My Top Warcraft Wants

[chargerrich]

Here are my top 10... post your ideas!

Yes some of these ideas were implemented in and stolen from WAR... to bad WAR is knee deep in suckage.

1.   Guild Leveling w/ perks (ala WAR but better)
2.   Guild Tax rate
3.   PvP XP (with /xp off switch)
4.   Collision Detection in PvP
5.   Personal Ship "mounts"
6.   Ability to Fly in Old World
7.   Ship to Ship Combat (with multiple people manning cannons/guns/ballista)
8.   Some upgrade mechanism to take old gear (pvp and instance) and upgrading it in level (even if below par for level)
9.   5/10/25/40 man switch for raid instances... bring back 40 mans as optional (not forced)
10. Increased incentive to make people go back to BT, KARA, MC, BWL, Gruuls, AQ, et al. (/80 switch would be cool)

[Ingmar]

I'd kill to be able to set a guild tax.

[Vash]

I'd kill to be able to set a guild tax.

There is a very well built and customizable/flexible addon that allows guilds to set up a tax system.  The name is escaping me for some reason, but I'm sure with some searching at Curse.com or google fu you could find it.

[Selby]

10. Increased incentive to make people go back to BT, KARA, MC, BWL, Gruuls, AQ, et al. (/80 switch would be cool)

As long as it ISN'T mandatory that you have to do the old world content in order to progress, I agree.  Making the quests and rewards somewhat comparable to the L80 endgame wouldn't hurt and would give people some incentives to see and learn the old fights if they wanted to.  But mandatory 40 man raids, key farming, 1 quest item for 1 person progressed a week?  Sign me out ;-)

[Lakov_Sanite]

1.   Guild Leveling- would be very cool
2.   Guild Tax rate- nice idea but would just make guilds even more a pain than they are now
3.   PvP XP - I would like this but I don't pvp often enough to care much.
4.   Collision Detection in PvP - this is NEVER a good idea in an mmo
5.   Personal Ship "mounts"- I like it but there's not enough water yet to really justify it. there's beaches in wow but no real oceans.
6.   Ability to Fly in Old World - I don't know about this one. The teerain just wasnt built for flight travel so I'd be happy with faster ground mounts.
7.   Ship to Ship Combat (with  multiple people manning cannons/guns/ballista) - again, needs more water to be viable.
8.   Some upgrade mechanism to take old gear (pvp and instance) and upgrading it in level (even if below par for level) - A cool idea but one that would take way too much reverse engineering-
9.   5/10/25/40 man switch for raid instances... bring back 40 mans as optional (not forced) - you couldn't pay me to do another 40man raid in any game.
10. Increased incentive to make people go back to BT, KARA, MC, BWL, Gruuls, AQ, et al. (/80 switch would be cool) - same as above really.

[Rasix]

Here are my top 8... post your ideas!

Looks like a top 10 list.  

Out of your entire list, I'd only remotely care about #6.  Of course, it's mostly a moot point as I don't care about the old world anymore. #4 is an absolutely horrid idea.

I'm bored, so here goes:  

1.  Soloable/scalable instances/raids. Unlike you, I want it to scale down to the basic unit of the game. I don't care if the rewards are heavily reduced, as long as there is some reward that isn't completely insulting.
2.  Housing.  I know it would have to be instanced, but it could be interesting at least as a diversion.  Plus you could add a new profession: carpentry!
3.  An appearance tab.  I'd rather look like what I want (as long as I have the items) without reducing my readiness to kick ass.
4.  Long class specific quest lines, similar to the Death Knight introduction.  Some sort of class specific reward (doesn't even have to be practical) but it ideally it would have some choice to differentiate among everyone that completed it.  This should be a personal challenge, not a popsockathon.
5.  If #1 is too much to ask, hireable NPCs would be nice.
6.  An end to the ever escalating badge system. Go back to one currency for heroic and raid boss kills.
7.  A /level option for someone with single/multiple level 80s.  If anything to just skip old world leveling, it sucks. I'd even pay for this.
8.  More fluff that is not designed by whomever did the jousting.  Housing would tie into this.  Make the Darkmoon Faire more alive.  Add racing.  Add some form of gambling with a token system.  (not gold, that could get out of hand)
9.  Removal of the hit and possibly expertise stats.  Can we replace them with something less stupid? It seems like their only use is cockblocking people from being a drain their first few times in Naxx or making gemming/enchanting more assy than they need to be.
10.  Drastically reduce the levels required for outland and Northrend flying.  This is less of an issue in Northrend due to the copious amount of flight paths, but I'd rather use my expensive flying sooner rather than later.  Also, Outland has a lot of really big zones that require a lot of "hoofing" it.

