Cataclysm

[Rendakor]

Just because WoW has a directed leveling experience doesn't mean that it cannot have a new one with revamped zones.

[Ratman_tf]

Just because WoW has a directed leveling experience doesn't mean that it cannot have a new one with revamped zones.

Doesn't it? Vanillla WoW means 1-60. Putting new high level content in the old zones is a 180 from the current design of 'onwards and upwards!' Kara is an odd-fish and I think a new expansion that puts all of it's raid and dungeon content on Kalimdor or Lorderon is going to feel like more recycling, even if they're new areas of old zones.

Assuming this is all more than fanwank, of course.

[Kail]

The only thing troubling me is the whole question of how Outland and Northrend would fit in.

These problems already exist in the game.  Doing the Death Knight starter chain, you run into books talking about how the Horde and Alliance are heading home from Outlands after killing everything there.  Then, you finish the starter chain and find out that the Horde and Alliance are just heading out into the Outlands to kill everything there.  Everyone in Shattrath is still all worked up over Kil'Jaeden, who'll be eating the world any day now.  You slaughter the Scarlet Crusade and they retreat to Northrend, but once you're done with the starter chain, they're not beaten anymore, until you get to Northrend, at which point they are again.  Kael'thas is in Tempest Keep and Magister's Terrace at the same time.  Katrana Prestor in the throne room while Onyxia's head hangs over the gates.  Blizzard doesn't care.

[Sjofn]

Just because WoW has a directed leveling experience doesn't mean that it cannot have a new one with revamped zones.

Doesn't it? Vanillla WoW means 1-60. Putting new high level content in the old zones is a 180 from the current design of 'onwards and upwards!' Kara is an odd-fish and I think a new expansion that puts all of it's raid and dungeon content on Kalimdor or Lorderon is going to feel like more recycling, even if they're new areas of old zones.

I really, strongly disagree with you there. My biggest problem with Outland is that it's such a random ass detour for the Alliance people. You spend 58 levels in Azeroth and then drop everything to go to some world that you really don't have much of a real connection to (it felt a LOT more natural to want to go there as an orc). I would LOVE to do high level content on the "real" world where my characters supposedly make their home. Northrend was a lot better in that regard, in that it was all stuff happening on THAT world with characters we've known since we were level 12 (Old Blanchy in Grizzly Hills, for example!). Having high level content in the parts of Azeroth that never had stuff before wouldn't really be that weird. I've always found zoning into HIGH LEVEL LAND weirder than in vanilla where the high level stuff was just tucked away like Onyxia's Lair. As you level you just know HERE BE DRAGONS and don't go in there until you've got your big girl pants.

[Paelos]

I still can't find the reasoning here. To put flying into the old game, you have to redesign the game from scratch. Two entire continents that are already functional would have to be reprogrammed and made into a single mass instead of seperate entities. They would have to fill in every hole and plug every placeholder. They would have to remember what parts they left out and what parts they needed to add on.

It's a ridiculous amount of effort for very little gain. Why not just leave it alone and focus half that effort on something new you can build from the ground up?

[Lakov_Sanite]

If this rumor is true, I just see it as the sequel to wow being passed off as an expansion pack.

[Rendakor]

Just because WoW has a directed leveling experience doesn't mean that it cannot have a new one with revamped zones.

Doesn't it? Vanillla WoW means 1-60. Putting new high level content in the old zones is a 180 from the current design of 'onwards and upwards!' Kara is an odd-fish and I think a new expansion that puts all of it's raid and dungeon content on Kalimdor or Lorderon is going to feel like more recycling, even if they're new areas of old zones.

Assuming this is all more than fanwank, of course.

Caverns of Time is another counter example, but I see your point. However I don't expect this to be a problem because, if all this shit is true, they'll be old zones in name only. Vocano'd Barrens != Vanilla Barrens.

[Sheepherder]

SirBruce time.

I still can't find the reasoning here. To put flying into the old game, you have to redesign the game from scratch. Two entire continents that are already functional would have to be reprogrammed and made into a single mass instead of seperate entities.

There is no actual reprogramming involved.  It would be strictly terrain work to smooth the edges on the mountains, redo the capital city from above (because they buildings are often roofless and use some culling techniques to optimize framerates), put barriers around the edges of the continent so that players cannot fly off into infinity.  Actually placing the  continents on a single instance server is still not required.

