Cataclysm

[AutomaticZen]

Why don't they just automate the entire talent tree thing? Like, you pick which type of character you want to play (tank, healer, dps, whatever) and they just automatically fill out the talent tree for you, as they currently do with attributes such as strength, agility, etc. It's not like you'll have any real "choices" to make after the talent tree revamps anyway, so might as well just automate it. -_-

In practice, as a Prot Paladin, I'm pretty much the same across a smaller spread.  I ended up with a 0/31/10 build, which wasn't much different from what I had before.  So I have no issues with the trees whatsoever.  And I get Improve Crusader Strike for...something.  I dunno.  Never touched it before.

My Enhancement Shaman will be using a weird 5/36/0 build so far, but I like getting Dual Wield and Dual Wield Specialization immediately.

So...net gain for me I guess.

[Wolf]

Is it really worth discussing talents right now? They'll be doing a lot of changes in the next couple of months before they get anywhere close to finished.

[Paelos]

Prot warrior tree looks mostly the same with a few odd changes I have no idea about -

Blood and Thunder: 100% chance for Rend to be applied to every target of a thunderclap, if Rend is on one target - This sounds neat because I could see it being very useful for 4-5 man groups, which are a problem for warrior tanks. Having thunderclap reapply rend to everything would help keep a rolling dot on everything, possibly making it stickier. How it plays out would require some actual testing to see if the threat generation mattered enough.

Sweep and Clear: Your damaging abilities generate 3 rage for each target they hit beyond the first up to 9 rage - the wording sucks here, but if I'm reading the thought correctly, thunderclapping groups of 4+ would yield 9 rage back to the warrior. Glyphed cleaves would yield 6 rage. This brings up a couple of questions about the worthwhile factor. If I'm getting nailed by 4 things, am I really hurting for rage? Also, this is useless on bosses, so wouldn't I be better spent putting the 3 points elsewhere?

For the shitty stuff, they left in Gag Order (silencing shield bash), and Safeguard (Intervene damage reduction), both of which are almost totally useless in pve. Bosses completely ignore the silencing effect, and intervene is mostly used as a movement effect rather than saving someone's ass. I get the feeling they are total PvP abilites and nothing more. I'd like to get away from the pvp stuff in the prot tree, thanks. We have dual specs now, we don't need it.

[March]

Is it really worth discussing talents right now? They'll be doing a lot of changes in the next couple of months before they get anywhere close to finished.

Fair enough, no sense commenting on specific talents at this stage... but it seems to me that reducing the points spent, increasing the required spending in "your" tree to 31 minimum means that I felt my last 10 points were completely _wasted_ on low (high?) tier soaker talents that were definitely not "Concentrated Awesome"

And like others have noted, my response to every talent except 1 or 2 odd (or obviously PvP) ones was: "Yep, need that... Yep, that one too... and that... ok 31. Done."

I also felt like the 5 points per tier no longer worked... reducing the points per tier to 3 would probably go a long way towards making this model get closer to their stated aim.

[Lakov_Sanite]

They are still struggling with spriests. Aside from the actual number of points is still the same, 10pts disc and 31shadow with still not a single damned reason to ever go into holy. I'm more interested in the new version of mindspike and how that will play out but talent wise ain't shit really different.

I will note that both disc and holy get meditation for mana regen but shadow gets nadda, just mindflay and reduced pushback on spells.

[Ingmar]

Sweep and Clear: Your damaging abilities generate 3 rage for each target they hit beyond the first up to 9 rage - the wording sucks here, but if I'm reading the thought correctly, thunderclapping groups of 4+ would yield 9 rage back to the warrior. Glyphed cleaves would yield 6 rage. This brings up a couple of questions about the worthwhile factor. If I'm getting nailed by 4 things, am I really hurting for rage? Also, this is useless on bosses, so wouldn't I be better spent putting the 3 points elsewhere?

For the shitty stuff, they left in Gag Order (silencing shield bash), and Safeguard (Intervene damage reduction), both of which are almost totally useless in pve. Bosses completely ignore the silencing effect, and intervene is mostly used as a movement effect rather than saving someone's ass. I get the feeling they are total PvP abilites and nothing more. I'd like to get away from the pvp stuff in the prot tree, thanks. We have dual specs now, we don't need it.

Gag order is *far* from useless in PVE, are you crazy? Having a ranged silence to make casters come up to use is hugely useful, and you can use the silence on shield bash similarly with the zipping around that charge/intercept/intervene in combat lets you do. I'll agree that safeguard is useless more or less in regular PVE (although I think people doing hardmodes have found it occasionally handy as an external cooldown for whoever is tanking some big burst thing.) "It doesn't work on bosses" is not a reason to complain about it, there are plenty of nasty casters in trash packs and the like that it helps handle extremely well, especially on the pull with heroic throw.

