Cataclysm

[WindupAtheist]

On a related note, lately I've been throwing on a blue mace and shield I bought off a rep vendor and ghetto tanking the low WOTLK normals for guildies with my PVP ret gear/spec. It's kinda fun. Haven't they said that a DPS is supposed to be able to just throw on a shield and tank 5 mans in Cataclysm?

[Lakov_Sanite]

On a related note, lately I've been throwing on a blue mace and shield I bought off a rep vendor and ghetto tanking the low WOTLK normals for guildies with my PVP ret gear/spec. It's kinda fun. Haven't they said that a DPS is supposed to be able to just throw on a shield and tank 5 mans in Cataclysm?

I'm not sure anyone has said that since vanilla wow...

[Ingmar]

They have said that, yeah, for the leveling instances at least. I'm not sure they intend that to work for heroic+ though.

[Lantyssa]

I'm thinking that design philosophy went away with many other design goals.  Look at all the bitching it took for them to actually do something more than "Here's the 3.0 talents with three or four tweaks per class" and how that turned out.

[Sjofn]

I'm thinking that design philosophy went away with many other design goals.  Look at all the bitching it took for them to actually do something more than "Here's the 3.0 talents with three or four tweaks per class" and how that turned out.

You keep bagging on the talent trees and I just don't understand it. I do not understand what you want, and I do not understand why you think the trees not being done yet (which they never have been this early in their various betas, I might add) means anything at all.

[Merusk]

Because they're so shallow that no amount of tweaking is going to make them any more varied than picking "Protection Paladin" at char creation, paying 1k for "Ret Paladin" at level 40 and doing away with them entirely?

Nah, that couldn't be it.

[Sjofn]

You could argue they're essentially that way already, though. They've just taken out a lot of the "spec this or you're a moron" shit. I'm not saying it's perfect or anything, I just don't really get what people want. Talent trees were never super deep to start with.


EDIT: However, part of my confusion in this instance is "wtf do talent trees have to do with a different design goal entirelyl."

[Lt.Dan]

EDIT: However, part of my confusion in this instance is "wtf do talent trees have to do with a different design goal entirelyl."

I'm guess it has to do with all tanking talents sitting in one tree...good luck throwing on a shield and tanking when you can be crit by mobs, don't get the 20-30% stam buff, and have way longer tanking cooldowns.

[Sjofn]

That was always going to be the case, though, even before they decided to shrink the talent trees. And when you're leveling up as a tank, you get crit by mobs now, because you're almost never going to be in the magic no-crit zone in your shitty leveling gear, your stamina isn't that awesome (especially pre-TBC stamina plumping), etc. They never said they wanted any spec to be able to tank, like, raids. But the leveling shit, that they wanted anyone to do, and I am still not seeing much to indicate they've changed their minds one way or the other.

[AutomaticZen]

Because they're so shallow that no amount of tweaking is going to make them any more varied than picking "Protection Paladin" at char creation, paying 1k for "Ret Paladin" at level 40 and doing away with them entirely?

Nah, that couldn't be it.

That's pretty much how it is now.  There may be some extra flavor, but in practice, most don't actually use it.

As I said, my Protection spec using that funky beta tree really isn't different from the one I have now.  Just shallower.  In the end, there's still shit I have to take to move down the tree, and there's still a smattering of points I throw in the Ret tree for extra crap like Pursuit of Justice.

How many of us actually use a 41/30 spec all the time?

[Musashi]

Dual specs make this argument moot.  This has never been Diablo, where it's all about trying out creative builds.  The EJ nerds have always commanded talent decisions down to the last point from their nerd kingdom.  Nothing changes here.  The only difference is now, when they add the next expansion, there's more room to grow the trees without all the superfluous shit.

[Paelos]

Talent trees are pretty useless. Frankly, I've never even wanted them in the game at all, but dual speccing took away most of my old complaints. Now, with the exception of 1-2 choices, most of which will be min-maxxed to death, there is absolutely no freedom at all. They wanted to remove the straight damage or passive talents, but the reality is that the majority of gamers simply won't allow deviation when it comes to pve.

