Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440
2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST
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But yeah...if the end game is supposed to be where the fun is, then it makes no sense to make people slowly grind through boring lower levels.
It does if you want them to stay subscribed for a long time.
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Why am I homeless? Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question. They called it The Prayer, its answer was law Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
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Hindenburg
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1854
Itto
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what are you trying to do? blind me?  stopthatshit.jpg inc.
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« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 01:34:17 PM by Hindenburg »
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"Who uses Outlook anyway? People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
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schild
Administrator
Posts: 60350
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How did you have time to do that with so much partying happening right there in your computadora?
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IainC
Developers
Posts: 6538
Wargaming.net
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It was during a well earned break from collecting blackmail material on Eve devs.
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Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
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This is stupid, but fun. 
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440
2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST
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Cygwin is like cats and dogs sleeping together.
Also, I think Itto's language is fake. Prototipo - if I can read it, it's not foreign.
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Why am I homeless? Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question. They called it The Prayer, its answer was law Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
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WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028
Badicalthon
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 I think I did it wrong.
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"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig." -- Schild "Yeah, it's pretty awesome." -- Me
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Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440
2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST
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I think I did it wrong.
On the contrary, you may have won.
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Why am I homeless? Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question. They called it The Prayer, its answer was law Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
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Hindenburg
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1854
Itto
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Man, jokes involving nobel prize winners get no respect.
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"Who uses Outlook anyway? People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
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rattran
Moderator
Posts: 4258
Unreasonable
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Man, jokes involving nobel prize winners get no respect.
Jokes are supposed to be funny. It's what makes them jokes.
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Hindenburg
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1854
Itto
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Jokes are supposed to be funny. It's what makes them jokes. A referecence to the previous american government would be the following step. Sadly, it'd wander into full retard territory shortly after. Guessing the next step would be binary.
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"Who uses Outlook anyway? People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
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Ard
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1887
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We've just had hex, we can't stop here, this is bat country.
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Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
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Cygwin is like cats and dogs sleeping together.
X on cygwin using vi at that.  I'd do an old black and white VAX dummy terminal, but it'd be hard to get a screen cap and we threw those out years ago, which makes it even harder.
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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IainC
Developers
Posts: 6538
Wargaming.net
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Pah, you're all amateurs. I wrote this message using a magnetised pin and a very steady hand directly onto the HD platter at the f13 server farm.
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Delmania
Terracotta Army
Posts: 676
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Pah, you're all amateurs. I wrote this message using a magnetised pin and a very steady hand directly onto the HD platter at the f13 server farm.
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Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865
Internet Detective
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But yeah...if the end game is supposed to be where the fun is, then it makes no sense to make people slowly grind through boring lower levels.
It does if you want them to stay subscribed for a long time. I don't think they consider the efforts they put into making the classes different. Finding out you don't like playing a Witch Hunter at 40 after 2 months is very different to finding out after 2 weeks. If it's about about retention (and based on box sales it is) then I wouldn't trust the players to pick the class that suites them best on their first go. There's a reason WoW players have so many more maxed out characters than normal.
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Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613
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I think the more obvious solution is to recognize that if your PvE sucks, then you better not make it the emphasis of the game.
DAoC learned (eventually) that making the pve portion trivial added a lot to replay value. WAR suffers from a double wammy: The PvE sucks making the long grind to the endgame seem even longer AND having a shitty endgame, so the grind that you endured to get there now seems like kick to the groin. If you're going to make your players grind to get to an endgame, at least have the decency to make the endgame worth the wait.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Sjofn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8286
Truckasaurus Hands
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I'm not really convinced the grind really keeps people subbed longer than they normally would otherwise, especially if your classes are different and fun and you have a decent endgame. I don't dispute people making MMOs assume this is the case, and maybe it really is, but I do know that I quit MMOs before reaching cap or earlier than I might've otherwise because the grind sucked so bad and because I wanted to try more than one class but that was going to be too soulcrushing to actually do. I'd be pretty surprised if that attitude didn't become more and more prominent as the gamer population widens and ages.
