2009 NFL

[Trippy]

I can understand sticking with Collins through the first few losses as he was the QB last season when they won the division but when you are in the same division as the Colts and you are now 0 - 4 and Colts are 4 - 0 you have to be thinking about conceding the division and thinking about how to get a Wild Card spot. 10 - 6 is one of those borderline records that may or may not get you to the playoffs (wouldn't have last year, might have the year before that depending on tie breakers). Switching when you are 0 - 6 means you would have to go 10 - 0 the rest of the way, which is highly unlikely, just to have a shot at the playoffs. If you switched at 0 - 4 then going 10 - 2 or 11 - 1 seems a more achievable task.

[Paelos]

Teams that go 0-3 don't make the playoffs. Take a look and see that only 3 teams have done that since 1990, the worst of which was 0-4 in 1992 with the Chargers. 0-6? Everyone knows you're proper fucked at that point. You might as well make the switch and see what can happen for the fans.

[Hoax]

I'm with the monkey, after 0-4 it doesn't even matter anymore.

[Trippy]

Then Fisher should've switched QBs when they were 0 - 3 or even 0 - 2.

[Paelos]

Then Fisher should've switched QBs when they were 0 - 3 or even 0 - 2.

Well, I have an easy answer for why they didn't do that either. The first loss was to the Steelers by 3 in OT. The second loss the Titans lost 34-31, and Collins threw for 64% and 2 TDs. After those two games, you'd not going to make a move away from your QB. Those are tough losses that you maybe believe you can rebound from. The third loss to the Jets, Collins was horrific, but they still only lost by a TD. You might be able to make a case for pulling him then, but you could also (not knowing the future) make a case that he could rebound. Overall, they had lost 3 games by a combined 13 points.

Now, at the game in Jacksonville, they got pounded. It was time to pull him at that point, but they had the Colts and Pats coming up. At this point as a coach, you know your team is pretty much out of any chance at the playoffs, even if you won't admit it. Even with a good QB, I think they were pretty much writing those games off as losses while they prepared to make the change. They certainly weren't going to throw Young in there, have him look like hell against the best offenses in the AFC, and then have the fans question him as a QB yet again.

So, they make the move after the bye week, taking advantage of the extra prep time, and they get a solid win. Momentum picks up and the team feels good about itself again. Expect that to last until they play Indy again.

[01101010]

I gotta give it up to Favre... I am 36 and no way can I even run around the block without having a Vitamin B injection.

And wtf? The best game this week was actually involving my Browns that made the team look like a team. But in true Cleveland form, still lost - with 0 seconds left too. At least Quinn looked good.. 300+ and 4 tds will up his trade value.

[Brogarn]

I gotta give it up to Favre... I am 36 and no way can I even run around the block without having a Vitamin B injection.

And wtf? The best game this week was actually involving my Browns that made the team look like a team. But in true Cleveland form, still lost - with 0 seconds left too. At least Quinn looked good.. 300+ and 4 tds will up his trade value.

Ya... what the fuck happened there? Did both teams just not play their defenses? I was blown away by the score of that game.

[Sky]

We were joking that the Browns game was the game to watch yesterday.

[Rasix]

I'm developing a radar for Broncos season collapses that rivals my Hyu-dar.

[HaemishM]

I'm amazed at Young and the Titans turn-around.  What bothers me though is the 86-year old owner made Jeff Fisher put Young in and they've won, what 4 straight?  I've always been a Fisher fan but now I'm really doubtful.  

I can see where both sides are coming from. Vince had his shot with the Titans in 06-07 and had a 21-30 TD/INT ratio with 50 sacks in two seasons. Nothing about those numbers suggest he's an NFL caliber QB. We'll see if he can hold up in the long haul.

Problem with Young is that you can't look at his numbers, because they suck... and yet he WINS. Wins count a lot more than stats.

EDIT: Also, man does Mark Sanchez just suck or what? A lot of those throws he made against New England were just horribly off-target. He may have taken too many hits recently, as he seems really quick to toss the ball anywhere when there's a rush on him.

ROOFLES - Steelers, Redskins for losing two very winnable games. And I feel real sorry for anyone that had to watch that Skins/Cowboys game. That must have been painful.

[Tannhauser]

I really really enjoy watching Young run the Option with the NFL leading rusher!
Glad to see the Lions win a game, Stafford gained some man-cred going back in.
Shocked at the Steelers loss.

[Paelos]

I find it hilarious the Saints are undefeated this year. The SAINTS!!!

Are they this year's Cardinals? Maybe.

[Ingmar]

The Saints are a much, much better team than last year's Cardinals.

[SnakeCharmer]

Just got invited to the Saints v Patriots game Monday night.  Box suite seats, free booze and food, private bathroom, whole 9 yards.

Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulez!!

Though I kinda wish we were sitting in the regular seating.  It just won't be the same not sitting next to some fat ass liquored up cajun that smells of body odor, bourbon, and crab boil.

[Nebu]

Just got invited to the Saints v Patriots game Monday night.  Box suite seats, free booze and food, private bathroom, whole 9 yards.

That's awesome!  Please stay in the box.  You'll be one of the few people in those luxury suites that is actually there to enjoy the game.  

[BoatApe]

Unless you're locked away in one of the "luxury suites" you should be able to enjoy all the sights, sounds and smells of the 'Dome.

The boxes are are wide open and have the quickest access to the best bars in the Superdome.

(Why oh why did I have to pick THIS season to spend a year away from New Orleans?!...)

[naum]

Thoughts on Vince Young?

Seems it riles people up — many bashers, think he's destined to fail, as ALL "athletic" quarterbacks in the NFL (according to Steve Young, ESPN radio hosts, "common" wisdom, etc.…).

Supporters say he wins games, that all that matters.

I take the middle ground here — no matter how athletic, a excelling QB needs to be able to (a) throw the ball and have a great arm, pinpoint accuracy and (b) needs to be able to see/scan the field and receiver options quickly (something very hard to gauge, especially at NFL level where defenses keep getting faster and reaction time margins smaller)… …OTOH, being physical/athletic may not be a just a "great bonus" as Steve Young proclaimed — the ability to dodge/elude tackles (due to quickness or just size like Rothleisberger) and make plays out of the pocket can be just a difference maker as throwing from the pocket.

[Nebu]

Thoughts on Vince Young?

Seems it riles people up — many bashers, think he's destined to fail, as ALL "athletic" quarterbacks in the NFL (according to Steve Young, ESPN radio hosts, "common" wisdom, etc.…).

Supporters say he wins games, that all that matters.

See Michael Vick.  He'll be good in the short term, but will lack the longevity of a pocket passer like Peyton Manning.  Vick just doesn't seem to have the field awareness or patience to pick apart a defense like a franchise QB.  I see Young as having a solid career, but doubt he'll be of any value once age slows him down and he's forced to play from a 5 step drop. 

[Cyrrex]

For however long he can run an option play, he'll be a valuable QB.  I can't see anything more terrifying to a defense on a third and short than having to decide which two-headed monster to attack (Young or Johnson).

For reasons I can't put my finger on, I really want to see that guy succeed.  I hope he learns to be a good pocket passer. 

[01101010]

For however long he can run an option play, he'll be a valuable QB.  I can't see anything more terrifying to a defense on a third and short than having to decide which two-headed monster to attack (Young or Johnson).

For reasons I can't put my finger on, I really want to see that guy succeed.  I hope he learns to be a good pocket passer. 

Flashbacks of the same conversations about McNabb.

[Rasix]

Uhh, McNabb has always been a pocket passer.

[WayAbvPar]

If by passer you mean someone who throws 1 hoppers to his receivers, then yes.

[Rasix]

That was implied.

It is way too early to make any judgments about how good or bad Young is going to be.  Sure, he has a nice record but have of his current 8 game regular season streak was before he got injured and was pondering how his skull would look with a giant hole in it.

His stat line looks like what Vick produced.  Sub 200 yards passing, 50-100 yards rushing, maybe a TD or two. That works great when you've got the best RB in the league (Atlanta always had good rushing attacks under Vick).  I'm not sure you're going to get consistent winning seasons and playoff wins out of his production unless he continues to improve. Vick didn't, maybe Young will.

[naum]

His stat line looks like what Vick produced.  Sub 200 yards passing, 50-100 yards rushing, maybe a TD or two. That works great when you've got the best RB in the league (Atlanta always had good rushing attacks under Vick).  I'm not sure you're going to get consistent winning seasons and playoff wins out of his production unless he continues to improve. Vick didn't, maybe Young will.

Yeah, problem is, come playoff time, games get tight, and you need QB to be able to march down the field with pinpoint accuracy in a short amount of clock time. Steelers w/Kordell Stewart compiled lots of regular season wins and took Pittsburgh to 2 championship games. And in both games, failed to deliver a last minute drive to tie/win game (though 2001 game against Patriots should be laid at special teams failure, more than anything else).