This is coming from someone whose playing situation is going to change rather drastically very soon.  I'd really love to enjoy WoW in small chunks without having to rely on others for more than just social interaction.  Reallistically, I'll probably just end up playing the SWTOR.

[Salamok]

about the only thing that would get me back to WoW is if they added the ability to dual class.

[Nevermore]

about the only thing that would get me back to WoW is if they added the ability to dual class.

Make a Druid.

[stu]

_Siege castles like in Lineage 2. Guild gets a percentage of money earned from NPC deaths in that castle's zone. A virtual smorgasborg of castles. Player run castles should be everywhere.

_Text that 'clicks' as I type in chat.

_Gambling would be cool if loot could be used along with gold.

[Malakili]

_Siege castles like in Lineage 2. Guild gets a percentage of money earned from NPC deaths in that castle's zone. A virtual smorgasborg of castles. Player run castles should be everywhere.

This would be  in WoW.  The landscape doesn't have much "open" space as it is, imagine people trying to cram castles into it?   I like this idea in general, but in WoW it would be totally unworkable.

[K9]

8.   Some upgrade mechanism to take old gear (pvp and instance) and upgrading it in level (even if below par for level)
9.   5/10/25/40 man switch for raid instances... bring back 40 mans as optional (not forced)
10. Increased incentive to make people go back to BT, KARA, MC, BWL, Gruuls, AQ, et al. (/80 switch would be cool)

The benefit of these is so utterly dwarfed by the additional effort it would require makes them not worth it imo. We don't need 5 man raids, that's a stupid model, the 10 and 25 man options works fine in most ways (bar Blizz persistently treating 10-man raiders like 2nd class citizens).

1.  Soloable/scalable instances/raids. Unlike you, I want it to scale down to the basic unit of the game. I don't care if the rewards are heavily reduced, as long as there is some reward that isn't completely insulting.
9.  Removal of the hit and possibly expertise stats.  Can we replace them with something less stupid? It seems like their only use is cockblocking people from being a drain their first few times in Naxx or making gemming/enchanting more assy than they need to be.

I agree with most of your points but these two I would raise some comments on. Scalable content is a nice idea in principle but wouldn't work in practice. In part this is due to the huge variation in classes abilities to solo stuff. A solo instance that would be challenging for a Mage would be something most DKs, Paladins and Feral druids could do semi afk for instance. The other problem is that designing complex and varied fight mechanics for solo players is very hard. Soloing old instances normally involves completely disregarding fight mechanics, rather than adapting to them. So overall I think this would greatly diminish the experience. I sympathise with the desire to see content, as a 10-man raider I was locked out of almost all higher content for most of TBC and all of vanilla; yet I think solo is pushing it too far.

As for stats. While hit is a hassle for DPS (while expertise has a cap, it's not something you have to strive for as hard as hit) the game is already significantly homogenised and running out of stats fast. If you remove hit and expertise you'll get several classes who only need a single stat, and you are edging closer to a broad 'BE MORE POWERFUL!' stat that applies to all classes. I realise this is hyperbole but I prefer added complexity in stats and gearing, although it could be made more intuitive;  personally I feel if anything we need more stats, not less.

[Malakili]

As for stats. While hit is a hassle for DPS (while expertise has a cap, it's not something you have to strive for as hard as hit) the game is already significantly homogenised and running out of stats fast. If you remove hit and expertise you'll get several classes who only need a single stat, and you are edging closer to a broad 'BE MORE POWERFUL!' stat that applies to all classes. I realise this is hyperbole but I prefer added complexity in stats and gearing, although it could be made more intuitive;  personally I feel if anything we need more stats, not less.

Eh, I don't know.  Expertise is alright, but hit rating drives me bonkers.  Its so obviously a cockblock stat and nothing else.

As it stands we are looking at what:  Hit , Expertise, Defense, Dodge, Parry, Critical Strike, and Haste ratings.   I've probably forgot something.  Thats aside from things like spell power/attack power and normal attributes. Of course, those don't all apply to every class, but I'd be just as happy on, for instance, my mage, if hit rating went away and I could just worry about Haste and Crit.   

