoW: Roll A Goblin In Azeroth 2.0" This either excites you or it doesn't.

[Lantyssa]

It's a very quick ten levels.

The way it is now is no way remotely how it was when it was released.  It was a grindfest of epic proportions.

That's all well and true.  They aren't designing around the game as it was three years ago, they're designing against it as it is now.  That means the 1-60 content is a lot more of a grind than 60-70.  It's also been around longer.  It could use a fresh coat of paint.

Let's say this is the case.  Worgen and Goblins were still in existence at the time, so why couldn't they have been made DKs back then?  I imagine they'll be going through the DK tutorial on character creation since they'll be starting at 55 like the other DKs.

I'm not seeing the disconnect either.  Worgen have been in Silverpine since WoW started.  Goblins have been around a lot longer.  Them starting in the DK area "after" WotLK is no different than anyone else starting a new DK at this point.

[Nevermore]

I see this expansion as "WoW: Roll A Goblin In Azeroth 2.0" This either excites you or it doesn't.

The leveling experience will change for all new characters.  I'm definitely planning on starting a new Night Elf and Forsaken when the expansion comes out at the very least.  A Gnome and Troll, too.  Possibly even a Human and Tauren, but we'll see.

Let's say this is the case.  Worgen and Goblins were still in existence at the time, so why couldn't they have been made DKs back then?  I imagine they'll be going through the DK tutorial on character creation since they'll be starting at 55 like the other DKs.

I'm not seeing the disconnect either.  Worgen have been in Silverpine since WoW started.  Goblins have been around a lot longer.  Them starting in the DK area "after" WotLK is no different than anyone else starting a new DK at this point.

Just look at the whole DK tutorial as a flashback.  That solves all the Worgen/Goblin DK time issues.

[Righ]

That's fine. Why not do that and then phase the post-Cataclysm stuff on separate from that? Just because they're writing new quests for 1-60 at the same time as writing Cataclysm content, there's no reason that the writers have to make everything post-Cataclysm, especially with phasing.

Because there's no point in redoing the old world if nobody's going to level in it (again, way too huge for all of it to be 60+ stuff) and allowing access to either version when leveling would be a huge division of the playerbase, which would be batshit insane after putting so much work into making the low-level content popular.

That's an irrational argument. They are redoing the old world. You are assuming that people require the content to be post-Cataclysm in order to want to play it. If they just don't want to do 1-60, they won't. If they want to do 1-60 because they want to level up new characters and experience the new quests, it will not matter whether it is pre- or post-Cataclysm. Again, if they are redoing the old world and do have phasing technology, there is little added overhead in allowing pre-Cataclysm to exist on the same terrain that post-Cataclysm does. Both can even share the bulk of the same quests. Chief Hawkwind is going to want you to kill those quillboars no matter what period of history you're in.

[ezrast]

That would be the second half of the thing I said:

allowing access to either version when leveling would be a huge division of the playerbase, which would be batshit insane after putting so much work into making the low-level content popular.

Pre- and post-cataclysm sharing terrain makes no sense if you look at any of the announced changes. Barrens is being split into two zones. Thousand Needles is being flooded. I don't know what conception of phasing you have that magically allows both versions to exist in the same place at the same time.

[Musashi]

...gamers who only speak in exclamation marks and are likely to say simply "Dude! Goblin Death Knights! Ossum!"  I'm in this group.

Apparently, Blizzard is in this group too.

The timeline issues were raised at Blizzcon.  I'm sure I remembered someone asking how come there be goblin and wolfman DKs if it's all post-Wrath.  Apparently the developers just shrugged their shoulders and moved to the next question.  

Also lolgoblins!11!!!!

[WindupAtheist]

Plus who gives a fuck? Why would they WANT to create a whole new pre-cataclysm world as well as a whole new post-cataclysm one? Who gives a shit?

[Musashi]

That's fine. Why not do that and then phase the post-Cataclysm stuff on separate from that? Just because they're writing new quests for 1-60 at the same time as writing Cataclysm content, there's no reason that the writers have to make everything post-Cataclysm, especially with phasing.

Because there's no point in redoing the old world if nobody's going to level in it (again, way too huge for all of it to be 60+ stuff) and allowing access to either version when leveling would be a huge division of the playerbase, which would be batshit insane after putting so much work into making the low-level content popular.