Though, OTOH, Titans looked good in 2 minute drill @ Texans Monday night, chewing up yardage in giant chunks by running and not throwing…

[SnakeCharmer]

Vince Young, from all indications, is a head case.  And to play QB in the NFL and be successful, you've got to be rock solid in terms of dealing with the pressure of the position and be the smartest player on the field.  He hasn't shown that, at all.  The Peyton Mannings, the Tom Brady's, and the Ben Rothlesberger's of the NFL aren't elite QB's because they're spectacular athletes.  They're elite QB's because they're exceptionally smart (brilliant, even) and are seemingly immune to pressure.  I don't think anyone would make the mistake of calling them fantastic athletes, their arm strength and accuracy aside.  You've got to know every position on the field at every given moment in every given scenario vs what the defense is showing before the snap, then make a split second decision after the snap as to what the defense is actually doing: are they showing man, but actually playing a zone, are they showing zone, but actually playing man, where is the blitz coming from, are they showing blitz, did they back off, where are the corners?  are they on the inside or outside shouder of the receiver, are they in bump and run, are the safeties rolling over in their coverage.   You've got to recognize all that, decide where you're going to throw it, and THEN know what the receiver on your read is going to do on THAT particular situation:  is the corner on man, or zone, or jamming at the line, so the reciever may adjust their route to a fly, 10 7 yard curl or 5 or 10 yard streak then cut in OR out.  All that info has to be processed in, what, half a second, with 2 to 3 more seconds (or less) to make the throw?

My brain would explode.

The main problem with 'athletic' qb's is that they take too many hits.  QB's with wheels have spent their entire careers, from tiny mite to colllege to pros being in a 'read one receiver, if open then throw it, if covered then run it' mentality.  And that's ingrained into them for years.  Then when they get to the pros (if they make it to the pros), it's still somewhat second nature and hard to shake off.  Those kinds of QB's are made QB's because they're the best athlete on the field.  They occasionally make great throws, but more often than not their success is predicated on their ability to flat out run/juke everyone else.

SYoung is a bit of an abheration in terms of success as a QB who was a pass run option QB in the West Coast offense; he was surrounded by Hall of Fame talent at every skill position.  He also didnt become a starter until something like 8 or 9 seasons in.  He had a handful of good/great years as a starter, then his skill rapidly diminished as a result of injuries, most notably concussions.

I've often wondered if the spread option offense would work in the NFL if you approached the QB position like it's done in college in terms of longevity:  assume you're going to have a QB for 2 years, 4 years max.  That's because the wear and tear from the QB taking hits pretty much every offensive play would put their average lifespan on par with that of a running back or less.  Once that QB is worn out, cut them, draft a new Michael Vick or whatever that QB that just graduated from West Virginia last year's name is.  White, or something or other.

The 'problem' with the NFL is the sheer speed of the defenses.

[naum]

SYoung is a bit of an abheration in terms of success as a QB who was a pass run option QB in the West Coast offense; he was surrounded by Hall of Fame talent at every skill position.  He also didnt become a starter until something like 8 or 9 seasons in.  He had a handful of good/great years as a starter, then his skill rapidly diminished as a result of injuries, most notably concussions.

Steve Young started in USFL, started couple seasons and incidentally still receives millions per year in $40M 40 year annuity from that time. Team (LA Express) went belly up in his 2nd season, but still he had a game where he threw 300+ yards and ran for 100+ yards, first pro to do so.

He went in supplemental draft to TB and posted a 3-16 W-L mark with 11/21 TD/INT total.

Then he sat on bench for 4 seasons until 1991. Got benched for Steve Bono, then Bono got hurt, he got another chance. 92-94 he broke out, and had great success, pro bowls + SB in 94 season.

After that injuries took their toll, but he still posted great numbers.

QB take lots of hits period — big, small, light, heavy, fast, slow… …and defensive players keep getting bigger, faster and stronger…

[naum]

The 'problem' with the NFL is the sheer speed of the defenses.

Yeah, 300+ pound DL that run 4.6 40… …that's just sick… …and deadly…

[Paelos]

I'm going to point out something obvious here. People don't want running QBs because it makes the game even more one-man oriented than ever. Football is the ultimate team sport, and if you have a QB running around all the time, it puts all your eggs in one basket. Typically the QBs with wheels haven't fared well either. That and I honestly believe certain fans don't want black QBs to succeed in what they consider to be the last white-dominated skill position.

[SnakeCharmer]

Thing is, if your QB goes down, your season is pretty much tanked.  You think the Saints would be in their position if Brees blows out his shoulder again?  Or the Steelers?  The QB is the marquee position in the NFL.  Nothing else comes close.  Maybe WR, but no matter how good a player so and so WR is, it all starts with the QB making the read and then getting the ball where it needs to go for the WR to catch it.  THAT said, a WR with hands of velcro can make any QB look good.

As far as the race thing?  Maybe.  Maybe not, these days.  It's the easiest thing to attack with, so it's the ammunition that gets used.  But I like to think we're past that.