They would have to fill in every hole and plug every placeholder. They would have to remember what parts they left out and what parts they needed to add on.

There aren't actually all that many holes.  Seriously, before you spout shit roll a shaman and tour around a little with far sight, or see if the map viewer is still working.  Most of the glaring errors you could fix with a single pass of a smooth brush, they would have a harder time tracking down every instance of "HELP" scrawled across normally unseen sections of Azeroth.

It's a ridiculous amount of effort for very little gain. Why not just leave it alone and focus half that effort on something new you can build from the ground up?

Because what you're describing is called mudflation, and it will be the death of this game.  By scattering the majority of the newbies to the four winds and rendering the game a bland RPG; or possibly by making the game a wall of Grunk level stupidity of the poopsocking type, as a natural conclusion of constantly increasing the level cap; or by making the entire early game an incomprehensible mess by massively lowered experience requirements constantly pushing players into new zones without going through the standard breadcrumb -> meaty stuff -> conclusion -> breadcrumb sequence.  All of these options kill all the fun possible in the game for anyone not leveling an alt who just wants to get to endgame at all costs, several may co-exist, and all of them result from not culling out non-endgame game filler that has since lost it's purpose.


Rendakor, Barrens has a volcano right now.

[Fordel]

I still can't find the reasoning here. To put flying into the old game, you have to redesign the game from scratch. Two entire continents that are already functional would have to be reprogrammed and made into a single mass instead of seperate entities.

Why would they have to merge the continents? People just fatigue out if they try to fly across the ocean.

[Rendakor]

Ok, erupted Volcano'd Barrens. Sorry, its 3am and I've been wiping in ToC25 for way too long. (However I just got the awesome tank chest off the Beasts  )

[Ratman_tf]

For the record, I generally dislike any expansion that works like BC and Wrath because it segregates the playerbase into those who have the expansion and those who don't. Granted, most WoW players will have it, but the mindset of leaving areas/zones behind forever rubs me the wrong way. I tolerate it in WoW because that's how it's been designed from the ground up. WoW is doomaged to mudflation, just like EQ and every other DIKU-alike. Leveling boosts like DK's starting at 55, and XP curve boosts are the first signs that things are getting just a bit too top heavy. And the efforts to fix this are going to be band aids. There is no cure, only management of the problem.

[Hellinar]

I still can't find the reasoning here. To put flying into the old game, you have to redesign the game from scratch. Two entire continents that are already functional would have to be reprogrammed and made into a single mass instead of seperate entities. They would have to fill in every hole and plug every placeholder. They would have to remember what parts they left out and what parts they needed to add on.

It's a ridiculous amount of effort for very little gain. Why not just leave it alone and focus half that effort on something new you can build from the ground up?

If they make the new version of the old continents a purely 80+ experience, the Cataclysm could conveniently cut off large sections they don't have to redo right now. To be revealed in later expansions. Also, the new version could be Emerald Dream ready, saving a lot of tricky work. If rebuilding the old continents gives them space for expansions to 100, then it would be worth the effort.

[kildorn]

If they abuse phasing well enough, it could make all the level 1 alts in the wrong version of stormwind and not lag up everyone's clients on loading, too ;)

Issues with running alts through instances, hrm. Kind of curious how they'll make all this revamping of old content and things like phasing of the new horde city work. While I love phasing when used well (Icecrown is Amazing as a zone, and likely their best work to date), it causes logistical issues with helping friends with quests.

[Lantyssa]

If any of this turns out to be true, do you know the best part?  I can finally party with those Trolls in Darkshore.

[WindupAtheist]

Phasing it so you only see the new version of Azeroth after you're level 80 would be god damned idiotic. Now all your newbs/alts are still stuck doing your shittiest content for 50+ levels, only they're doing it in a totally abandoned world since EVERYONE who has already done so is never coming back. What the hell would be the point?

If there's a reason to do this, it's because they've been hearing "Let everyone start at 55!" since death knights came along, and they've interpreted it as "The old 1-55 content sucks!" and decided to replace it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

If any of this turns out to be true, do you know the best part?  I can finally party with those Trolls in Darkshore.

There's actually a way to get to that village by doing some creative terrain jumping in winterspring and then levitating down, it's a 24/7 party.

[Triforcer]

If any of this turns out to be true, do you know the best part?  I can finally party with those Trolls in Darkshore.

There's actually a way to get to that village by doing some creative terrain jumping in winterspring and then levitating down, it's a 24/7 party.