That's an irrational argument. They are redoing the old world. You are assuming that people require the content to be post-Cataclysm in order to want to play it. If they just don't want to do 1-60, they won't. If they want to do 1-60 because they want to level up new characters and experience the new quests, it will not matter whether it is pre- or post-Cataclysm. Again, if they are redoing the old world and do have phasing technology, there is little added overhead in allowing pre-Cataclysm to exist on the same terrain that post-Cataclysm does. Both can even share the bulk of the same quests. Chief Hawkwind is going to want you to kill those quillboars no matter what period of history you're in.

If they phase the old world, how will they sell legacy servers?

[Righ]

I don't know what conception of phasing you have that magically allows both versions to exist in the same place at the same time.

 

[Modern Angel]

You understand that phasing exists when you're dead and ghost running, right?

[Ingmar]

For what it's worth, DKs were on the character select screen for both Worgen and Goblins, but greyed out as they wanted us to play the new area obviously. They were also asked about it in a panel and I believe the answer was "yeah, it is a little weird, and we might or might not get rid of DKs for them because of that, but we're not sure it really matters." Or something along those lines.

[kildorn]

For what it's worth, DKs were on the character select screen for both Worgen and Goblins, but greyed out as they wanted us to play the new area obviously. They were also asked about it in a panel and I believe the answer was "yeah, it is a little weird, and we might or might not get rid of DKs for them because of that, but we're not sure it really matters." Or something along those lines.

I thought it was "yeah it makes no sense, and we talked about it a LOT, but we'd rather it be fun and let them be DKs than worry about the logic behind it"

Which seemed to be his (joke or not) idea behind worgen priests as well: "worgen shadow priests would just be cool"

They've painted themselves into a lollore corner no matter what, may as well just aim for fun rather than temporal issues. Chromie can take us back in time and have us do an escort quest that brings a pack of worgen and goblins to the Arthas to be converted into death knights. Chromie fixes everything.

[Slyfeind]

There's lore?

Seriously, arguing about worgen death knights seems akin to arguing about Cobra Commander and Baroness being brother and sister. Surely an issue to some, though I can't fathom why.

[Malakili]

WoW gave up on lore when they realized their character base just doesn't care.   A steady line of dinggrats keeps people playing long term.   Even people on gaming sites like this, where the majority of us would probably be considered hardcore just by frequenting a site like this, regardless of what or how much we play, aren't going to quit over it is most cases.  What does blizzard really have to gain by shoe horning themselves into the lore when they can just ignore it and make whatever they want up?

[Bzalthek]

Lore, more often than not, is usually just an excuse.  Some things people just don't like, and they can't really explain it, but the lore contradiction gives them an easy thing to point to.

And then there are some people who cry and moan over time lines and how things should be consistent with how they imagined they should be.  And these people are pretty sad.

[Mattemeo]

Intelligent design at this point might be to slip a few Goblins in DK armor around Ebon Hold places of interest over the next few content patches. Worgen'll be harder to do because of course the NPC and player models are drastically different but if you consider how many times dear old Sylvanas has changed her spots I don't suppose it'd matter much. It's just an atmospheric thing that'd make the Goblin/Worgen DK transition a lot smoother feeling and perhaps satisfy the lore-zealots to some degree.

Or better still, since Goblins are so damn factional/money hungry, there could always be an entire faction of Goblins who submitted to Arthas' will just to secure trade with an endless supply of customers...

[Lantyssa]

Gah!  Do any of the people going 'lollore' actually give a damn about lore?  It's easier to make this work than most of the things they've done in the past.  It just requires enough suspension of disbelief to say "You've simply never crossed paths with one of these guys until now".  They don't have to rewrite or retconn anything.

Why is this even worth discussing?  How about something more important like can I paint my worgen's nails a pretty colour?

[Simond]

Ah, I take it you haven't seen the concept art yet:

[Mattemeo]

Some of the 'concept' work they showed was blatantly done earlier that morning. The Female Worgen and Worgen Mount are chief suspects.

[Lantyssa]

No, I hadn't seen that.  I like it.

Worgen shouldn't have a mount.  They can use horses or other racial mounts in human form, they should get running otherwise.

[Ingmar]

Man, that would really cause some Tauren tears.

[WindupAtheist]

I don't get the point of rated battlegrounds. I want to get good shit from doing something SOLO, not sign up for a 15v15 arena team.

[Nevermore]

I think it looks pretty good as well.  What did people expect them to look like?

[Rasix]

They can use horses or other racial mounts in human form, they should get running otherwise.

I would have only played Tauren if they would have given them plains running like originally intended.