Drooling-at-the-mouth-spit-swearing-obsessed-NFL team-fan-guy that relentlessly posts on sports blogs, calls/emails/texts/stalks the local sports talk shows, and heckles from the cheapseats isn't representative of the whole.  They're just the loudest.

[Nebu]

Thing is, if your QB goes down, your season is pretty much tanked.  You think the Saints would be in their position if Brees blows out his shoulder again?  Or the Steelers?  The QB is the marquee position in the NFL.  Nothing else comes close.  Maybe WR, but no matter how good a player so and so WR is, it all starts with the QB making the read and then getting the ball where it needs to go for the WR to catch it. 

As an ex defensive guy, I'd argue that a good LB can change the game.  Look at LT, Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary, Jack Lambert, etc.

[Paelos]

Maybe we're past the race things, but the numbers on black coaches and starting QBs make me think we're not.

I do believe that a QB regardless of where they come from is going to be defined by their game intelligence. A big problem with a lot of college QBs now is that they don't get decent development at assessing anything on the field. One of my biggest pet peeves is when a team sets up at the line, looks like they will snap the ball, and then the ENTIRE team picks their heads up like a bunch of goddamn gophers and looks back at the coaching staff changing the play.

You don't pull that kind of bullshit in the NFL.

[SnakeCharmer]

As an ex defensive guy, I'd argue that a good LB can change the game.  Look at LT, Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary, Jack Lambert, etc.

I don't disagree, at all.  I was just speaking purely from an offensive standpoint.

Maybe we're past the race things, but the numbers on black coaches and starting QBs make me think we're not.

Money.  Corporate sponsorships (NFL) and big time donors (college level), would take a hit - or rather, the perception is there.  Rather, the recipients of those sponsorships and donations.  NFL and college football is about one thing:  revenue.   They're not going to sell more seats, or season tickets, or sponsorships just because of a black coach, so why do it?  All they care about is winning.  Which is what drives the revenue (for the most part).  That's the biggest obstacle, I think.  Could be wrong though.

I do think that the resistance is partly due to stubborness from the owners that sit back and privately say 'YOU'RE not going to tell ME who to hire', when responding the BCA inquiries and such.

I do believe that a QB regardless of where they come from is going to be defined by their game intelligence. A big problem with a lot of college QBs now is that they don't get decent development at assessing anything on the field. One of my biggest pet peeves is when a team sets up at the line, looks like they will snap the ball, and then the ENTIRE team picks their heads up like a bunch of goddamn gophers and looks back at the coaching staff changing the play.

You don't pull that kind of bullshit in the NFL.

 

Heh.  Yeah.  I called them prarrie dogs in the college football thread.  But to be 'fair' to the NFL QB's, while they aren't looking back at the coaches, they can hear them in their helmets.  Not much difference, honestly.

The development starts in tiny mite, IMHO.  If you're a gifted athlete (black or white), you're told do this OR that, then/or run really fast while you do it.  Even the otherworld athletes aren't getting the same mental attention they're getting in physical attention.  Frankly, it's going to get worse.  The spread offense dominates high school football in terms of what systems high schools run, and sooner rather than later it's going to dominate college level systems because that's all that's what the college level talent is getting coached at.  Pretty soon, the prototypical 3/5 drop step 'pro style' QB is going to be a thing of the past in favor of the en vogue spread QB.  The spread is just an evolution of the veer, which is basically an evolution of the wishbone (or I might have that backwards).  

Then in 20 years, it will come back full circle to the pro style once someone starts having major success with it again.


So anyway.  Derailed.  If you want to talk about it, we can in PMs, but this is heading dangerously close to the cesspit forums of F13.  I SHALL NOT HAVE THE SECOND HOLIEST THREAD DISCUSSING FOOTBALL (THE FIRST BEING THE COLLEGE FOOTBALL THREAD) TARNISHED BY SUCH ACTIONS!!   

How 'bout dem taints?

[Paelos]

The real question now is: Is it possible for two teams to pull off an undefeated season in the same year? The Colts and Saints have a chance to make history...again.

[Triforcer]

The Saints have been living dangerously for a few games now, and their depleted secondary is going to catch up with them.  I actually like the Vikes to beat them come playoff time.

Indy has a better chance, imho.  But they face a streaking Tennessee, and the periodically dangerous Jaguars and Giants (and even Denver has a shot if they stop the free-fall).  There are no Clevelands or Detroits left on their schedule, but I still give them an even shot to take them all. 

[Abagadro]

You don't pull that kind of bullshit in the NFL.

The Colts do except they look at Manning rather than the sidelines. What that guy is currently doing is on a completely different level that I don't think we've seen in the NFL. I don't know that enough people truly appreciate it.