I want to find the Pandaren settlement in Stonetalon, but it'll be a cold day in hell before they put a single Pandaren NPC in the game.  The risk of pissing off China somehow is simply too great. 

[AutomaticZen]

There is no actual reprogramming involved.  It would be strictly terrain work to smooth the edges on the mountains, redo the capital city from above (because they buildings are often roofless and use some culling techniques to optimize framerates), put barriers around the edges of the continent so that players cannot fly off into infinity.  Actually placing the  continents on a single instance server is still not required.

This is true.  Oddly enough, I've flown over Org and ?Undercity (on a private server) and there's nothing there.  Just walls that lead to a big gaping hole.  I assume, that big tunnel at the opening allows them to load the instance for the inside of the city itself.  Hence why Org probably has to go.  From the inside it looks like you should be able to fly in, but it's not actually connected to the outside.

[Paelos]

I honestly can't believe any of yall would be excited about the idea of reskinning the original game and calling it an expansion. If it's so easy to program in flight into the old content, why not release it as a feature patch after an expansion? If it's so hard, why not just say fuck it and focus on something else?

Releasing it as content you pay extra for on top of your monthly fee without at least 8 radically new zones open to the public simply isn't worth it.

[Rendakor]

Paelos I don't see what the problem is. A zone that is completely reskinned with altared geography and all new quests is just as much "new" content as one built from the ground up. The thing with flying is, it was too hard, they said fuck it, and people kept bitching (myself included). If Blizzard wants to abandon the old world, they should have let us start at 55. Instead they're trying to bring new life into the old content, which is a better solution. This is obviously more focused on the casual player (and people who like alts), rather than providing a longer, more intesting level treadmill for those already at 80. However, I have no doubt that there will be raids aplenty, so even that complaint isn't valid.

[Hellinar]

Phasing it so you only see the new version of Azeroth after you're level 80 would be god damned idiotic. Now all your newbs/alts are still stuck doing your shittiest content for 50+ levels, only they're doing it in a totally abandoned world since EVERYONE who has already done so is never coming back. What the hell would be the point?

If there's a reason to do this, it's because they've been hearing "Let everyone start at 55!" since death knights came along, and they've interpreted it as "The old 1-55 content sucks!" and decided to replace it.

Yeah.  Redoing the old content would be good. Though with higher experience speed, it could be compressed into a lot less zones. So your new alts do a fast run to 60, pop off through the caverns of time to stop the evil guys undoing history in the Outlands and Northrend, then come back to their current time to do post 80 content in the main world.

I'm a big fan of time travel and alternate worlds, so reskinning old content to show the passage of time is fine with me. Or making it an alternate version of reality in the Emerald Dream is good too. Time gates let every character be the hero who saved the world, if only be stopping the bad guys undo the previous victory.  Its as close as you are going to get in a MMOG to being a significant hero.

[Simond]

Phasing it so you only see the new version of Azeroth after you're level 80 would be god damned idiotic. Now all your newbs/alts are still stuck doing your shittiest content for 50+ levels, only they're doing it in a totally abandoned world since EVERYONE who has already done so is never coming back. What the hell would be the point?

If there's a reason to do this, it's because they've been hearing "Let everyone start at 55!" since death knights came along, and they've interpreted it as "The old 1-55 content sucks!" and decided to replace it.

My guess is that there's going to be a honking great 4.0 patch that contains all the non-instanced/non-'new' parts of Cataclysm which everyone will get, and the expansion itself will contain the actually-not-in-game-at-all-right-now new content, open the revamped/redone instances*, unlock the new class combos, allow flying, raise the level cap, etc etc.

I also would not be at all surprised if there's a all-in-one expansion pack that also contains TBC & WotLK as well (a la EQ2's expansion) at a slight premium over just the solo expansion.



*For the love of God, if BRD is still around, split it into at least three separate instances!

[Paelos]

This is obviously more focused on the casual player (and people who like alts), rather than providing a longer, more intesting level treadmill for those already at 80. However, I have no doubt that there will be raids aplenty, so even that complaint isn't valid.

While I would agree that their levelling situation is outdated, I don't think it deserves an overhaul in the guise of expansion. I also don't alt, so I can't give a flying fuck what they do from 1-55.