You know, I think part of my problem with hit rating is that it doesn't do anything to my numbers.  It makes me more likely just to hit something, not to do more damage (spell power), not to double (or 1.5x) damage (crit rating), or do damage faster (haste rating), but I need it just to not see the word "miss"  I know thats incredibly valuable in terms of raid DPS/spread sheeting, but in terms of in - game satisfaction, there is almost no other stat that feels as ho hum at hit rating.

[Lantyssa]

1) An appearance tab
2) Housing
3) An appearance tab
4) More items that level with you; obtainable at any level
5) An appearance tab
6) More Bind on Account items
7) An appearance tab
8) Ability to send fluff BoA items across servers
9) An appearance tab
A) To be able to not be repetative on odd numbered responsed by implementation of such.

Most of that I don't expect.  I just really want an appearance tab so I had to fill space.

[K9]

You know, I think part of my problem with hit rating is that it doesn't do anything to my numbers.  It makes me more likely just to hit something, not to do more damage (spell power), not to double (or 1.5x) damage (crit rating), or do damage faster (haste rating), but I need it just to not see the word "miss"  I know thats incredibly valuable in terms of raid DPS/spread sheeting, but in terms of in - game satisfaction, there is almost no other stat that feels as ho hum at hit rating.

This is why I say it could be more intuitive. It's the least visible stat in terms of how it improves your character, yet for almost every class it offers the greatest immediate increase in DPS. This is only noticeable if you are using addons like recount though, which aren't baseline in the game.

I'm not wholly against canning hit, it's just that there need to be other stats in my view. In part to allow characters to develop in slightly different ways, and in part to offer some level of challenge/complexity. As it stands now, classes like Ret Paladins more or less exclusively stack 1 stat, and I'm sure mindlessly stacking a single stat doesn't make the game more fun.

[Ingmar]

8) Ability to send fluff BoA items across servers

...AND FACTIONS. My Horde-side Murky bad decision still haunts me.

[Fordel]

8) Ability to send fluff BoA items across servers

...AND FACTIONS. My Horde-side Murky bad decision still haunts me.

AS IT SHOULD. 

[stu]

_Siege castles like in Lineage 2. Guild gets a percentage of money earned from NPC deaths in that castle's zone. A virtual smorgasborg of castles. Player run castles should be everywhere.

This would be  in WoW.  The landscape doesn't have much "open" space as it is, imagine people trying to cram castles into it?   I like this idea in general, but in WoW it would be totally unworkable.

True enough. Maybe islands off the coastlines with castles on them? Floating hunks of land like Dalaran? What can I say? I'm in love with the idea of sieges.

[Merusk]

1) An appearance tab
2) Housing
3) An appearance tab
4) More items that level with you; obtainable at any level
5) An appearance tab
6) More Bind on Account items
7) An appearance tab
8) Ability to send fluff BoA items across servers
9) An appearance tab
A) To be able to not be repetative on odd numbered responsed by implementation of such.

Most of that I don't expect.  I just really want an appearance tab so I had to fill space.

You will never, ever, ever get one. I realized this in the thread where we were discussing some upcoming MMO and turning off the shoulders was discussed.  It's not about you, or what the players want.   It's about the branding of the raiding game style.  If you let people turn off armors they think are ugly, you dilute the desire to be those players. Mentally you begin to strangle raiding.   While you may be fine with this, it's one of the core game experiences now, so there's no way they're going to be fine with doing away with it 4 years into the life cycle.

[Lakov_Sanite]

An appearance tab is the worst thing ever. Now I know people want to look how they like but there are tons of clothes and armor options out there for people who take the time to look. The only problem is you can't actually pve or pvp while wearing them but im fine with that.  As soon as there's an appearance tab overriding armor you will have to not only read the stupidity of others in your chat logs but also witness it in its full glory.  

Edit to add: I played city of heroes and the robo-hedgehog was the coolest tiny scrapper ever but when i realized items meant jack squat and it was just bashing mobs until max level, it did get boring.

[Sheepherder]

As for stats. While hit is a hassle for DPS (while expertise has a cap, it's not something you have to strive for as hard as hit) the game is already significantly homogenised and running out of stats fast. If you remove hit and expertise you'll get several classes who only need a single stat, and you are edging closer to a broad 'BE MORE POWERFUL!' stat that applies to all classes.

1. Expertise is exactly as valuable as hit per point in raids, aside from the crazy rounding errors.  When grinding it is twice as valuable (dodge + parry).
2. Almost every single class in the game has a "make stronger, rawr" stat.  The break-even points for attack power / spell damage stats versus % modifiers such as crit are effectively unreachable for the vast majority of classes until (at best) the end of the expansion cycle.