For example, there will always be a set of talents that will mathematically produce the most dps when combined with the right gear and set rotation. Even small increments will be tested to death and distilled into the perfect spec. Does that allow any more freedom than if they had just said, pick this spec and go? Sure, but that freedom is ability to choose something that's less efficient. You're given the freedom to screw up. Why not just cut out all the bullshit and standardize the talents? Should we hold to the idea of talents because it provides an illusion that we can be uniquely awesome?

[AutomaticZen]

Talent trees are pretty useless. Frankly, I've never even wanted them in the game at all, but dual speccing took away most of my old complaints. Now, with the exception of 1-2 choices, most of which will be min-maxxed to death, there is absolutely no freedom at all. They wanted to remove the straight damage or passive talents, but the reality is that the majority of gamers simply won't allow deviation when it comes to pve.

For example, there will always be a set of talents that will mathematically produce the most dps when combined with the right gear and set rotation. Even small increments will be tested to death and distilled into the perfect spec. Does that allow any more freedom than if they had just said, pick this spec and go? Sure, but that freedom is ability to choose something that's less efficient. You're given the freedom to screw up. Why not just cut out all the bullshit and standardize the talents? Should we hold to the idea of talents because it provides an illusion that we can be uniquely awesome?

On Maintankadin, within the first page of discussion about the talents, there were four different random specs just thrown out there.  Each and every one "this is what I would do"

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin#-pbE9oGPN,HOr-e3,12479
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin#-ptS-t0UD,,12479
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin#qEuXTb4nC,,12479
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin#-ptSvu0Vh,,12479

What more do people want?  How much more special snowflake can you be without sitting in a corner alone?  I just don't get it.

[Paelos]

They can preemptively toss out whatever they like. The reality is that when you get enough testing, people can field enough mathematical evidence to prove out one spec to rule them all, and that will be that. There's not enough variation in the type of job people are expected to do in a spec to warrant a lot of different choices.

EDIT: Tank speccing also slightly different than healing or dps because it's less of a numbers game, but not a lot.

[Rendakor]

Paelos, what I wanted them to do with Cataclysm was to remove most of the "+dps" talents or make them cost less, so that you have more free points available to spend on optional things: runspeed, reduced damage, pushback resistance, reduced cc duration, etc. Furthermore, I had hoped to be able to go get a 21p talent from a secondary tree, as these had traditionally been useful and interesting. Instead, we get gutted and simplified trees to the point where you should just pick Prot at level 10, then buy Ret at level 40, with the ability to switch at will for 50g. 

[Paelos]

I don't disagree with you at all. They've gutted what they put out and it currently sucks. I just don't believe they are remotely smart enough to give you the kind of options in the talents trees for 10 classes and have them split the playerbase. I don't think the demands of the game set up that way, nor do I believe the type of player that gravitates to the game will simply accept multiple widely varying spec choices as viable. They must have THE ONE, and they will test it harder than a monkey fucking a football.

[Lantyssa]

You could argue they're essentially that way already, though. They've just taken out a lot of the "spec this or you're a moron" shit. I'm not saying it's perfect or anything, I just don't really get what people want. Talent trees were never super deep to start with.


EDIT: However, part of my confusion in this instance is "wtf do talent trees have to do with a different design goal entirelyl."

I like the option of being a moron.  I'm not a high-end raider.  For the most part, despite my constant self-depreciation, I'm fairly competent and I can make what I have work just fine.  If you're not raiding, most of the content simply doesn't matter if your build is perfectly spec'd and I really enjoy being able to take some utility over being the Ultimate DPS or Tank.

As for the changing designs, they've gone from "it's advantageous to go down one spec because that's what gives you the specialization bonuses" to "here's your spec, don't bother thinking".  Further, they said the goal was to remove all the required stuff for fun talents.  This?  This just lets you choose whether your forced talent is early or late in its five level range.  Pretty much nothing is optional now.  They might as well drop talents and just make everything a skill.

As to the changing design goals:  In it's unveiling they also said they came up with it after people complained what they had revealed didn't do any of what they initially said.  Now they've removed a lot of the passive bonuses like they wanted, but babies and bathwater and all that.  They said they wanted you to just change weapons, or hit a stance and go, but none of this really allows that.  You will be your spec and nothing else now.