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God Save the Horn Players
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ghost
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One would have to assume that there is a breaking point where the grind causes more people to quit than a cool endgame would retain. Each person is willing to put with with varying amounts of bullshit to get to the golden carrot. The stronger the endgame, the more "grind" people will suffer through to get there. Obviously, WAR has won the grind battle by making their endgame so stupid and futile as to make any amount of grind seem ludicrous.
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waylander
Terracotta Army
Posts: 526
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But yeah...if the end game is supposed to be where the fun is, then it makes no sense to make people slowly grind through boring lower levels.
It does if you want them to stay subscribed for a long time. Why not just make the end game actually fun?
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Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
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Madness!
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280
Auto Assault Affectionado
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I hear that's really easy, as evidenced by the hundreds of games out there that are all totally fun.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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UnSub
Contributor
Posts: 8064
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I hear that's really easy, as evidenced by the hundreds of games out there that are all totally fun.
Oh, it's totally the devs' fault that they can't make an endgame where you do the same thing 100 times over (after having done similar things 1 000 000 times to get there) yet remains fun for years. Everyone knows how easy it would be to fix. 
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Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536
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One would have to assume that there is a breaking point where the grind causes more people to quit than a cool endgame would retain. Each person is willing to put with with varying amounts of bullshit to get to the golden carrot.
The carrot isn't the endgame at first. Not for people untrained by prior raid/RvR MMOs anyway. The grind sets in more because of the time between new unique abilities than the pure time it takes to level. The people it pisses off the most are those trained by prior games, but they either suffer through or buy a premade somehow anyway. I would bet there's little correlation between the time it takes to reach the cap and the the length of a subscription. Rather, it's probably more about time between the feeling of "new" as linked to abilities, zones, types of encounters, etc. People who quit because they didn't reach the cap fast enough weren't lured by the endgame enough, probably because there is another game with a more polished endgame anyway.
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columba
Terracotta Army
Posts: 29
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Since Jacobs had the ethics of an ambulance chaser (and the same profession), I hope he rots somewhere. Killing off two good games was the least of his crimes.
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Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553
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Since Jacobs had the ethics of an ambulance chaser (and the same profession), I hope he rots somewhere. Killing off two good games was the least of his crimes.
Your three posts have been very substantive.
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Feverdream
Terracotta Army
Posts: 98
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Since Jacobs had the ethics of an ambulance chaser (and the same profession), I hope he rots somewhere. Killing off two good games was the least of his crimes.
Your three posts have been very substantive. Someone referenced f13 on a Warhammer thread on VN in the last couple of days, if I remember right. I think this is fallout.
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Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
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Dear gods, no. 
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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Feverdream
Terracotta Army
Posts: 98
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Actually, I just poked around on VN, and in a thread about WAR's falling subscription numbers someone linked to f13, while another poster mentioned that developers post here and asserted that the level of discourse was intelligent.
So yeah. Fallout. There are a couple of really obsessive types on VN who only seem to be able to write some variation of "Mythic sucks". They never say substantively more than that, and it gets pretty boring. I've always hoped they wouldn't find their way over here. I may not post much, but this place is sort of a haven for my warped little brain =P
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Xuri
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1199
몇살이세욬ㅋ 몇살이 몇살 몇살이세욬ㅋ!!!!!1!
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What Fallout? I see one guy.
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-= Ho Eyo He Hum =-
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Arthur_Parker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5865
Internet Detective
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Thinking back that warhammer thread, just after Mark started posting, was more enjoyable than the game. All the new posters discovering this place and deciding to write their first mmo novel in post form was hilarious. We should have an archive of comedy gold threads.
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Hindenburg
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1854
Itto
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Not all. Just the absolute majority.
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"Who uses Outlook anyway? People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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Is that a Frog riding a tiny motorcycle?
If so I approve.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Nevermore
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4740
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What Fallout? I see one guy.
I guess that truly goes to show how far WAR has fallen.
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Over and out.
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