[Ingmar]

1. Expertise is exactly as valuable as hit per point in raids, aside from the crazy rounding errors.  When grinding it is twice as valuable (dodge + parry).

This is pretty dependent on class. Obviously setting aside casters and hunters, for any melee class that does a significant amount of damage via magic attacks (enhance shamans and frost DKs come to mind immediately, maybe ret paladins, I don't know about the other specs of DK) hit will do more than expertise (assuming you are behind the mob obviously).

It may be that only warriors and (probably) rogues benefit exactly the same from expertise as hit, thinking about it. And that's assuming rogues don't still have some lingering poison type attacks that use spell hit and can't be dodged, as I believe was once true?

EDIT: Oh duh, and ferals, they are probably in the warrior column being all hits and bleeds.

[WindupAtheist]

1) An appearance tab
2) Housing
3) An appearance tab
4) More items that level with you; obtainable at any level
5) An appearance tab
6) More Bind on Account items
7) An appearance tab
8) Ability to send fluff BoA items across servers
9) An appearance tab
A) To be able to not be repetative on odd numbered responsed by implementation of such.

Most of that I don't expect.  I just really want an appearance tab so I had to fill space.

You are me on the inside. Only less of an asshole than me. ^_^

[Paelos]

An appearance tab is never coming. Ever. Put that one out of your minds. Housing is probably never coming either because they've had ample time to do it and have just said "Fuck it."

However, I could see them doing boat combat just because they love vehicles and the next expansion would involve the Maelstrom.

[Nevermore]

EDIT: Oh duh, and ferals, they are probably in the warrior column being all hits and bleeds.

Actually no, at least for cats.  Hit and expertise are pretty far down the list of desired stats, from what I've read.  Cat attack speed is so fast that misses don't seem to impact their dps nearly as much as a slow swinging class.  A significant portion of cat damage is white or DoTs (the DoT ticks don't miss).

[Malakili]

However, I could see them doing boat combat just because they love vehicles and the next expansion would involve the Maelstrom.

I am perplexed by their seeming obsession with vehicles, I think its just terrible in 90% of the cases.  I do agree that the Maelstrom seems like a probable candidate for another expansion pack though.  I honestly hope that they don't go for naval combat though.  If they go with Maelstrom, the likely thing is that they would add water mounts, which might be fun, but stay away from the combat on them, or boats, please! (And for us druids, epic aquatic form!)

[Rendakor]

My list in no particular order:

1. Reduce the level cap on flying to 58 in Outland and 68 in Northrend. Or hell, remove the level cap from all mounts entirely.
2. Add a Sons of Hodir tabard; they figured out that BC repgrinds sucked, then put one in WotLK anyway. 
3. Allow flight in the old world, or add a 280% speed ground mount.
4. "Hide Tabard" display option please.
5a. Remove item drop style quests from the game, or
5b. Make all item drop quests drop quest items for all group members.
6. Armor dyes.

Appearance tab won't happen, as much as I loved it in EQ2. I don't find Hit and Defense caps to be that annoying, either. I don't find any of chargerrich's suggestions necessary or helpful (except old world flight).

[Sheepherder]

This is pretty dependent on class. Obviously setting aside casters and hunters, for any melee class that does a significant amount of damage via magic attacks (enhance shamans and frost DKs come to mind immediately, maybe ret paladins, I don't know about the other specs of DK) hit will do more than expertise (assuming you are behind the mob obviously).

It may be that only warriors and (probably) rogues benefit exactly the same from expertise as hit, thinking about it. And that's assuming rogues don't still have some lingering poison type attacks that use spell hit and can't be dodged, as I believe was once true?

EDIT: Oh duh, and ferals, they are probably in the warrior column being all hits and bleeds.

Yeah, I assumed that casters / hunters / freakish hybrid dps were excluded.  I should have specified "physical", I think I intended to, I don't know why I didn't.

Apparently poisons still use spell mechanics.  So yeah, hit > expertise for rogues...  I think, the different coefficient from hit rating -> hit % for melee and spell along with Misery / Imp Faerie Fire are fucking with my brain.  A number of the developers at Blizzard need to eat shit and die, because this is all horribly convoluted.

Actually no, at least for cats.  Hit and expertise are pretty far down the list of desired stats, from what I've read.  Cat attack speed is so fast that misses don't seem to impact their dps nearly as much as a slow swinging class.  A significant portion of cat damage is white or DoTs (the DoT ticks don't miss).