I'm kind of curious how the theory crafters are going to handle this.  Before they could try whacky ideas to see how it stacked up.  They're going to be pretty bored now.

[Ingmar]

The reality is that when you get enough testing, people can field enough mathematical evidence to prove out one spec to rule them all, and that will be that.

And this will be true no matter how few or how many possible spec variations they throw at us.

[caladein]

For damage dealers, there will always be one spec to rule them all for any given set of variables.  To expect otherwise is madness.

That said, a lot of classes now have easy access to utility talents.  Unholy probably has enough free points to pick up AMZ; all Shamans can easily pick up Run Speed/Instant Ghost Wolf; Rogues have easy access to Run Speed/Healing Received; and most importantly a lot of the "you must get this or fail" talents like Ruin are now just baked into the classes/trees.

[Ingmar]

Yep, my shaman only gains utility under the new system. And elemental was already a 'one true spec' for pve tree.

The only one of my level 80 characters (prot warrior, balance druid, arcane mage, ret paladin, elemental/resto shaman) who I think the changes are going to drive me away from is my arcane mage, and even that I'm not sure about because it isn't entirely clear yet how arcane will function at all. Who knows, maybe the paladin will suck, but the trees we have for them aren't the right trees yet so who knows.

[Wolf]

They are still struggling with spriests. Aside from the actual number of points is still the same, 10pts disc and 31shadow with still not a single damned reason to ever go into holy. I'm more interested in the new version of mindspike and how that will play out but talent wise ain't shit really different.

I will note that both disc and holy get meditation for mana regen but shadow gets nadda, just mindflay and reduced pushback on spells.

Why would you need more than 8 points in disc? And why would you want to go into holy, holy doesn't go into shadow, shadow doesn't go into holy, it's the way it is. I'm pretty happy with the trees as they are, I can see two ways in which to get viable builds, both of which require dual-spec, which in itself is awesome. I'll get a use out of that 1000g I spent some time ago :D

In any case, disc is needed for imp. inner fire, it's obvious why. So the choice is either 3/3 meditation if we run into mana problems or 3/3 twin disciplines for dups. Considering that you need those 8pts, shadow gets pretty interesting further down, because you're short one point. You could either get everything and not get dispersion, or you can skip a point in apparition or empowered orbs, to get dispersion. Hence the dual-spec - you get two builds - one for movement fights and one for stand and nuke.

Like I said earlier though, no point in discussing talents so early. We're more than fine, especially with the changes to dots and MF. I just hope they change the aura to 5% haste, instead of 5% crit, like GC said they might.

[Merusk]

It's, once again, about the illusion of choice.  IT doesn't matter what reality, elitist jerks, or dedicated raiders do.  Their lifestyle has always been the one of "One True Spec."  Since most here fall into that category, your own playstyle is the one being catered to.  I understand Lant's frustration because I have some alts I dick around with just for goofy solo shit.  I liked those 'useless' talents because they weren't useless if you were just fucking around.   

The rogue in particular is the one that feels gutted.  There were SO MANY odd but viable specs there but now?  "You Are Subtlety or go home."    Having things mandated like this after 5 years kills a good portion of the fun.  Had it started that way, great.  Instead they're removing choice, which has always proven to be a boneheaded move.

Let's not forget what's driving this is GC's previously stated intent of making things simpler for the encounter designers.  Now they don't have to think at all.  You are an Unholy DK, this is what you can do and nothing else.  There's no speccing into frost, unholy and blood.. particularly since once you start down a tree you're locked-in until you hit 31 points.  I suspect the same to prove true of your 10 point sub-spec. 

[Ironwood]

particularly since once you start down a tree you're locked-in until you hit 31 points.

When the fuck did THAT happen ??

 

[Merusk]

particularly since once you start down a tree you're locked-in until you hit 31 points.

When the fuck did THAT happen ??

 

When they first announced they were scaling them back to 31 points.
http://www.wow.com/2010/07/08/wow-rookie-whats-new-for-leveling-players-in-cataclysm/

It's mentioned specifically in the last section of Zarhym's post, "To Recap"


Also:

    Q u o t e:
    2. i know you said that when you spend your first point you would be locked into that tree until your at least spend 31 points, but would it be possible to allow you to become a hybrid spec at level cap even if its less attractive than a 31 point spec?