As far as rage generation goes, keep in mind we're losing all of our 'costs X less rage' talents and they're trying normalization again.

Also: PVP protection is a shitload of fun to play, you can have my pvp prot talents when you pry them from my cold dead fingers. Unfortunately it looks like Blizzard already pried out improved disarm and improved spell reflect, both of which hurt a lot.

[Paelos]

If we're talking about speccing for trash, I'd like them to focus more on AE stuff. Gag order shouldn't be a spec issue. It should be a part of shield bash as normal. I'd like to see them do something else creative with that area.

[Lantyssa]

I'm completely underwhelmed.  Still curious about the world changes, but unless they make some amazing changes to these preliminary talents changes (plus other areas), I think I'm done with WoW as my primary game.

If it weren't for my once a week ground with RL friends I never get to see anymore, I think it'd be completely over when my sub runs out from canceling because of RealID.  It may still be.  Meh.

[Ingmar]

Personally I prefer a spec option where I *can't* spend every point on abilities that matter in a boss fight. It makes the 90% of the time when you're not fighting a boss much more interesting. I also think they've overdone the AE stuff at this point. I'd rather they spread CC abilities out more and we go back to using them a little more, while at the same time cutting down the total number of trash pulls a bit. Fewer more interesting fights, that take about the same amount of time. Not like, 'you must CC 3 mobs out of 4 on this pull or you will die' but more along the lines of those ghost waves in Halls of Reflection. There's room for more variety in the trash pulls than we tend to get currently.

[Musashi]

Rend has always had a shitload of threat.  It's always been intended as a tanking tool.  See Furor's rant about want for a tank DoT in EQ circa 2000ish.  It's floating around on the internet somewhere.  Basically it was just to keep up with heal aggro when you were single targeting, and of course the odd 'accidental' aoe from reckless dpsers.  I used it in vanilla all the time in 5 mans.  Also Garr adds.  It's just people never talk about using it because it's such a pain in the ass.  

The change makes it awesome.  In fact it addresses one of the biggest problems with warrior tanks: shitty aoe tanking.  Instead of rending everything costing 10 cooldowns, it's down to one.  Basically free threat, even if the threat coefficient isn't the same now as it was in vanilla.

[Nissl]

Just had a look at the new prot warrior tree, which is the only build I've played somewhat recently... basically it looks like you MUST take everything but 4 abilities.  Safeguard is crap for PVE so toss it, then you decide between taking one of Sweep and Clear, Blood and Thunder, and Damage Shield depending on whether you want a little AoE rage or a little AoE dps boost (although with Blood and Thunder... rend was not in my leveling warrior's rotation at ALL).  Maybe put a few additional points into one of those instead of a few points into arms.

I guess that does meet their objective of "put the last 5-10 points wherever you want" but it feels like idiot-proofing.  

Gag Order is in most of the cookie-cutter PVE instance tanking builds, by the way, and I found it useful as I was leveling through dungeon finder. Idiot DPS often like to pull, or body pull by mistake... either way, they don't respect multi-caster packs and that's one of the few things that is at all risky.

[Ingmar]

I haven't had trouble AE tanking since TBC. I'm not sure where this meme about 'omg warriors suck at AE threat' came from but I really do not have any problems and haven't for a long, long time. Yes, there are the occasional things like Onyxia whelps we don't handle all that well. That stuff is pretty rare though, and it really isn't the end of the world, plus it tends to be balanced out by things like the advantage our fear break gives us on tanking Onyxia herself, etc.

[Musashi]

Clearly you've never been a Huntard trying to pop an explosive trap and volley over the top of a warrior trying to aoe tank.  The problem isn't that they can't do it.  The problem is that everyone else does it way better.  Every other class can just faceroll and hold aggro over my 20K+ dps.  Most warriors I've met, can't do it.

[Paelos]

Agreed, it's not a function of warriors being unable, it's simply that the warrior has be on point to do it well without losing out a ton of dps by holding back your damagers. Any pally can run in there, fart on the ground, and kick your ass. They needed to make it more integral to the warrior abilities you already use, and thunderclap is the best way to do that. They have continued to expand thunderclap in that regard in major patches.

[Ingmar]

All this assumes that they're *not* going to make AE tanking for the other classes require more brain cells, of course, which I think is a stated goal.

Even if they don't, however, I'd rather they not turn warriors into a similar facerolling experience for AE tanking. I like that I have to use my abilities correctly to do the job.

[caladein]

Yeah, they're taking a few things away from Disc that I'll miss: -Cast Time on Mass Dispel and Desperate Prayer being the main two.

That said, the tree's don't play out to differently from how they do now.  Go to the bottom of Disc and then get Inspiration.