I really don't see how attack speed affects anything.  A quick look over at Elitist Jerks suggests my mode of thinking is not incorrect.  The sparse druid data suggests that hit and expertise are very high priority and roughly equal value, and the similar attack frequency (two daggers, ~1.8 speed +/- poison procs) of mutilate rogue builds leave me scratching my head as to how people figure attack speed makes any difference.

[Phred]

You know, I think part of my problem with hit rating is that it doesn't do anything to my numbers.  It makes me more likely just to hit something, not to do more damage (spell power), not to double (or 1.5x) damage (crit rating), or do damage faster (haste rating), but I need it just to not see the word "miss"  I know thats incredibly valuable in terms of raid DPS/spread sheeting, but in terms of in - game satisfaction, there is almost no other stat that feels as ho hum at hit rating.

I think you're just failing to look at the dmg upgrade correctly. Hit is one of the most powerful stats you can upgrade until you reach cap. Just because it says 10% chance to miss changes to 8% with some upgrades/gemming, you actually just increased your dps by 2%. That's pretty damn significant, imo. I just wish so much of the damn uldaur mail gear didn't have hit on it. I'm capped and I don't have any more gems to replace.

[ezrast]

1. Mentoring down, OR sidekicking up, OR /level to, like, 60 or something.
2. Instances scaled to be doable with 2-4 people.
3. No instance locks - hell, I'd even settle for soft locks where you can enter a raid many times but only get gear from it once.
4. Scrap the auction house and replace it with something more like EQ2's.
5. Scrap the LFG system and replace it with something more like CoX's.

edit for Sheepherder: oh yeah, 6. No race/class restrictions. Knew I was forgetting something.

[Sheepherder]

Not mentioned previously:

1. Playable dwarven shaman.
2. Playable undead paladin.
3. Another hero class to make up for the fact that we didn't get one in TBC.

[chargerrich]

Here are my top 8... post your ideas!

1.  Soloable/scalable instances/raids. Unlike you, I want it to scale down to the basic unit of the game. I don't care if the rewards are heavily reduced, as long as there is some reward that isn't completely insulting.
2.  Housing.  I know it would have to be instanced, but it could be interesting at least as a diversion.  Plus you could add a new profession: carpentry!
3.  An appearance tab.  I'd rather look like what I want (as long as I have the items) without reducing my readiness to kick ass.
4.  Long class specific quest lines, similar to the Death Knight introduction.  Some sort of class specific reward (doesn't even have to be practical) but it ideally it would have some choice to differentiate among everyone that completed it.  This should be a personal challenge, not a popsockathon.
5.  If #1 is too much to ask, hireable NPCs would be nice.
6.  An end to the ever escalating badge system. Go back to one currency for heroic and raid boss kills.
7.  A /level option for someone with single/multiple level 80s.  If anything to just skip old world leveling, it sucks. I'd even pay for this.
8.  More fluff that is not designed by whomever did the jousting.  Housing would tie into this.  Make the Darkmoon Faire more alive.  Add racing.  Add some form of gambling with a token system.  (not gold, that could get out of hand)
9.  Removal of the hit and possibly expertise stats.  Can we replace them with something less stupid? It seems like their only use is cockblocking people from being a drain their first few times in Naxx or making gemming/enchanting more assy than they need to be.
10.  Drastically reduce the levels required for outland and Northrend flying.  This is less of an issue in Northrend due to the copious amount of flight paths, but I'd rather use my expensive flying sooner rather than later.  Also, Outland has a lot of really big zones that require a lot of "hoofing" it.

This is coming from someone whose playing situation is going to change rather drastically very soon.  I'd really love to enjoy WoW in small chunks without having to rely on others for more than just social interaction.  Reallistically, I'll probably just end up playing the SWTOR.

I actually love # 1 and # 2 on your list.

The ability to 5 man Nax, Ulduar or even solo some older stuff (with greatly reduce rewards) would be very appealing.

Housing was on my draft list but assumed I would flamed all to hell so I took it off 

Insto level 60 button would be good, but I think Blizzard wants to hold on to the classic stuff as long as possible.

[chargerrich]

1) An appearance tab
2) Housing
3) An appearance tab
4) More items that level with you; obtainable at any level
5) An appearance tab
6) More Bind on Account items
7) An appearance tab
8) Ability to send fluff BoA items across servers
9) An appearance tab
A) To be able to not be repetative on odd numbered responsed by implementation of such.