[ezrast]

You know there are some people who like leveling characters for its own sake? A lot of players get bored with their characters and roll tons of alts long before hitting 80, or even after. I am not one of those people - not by a fucking long shot - but I really don't see what's so bad about throwing them a bone for once instead of focusing 100% on content they don't see or care about.

[Paelos]

I don't see a problem with it at all. Let me say it again: "This is not a bad idea, but DON'T CALL IT AN EXPANSION AND MAKE US PAY FOR IT."

EDIT: To me it smacks of, "Hey pay us more money to redo our fuck-ups."

[ezrast]

Again, world revamp != new expansion. It's simply something the game needs, and tying it to the next expansion thematically just makes sense.

Phasing it so you only see the new version of Azeroth after you're level 80 would be god damned idiotic.

My guess is that there's going to be a honking great 4.0 patch that contains all the non-instanced/non-'new' parts of Cataclysm which everyone will get, and the expansion itself will contain the actually-not-in-game-at-all-right-now new content

Is this okay with you, then?

[Paelos]

Yeah, except it's a total wank. We have no fucking clue if Blizzard reps are sitting in their office laughing their asses off in front of big maps of the Undermine and Maelstrom.

I still want a new island. I always want a new island. Perhaps it's the explorer in me. 

[WindupAtheist]

New content is new content. If you want to bawl from here to infinity because they don't put it behind a big portal with a blinking NEW sign on top, well, whatever.

[Lakov_Sanite]

When Paelos goes shopping for a new car he buys a boat.

[DraconianOne]

I posted this in the "My top Warcraft wants" thread but as it's come up again, so it's probably worth posting again:

Why your Gryphon can't fly in Azeroth

There are huge swathes of flat, empty terrain all over the place that would need to be filled. Sure it could be bordered off but that means there's an artificial border over the area north of Stormwind, for example, that you just can't get into.  Seems to me like there would be an expansions worth of changes and new content added just to fill these areas in.

[Simond]

Yeah, except it's a total wank. We have no fucking clue if Blizzard reps are sitting in their office laughing their asses off in front of big maps of the Undermine and Maelstrom.

I still want a new island. I always want a new island. Perhaps it's the explorer in me. 

Theramore is going to technically be an island now. 


Background texture is from an Ulduar globe, the 'vector' lines are from a different Ulduar globe. Before and after, anyone?

[Lakov_Sanite]

I would say that was just the ulduar programmers being sloppy with lines but the fact they specifically made an island where there wasn't one smells of easter egg.


edit: Fuck ya, goodbye desolace.

[Sjofn]

Paelos I don't see what the problem is. A zone that is completely reskinned with altared geography and all new quests is just as much "new" content as one built from the ground up. The thing with flying is, it was too hard, they said fuck it, and people kept bitching (myself included). If Blizzard wants to abandon the old world, they should have let us start at 55. Instead they're trying to bring new life into the old content, which is a better solution. This is obviously more focused on the casual player (and people who like alts), rather than providing a longer, more intesting level treadmill for those already at 80. However, I have no doubt that there will be raids aplenty, so even that complaint isn't valid.

I agree with the above 100%. I don't think they like that people basically leave Azeroth and never come back at level 58. After all, that's been their reasoning behind not putting trainers and auction houses in the new expansion capitals. Essentially rebuilding old zones, with all they've learned the past five years? Yeah, sorry, that IS new content, and I find the hand wringing over how it's just a revamp of the entire fuckin' world hilarious. (Assuming this is all true of course. I hope it is!)

[Sheepherder]

There are huge swathes of flat, empty terrain all over the place that would need to be filled. Sure it could be bordered off but that means there's an artificial border over the area north of Stormwind, for example, that you just can't get into.  Seems to me like there would be an expansions worth of changes and new content added just to fill these areas in.

Terraining is actually trivial, an area like the one between Redridge and Burning Steppes could easily be done passably in a day by someone experienced with the tools.  It's only when you start adding small things like little painstakingly decorated campsites and towns built on ground of varying height when world construction takes a lot of work, none of which these empty expanses actually require.

The capital cities being freakish when seen from above is due to culling of some sort, "fixing" it might be as easy as selecting and deleting meshes and scripts that partition the city in the way you see it.  If you want to see something comparable the technique is used extensively in Unreal Tournament with depth-less "sheet" brushes (which are invisible in-game but not in the editor) and zoneinfo actors.

[Fordel]

I still want a new island. I always want a new island. Perhaps it's the explorer in me. 

There's a new island on the back of a Giant Turtle!