As for the Mastery abilities, they're pretty much brilliant all around.  The one lame one that sticks out to me is Holy Priests getting Desperate Prayer, but I imagine it'll get reworked in the mean time.

Desperate Prayer is apparently being changed.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25968989947&pageNo=1&sid=1#13

That's quite good actually.  I was wracking my brain trying to think of what they could give Holy Priests since they're keeping all the group stuff (Barrier, Beacon of Light, CoH/WG) near the bottom, and an early version of Binding Heal is not bad at all.

[Musashi]

All this assumes that they're *not* going to make AE tanking for the other classes require more brain cells, of course, which I think is a stated goal.

Even if they don't, however, I'd rather they not turn warriors into a similar facerolling experience for AE tanking. I like that I have to use my abilities correctly to do the job.

Oh, they can make it harder for other classes and easier for warriors and meet in the middle somewhere.  The other tanking classes barely even have to change their rotation, and they just automatically pick up aoe aggro.  And the abilities the other classes require to do it are abilities they actually use in other situations.  Not just some relic from an older time, whose only explanation is buried in the 'shaw on FoH.  It's retarded, and needs to change.

[Ingmar]

All this assumes that they're *not* going to make AE tanking for the other classes require more brain cells, of course, which I think is a stated goal.

Even if they don't, however, I'd rather they not turn warriors into a similar facerolling experience for AE tanking. I like that I have to use my abilities correctly to do the job.

Oh, they can make it harder for other classes and easier for warriors and meet in the middle somewhere.  The other tanking classes barely even have to change their rotation, and they just automatically pick up aoe aggro.  And the abilities the other classes require to do it are abilities they actually use in other situations.  Not just some relic from an older time, whose only explanation is buried in the 'shaw on FoH.  It's retarded, and needs to change.

I think you may just be really out of date on warrior mechanics. It really isn't that hard to AE tank, the only time that it gets a little squirrely is in situations where adds trickle in one by one (whelps) or when dpsers are being stupid. Misdirect and tricks of the trade trivialize it even more. We also haven't used rend when tanking in years, any button we can push basically outperforms it at this point.

How it goes:

- put vigilance on your highest AE dpser
- thunderclap the pack to group them up then shockwave them all
- cleave instead of HS, prioritize revenge and thunderclap, shockwave on cooldown

Optional:

- bitch out the moonkin who starts with hurricane before the mobs are even up to you over voice chat

Ta-da, you can now AE tank just fine.

[AutomaticZen]

Yeah, trees are super broken.

After some review... for Prot Pallies:  Hammer of the Righteous...no cooldown.  Talented Crusader Strike, no cooldown.  Consecration, now 15 seconds base, with talents up to 45 seconds, no cooldown.  According to some on Maintankadin, laying a new Conc down makes the other disappear.

And Ardent Defender is now a clicky (fine) with the same effects (huh?).

So, I assume big changes are coming.

[Paelos]

All this assumes that they're *not* going to make AE tanking for the other classes require more brain cells, of course, which I think is a stated goal.

Even if they don't, however, I'd rather they not turn warriors into a similar facerolling experience for AE tanking. I like that I have to use my abilities correctly to do the job.

Being distinguishable is a good thing. But we're talking about trash mobs. First of all, I believe there should be a glyph to lower the cooldown of shockwave in half, but you lose the stunning effect. 20s is laughable in an AE situation for most dungeons. You can get off 3 Thunderclaps before it even comes back, and most of the shit is already dead. That, and this rend reapply would basically solve the majority of the good warrior's issues with being annoyed by AE tanking, and still leave the shitty ones plenty of room to fail.

[Ingmar]

All this assumes that they're *not* going to make AE tanking for the other classes require more brain cells, of course, which I think is a stated goal.

Even if they don't, however, I'd rather they not turn warriors into a similar facerolling experience for AE tanking. I like that I have to use my abilities correctly to do the job.

Being distinguishable is a good thing. But we're talking about trash mobs. First of all, I believe there should be a glyph to lower the cooldown of shockwave in half, but you lose the stunning effect. 20s is laughable in an AE situation for most dungeons. You can get off 3 Thunderclaps before it even comes back, and most of the shit is already dead. That, and this rend reapply would basically solve the majority of the good warrior's issues with being annoyed by AE tanking, and still leave the shitty ones plenty of room to fail.

I'd never use that glyph. The stun is fantastic for stopping the mobs that might try to split off early due to an overeager dpser from actually getting anywhere. Locking everything down in one spot and stopping incoming damage for a few seconds helps in a lot of small ways, including adding a few seconds before your healers have to toss that first heal that might pull a straggler mob that wasn't in the first thunderclap onto them instead of you.

[Fordel]

The Shockwave stun is actually our 'official' "YOU MAY NOW AE" signal for the most part.