Most of that I don't expect.  I just really want an appearance tab so I had to fill space.

I love # 4!
I hear LOTRO does this exceptionally well (never played myself) and since Blizzard has started down this path, we might actually see some truly epic quality BOA type living items.

[chargerrich]

My list in no particular order:

1. Reduce the level cap on flying to 58 in Outland and 68 in Northrend. Or hell, remove the level cap from all mounts entirely.
2. Add a Sons of Hodir tabard; they figured out that BC repgrinds sucked, then put one in WotLK anyway. 
3. Allow flight in the old world, or add a 280% speed ground mount.
4. "Hide Tabard" display option please.
5a. Remove item drop style quests from the game, or
5b. Make all item drop quests drop quest items for all group members.
6. Armor dyes.

Appearance tab won't happen, as much as I loved it in EQ2. I don't find Hit and Defense caps to be that annoying, either. I don't find any of chargerrich's suggestions necessary or helpful (except old world flight).

Sorry for back to back to back replies but this thread is so interesting to me 

Armor Dyes would be a great compomise from an appearance tab (I agree that will not happen) but unfortunately I am not sure Dyes are possible either. I remember reading a blue post from at least 2 years ago where this was addressed. It was said that the way the art is coded would not allow the changing of the colors via any sort of dye mechanic. Like I said it has been a while so perhaps (hopefully) this stance has changed, I would love to be able to dye armor (even though that would mean 80% of your server would be clad in black) 

[Nevermore]

Actually no, at least for cats.  Hit and expertise are pretty far down the list of desired stats, from what I've read.  Cat attack speed is so fast that misses don't seem to impact their dps nearly as much as a slow swinging class.  A significant portion of cat damage is white or DoTs (the DoT ticks don't miss).

I really don't see how attack speed affects anything.  A quick look over at Elitist Jerks suggests my mode of thinking is not incorrect.  The sparse druid data suggests that hit and expertise are very high priority and roughly equal value, and the similar attack frequency (two daggers, ~1.8 speed +/- poison procs) of mutilate rogue builds leave me scratching my head as to how people figure attack speed makes any difference.

Are we just interpreting the numbers differently or are you seeing something I'm not.  Taken from Elitist Jerks:

Code:

Info:
Stats value

Stat points dps value
Armor Pen (shred) 28.4 +/- 0.1 1.55 +/- 0.01
Agility 26.9 +/- 0.1 1.47 +/- 0.01
Armor Pen (RIP) 26.8 +/- 0.1 1.46 +/- 0.01
Feral AP 12.00 +/- 0.1 0.65 +/- 0.01
Strengh 23.8 +/- 0.1 1.30 +/- 0.01
Crit 22.9 +/- 0.1 1.25 +/- 0.01
Hit 22.0 +/- 0.1 1.20 +/- 0.01
Expertise 22.0 +/- 0.1 1.20 +/- 0.01
AP 10.00 +/- 0.1 0.55 +/- 0.01
Haste 18.5 +/- 0.1 1.01 +/- 0.01


Discussion
The best in slot trinkets are grim toll and the agility darkmoon card.
Shred idol is better than RIP idol, with the same setup you will do 7179.22 DPS (+3 DPS) but not by a large margin. 
Shred idol scales better with ArPen while other stats scales about the same way (that's why I've putted 2 row for armor pen).
It's important to notice that all stats scales about lineary in relative value. All but Armor Pen, the more you have, the better it is.
There are 2 boundary lines about ArPen:
At about 400 ArPen with RIP idol and 200 ArPen with Shred idol, ArPen becames a better stats than agility.
For a similar reason at about 240 ArPen Shred idol becames better than RIP idol.

Hit and Expertise rate below Agility, Armor Penetration (since the buff to it), Strength and Crit.  The attack speed thing was just my guess as to why, but I suppose statistically it wouldn't make a difference over time.

[Malakili]

I think you're just failing to look at the dmg upgrade correctly. Hit is one of the most powerful stats you can upgrade until you reach cap. Just because it says 10% chance to miss changes to 8% with some upgrades/gemming, you actually just increased your dps by 2%. That's pretty damn significant, imo. I just wish so much of the damn uldaur mail gear didn't have hit on it. I'm capped and I don't have any more gems to replace.

No, I UNDERSTAND the significance of +hit.  I know the DPS upgrade is there, and I know it shows up in WWS reports, meters, etc.  What I'm saying is, its just plain unsatisfying for me on a non-min/maxing level.