Whenever a popular hybrid spec comes up, it's usually because of some sneaky build that is broken for PvP by snaking down to pick up key talents in two trees. It's not because the player really wants to play as say two specs -- they are just cherry picking the talents. Since those builds almost always feel broken (as in breaking the rules) we don't want to design around them.

Once again, GC showing he doesn't get it.  "We don't like it, so it's broken.  I'm also going to imply you're a cheater because you didn't go down one tree, even though the option not to has always been there.  Cheater!"

[Ironwood]

Dear God.


EDIT :  Patched up the Beta and dived right in again.  This blows.  It's utterly horrible.  Thank you and Goodnight.

[Paelos]

Dear God.


EDIT :  Patched up the Beta and dived right in again.  This blows.  It's utterly horrible.  Thank you and Goodnight.

You've been saying that for a good while though. I couldn't imagine talents were going to save the day after your grilling of the new starter zones.

[Ironwood]

Nah.  The new starter zones and new races just turned me off that aspect of it (starting again.)

This is turning me off playing my current characters.

Tried the Lock, Rogue and Warrior now.  It's...really kind of lame...

[Paelos]

I'm really wondering at this point if there is going to be anything at all to do for people who want to play their main in the beginning? The entire focus seems to be rerolling at this point, which I always found kind of odd. I hear rumors of high level zones, but I don't think they have tested anything.

[Malakili]

I'm really wondering at this point if there is going to be anything at all to do for people who want to play their main in the beginning? The entire focus seems to be rerolling at this point, which I always found kind of odd. I hear rumors of high level zones, but I don't think they have tested anything.

Looks like there is going to be the standard leveling content + dungeons + a few raids. I don't know how much testing there is going to be, but I don't get the impression Blizzard is saying "ya'll should just reroll."  I mean, plenty of people will, just on the principle of goblins are awesome, but I think for the people that just want to level up their current characters and get to the old raiding game again, they'll be able to do that.

[Paelos]

I'd love to believe that's the case as well, but with all the resources and testing going into all these redone new zones and starter zones in the old world, I'm having my doubts that they will get enough quality time on anything from the 80-85 level ready for release. That's not to say they won't focus on it for the first big patch 4 months later, but that's a long time to wait if you're not doing the goblin dance.

[Ironwood]

I agree.  Everything points to reroll. 

While the new stuff could be great, they're clearly wanting you to reroll given how much the landscape has changed and how much change they've put in to 'The Levelling Experience'.

Sod that.  New game time, methinks.  Between this and the RealID shite, I'll just let the sub lapse.

[Paelos]

Even "The leveling experience" with a bunch of new shit wouldn't be totally terrible as a distraction, but won't we still have to slog through the same old shit in the outlands and WOTLK? That's practically the longest damn part, and it ain't new.

[Lakov_Sanite]

outlands takes a week tops and wotlk is fast enough not to mention that they are going to give it an exp boost like they did with bc. it's not the roadblock people seem to think it is.

[AutomaticZen]

So at least the Paladin tree are completely wrong:

1. Are Sanctified Ret, Swift Ret, Sanctuary, and Imp Dev Aura going to remain 3-pt talents? They feel too expensive this way. Maybe they can be rolled into individual talents, or changed to cost 2-pts each.

One of Sanctified and Swift is 2 points and the other is 1 point. I can't remember which without looking. Imp Dev Aura is dead.

2. The whole reactive Judgement thing feels weird to me. If a Ret is taking a lot of damage in PvP, he no longer has to worry about mana? I'm all for new mechanics and making E4E a strong talent, but I'm not sure I like this. On the same note, how about Purifying Power -- if a Holy Paladin dispels his teammate, will it break CC on the enemy who applied the debuff?

Reactive Judgements is also dead.

I'm going to regret saying this, but the paladin trees are the most changed in the game. There are only a few of the current beta talents that survived the, um, cleansing.

[Paelos]

outlands takes a week tops

That's one shitty week.