AutomaticZen: Your assumptions are correct! http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25968569991&pageNo=1&sid=1#9

[Paelos]

The fact that some would use the glyph and others wouldn't to me makes it the perfect type of glyph. It offers a real trade-off in the stun v. usability department. Some may prefer the lockdown of larger groups and burn approach because they like 5 man style. Some may prefer the decreased cooldown because they like the ability to produce higher threat on a smaller amount of bigger mobs in a shorter period.

[Ingmar]

I actually have the first hallway in ICC in mind when I'm thinking about all this.

[Paelos]

I actually have the first hallway in ICC in mind when I'm thinking about all this.

I'm hoping they never design anything like that ever again. It's the most trash in the instance and it's entirely front end loaded. If I'm doing more than four pulls to get to a boss, I think it's an uninspired waste of time. It felt like an outlier in an otherwise well-paced instance. Although you could make the argument that the Putricide stuff can get a little silly.

[Sjofn]

All this assumes that they're *not* going to make AE tanking for the other classes require more brain cells, of course, which I think is a stated goal.

Even if they don't, however, I'd rather they not turn warriors into a similar facerolling experience for AE tanking. I like that I have to use my abilities correctly to do the job.

Oh, they can make it harder for other classes and easier for warriors and meet in the middle somewhere.  The other tanking classes barely even have to change their rotation, and they just automatically pick up aoe aggro.  And the abilities the other classes require to do it are abilities they actually use in other situations.  Not just some relic from an older time, whose only explanation is buried in the 'shaw on FoH.  It's retarded, and needs to change.

Blood DK tanks do not exactly have a magical fun time AE tanking. Paladins and druids, fine whatever, but my DK sometimes has issues and I don't even have a fucking AE taunt.

[Rendakor]

D&D, IT, PT, Pest, Blood Tap, BB. Works best with 2p t10, but even without I've never had issues AE tanking on a DK. Pally is easier, but DK > druid and warrior.

[Paelos]

We can use our own varying levels of experience all we want, but it really isn't a debatable point that the warrior is the least-favored/easiest/whatever in terms of AE tanking.

[Musashi]

I actually have the first hallway in ICC in mind when I'm thinking about all this.

And there are few warriors who can keep mobs off people in that hallway.  The rotation you describe - she's not enough for my dudes, captain.  Not with tricks.  Not with misdirect.  Not with feign death after that.  It's not remotely trivial.  You would have to tab target.  Most people don't do that.  Warriors just don't have the ability to generate the same kind of threat in as few cool-downs without doing so.  And even if you are tabbing, it's very easy to overlook one or two - or just plain not do it fast enough.  Then what?  Also, I wasn't even typically the highest dps on those AoE pulls.  There's usually at least a mage and a ret pally ahead of me.

I know you don't use rend now.  I also know that the mechanics of all the other classes are brainless compared with what warriors have to do.  The ability to apply rend to multiple targets with one cool-down substantially alleviates that.  Assuming of course they don't fuck up the threat coefficient.

Blood DK tanks do not exactly have a magical fun time AE tanking. Paladins and druids, fine whatever, but my DK sometimes has issues and I don't even have a fucking AE taunt.

Not really talking about the act of getting aggro.  More-so the act of keeping it once you have it.  I think they've come a long way in giving warriors a good way to get aggro at the beginning of an aoe pull.  And I don't have any objection to giving a DK an aoe taunt.  (Although, frankly the ability to deathgrip and re-taunt single runners without even moving kind of makes up for that.)  But the simple fact is that it's easier for DK's to keep their aoe up.

e:  I said rage coefficient, but meant threat.

[Sjofn]

D&D, IT, PT, Pest, Blood Tap, BB. Works best with 2p t10, but even without I've never had issues AE tanking on a DK. Pally is easier, but DK > druid and warrior.

I was assuming a too-early volley/explosive trap, which is the only time I ever see warriors lose AE aggro as well. I know the stupid rotations, for heaven's sake.

[Ingmar]

If you're pulling aggro back after a feign, someone in your raid, I don't know who exactly, is doing something really really wrong.

[Rendakor]

Both my mage and my boomkin pull threat off warriors on large packs.

[Simond]

D&D, IT, PT, Pest, Blood Tap, BB. Works best with 2p t10, but even without I've never had issues AE tanking on a DK. Pally is easier, but DK > druid and warrior.

Yeah, um, I'm guessing you haven't seen the pestilence & wandering plague changes in Cataclysm?

[Musashi]

If you're pulling aggro back after a feign, someone in your raid, I don't know who exactly, is doing something really really wrong.

It's easier than it sounds.

[Rendakor]

I'm talking about current rotations, not theoretical Cataclysm ones.