"Oh btw, FFXIV Online in 2010"

[Simond]

When people stop buying them.

[LK]

MMOs are too hard. Look at the future being subscriptions for stuff that aren't MMOs.

[Velorath]

this is especially why I want a developer postmortem. You can't look at this and not wonder where it started to go so impressively wrong, and what the particulars were.

I'd assume it has to do with the fact that development on anything other than a portable system seems to be a total clusterfuck for Square-Enix lately (see FFXII, FFXIII, and FFXIII Vs.)

[Rasix]

FFXII was just fine. However, if you're talking commercial success, I have no clue.  Wish they would have expanded on that game instead of flawlessly executing a complete dud in FFXIII.  
 

[DLRiley]

MMOs are too hard. Look at the future being subscriptions for stuff that aren't MMOs.

lolz. Stuff that aren't mmo's but call themsevles mmo's have been wisely avoiding the sub fee. The last game that did it, global agenda, wisely ditched it. The traditional mmo of us neck beards will fall into two categories, f2p + mirco trans and sub + micro trans. Games like Fallen earth and Darkfall will hold stubbornly to the sub only model, but lolz fallen earth already adding micro trans and once the guys at darkfall sort out their spaghetti code i expect them to do the same.

[Velorath]

FFXII was just fine. However, if you're talking commercial success, I have no clue.  Wish they would have expanded on that game instead of flawlessly executing a complete dud in FFXIII.  
 

I'm talking about problems in their various development processes, which led to long delays for 12 and 13 and have resulted in Versus barely even having anything that could be considered a trailer despite having been announced 4 1/2 years ago.

[stu]

Do game companies typically employ focus groups in order to steer design for global product launches? I was just reading a post mortem on FFXIII which hinted at some problems XIV may have run into.

...we were experimenting with Western development methods, and there were talks within the team of global focus groups, which we had rarely conducted with previous projects. At the same time, Square Enix set up international focus groups for certain titles, including Final Fantasy XIII.

Unfortunately, we were already quite far along in development, and knew it would be too late to implement most of the feedback from the player test sessions. Even so, we still signed up for the opportunity, as this would be our only chance before the game’s release to see how Western players would respond to all that we had been working on.

There were some minor hiccups, as we did not have much time to prepare for the focus group sessions, but we were able to successfully conduct player tests and interviews globally. Even though it was too late to apply the majority of the feedback, most team members felt the tests were worthwhile, as it gave them insight into what players wanted globally.

With the changes that were being considered, because of the lack of a clear communication line, the development team was not receiving clear instructions. This resulted in conflicts within the team on whether it was worth forcing certain changes into an already tight schedule.

If you're going to use focus groups to steer design, why wait until you're so deep into development?

[Draegan]

I know Trion used focus groups when they revamped their titles from Heroes of Telara to Rift.  This is where they changed the design from an open soul system to the four callings, and decided to go with two factions instead of just everyone is playing together.  At least that's what I remember reading from one of the Cons.

[Lantyssa]

Focus groups result in New Coke.  Everyone needs to remember that.

[Simond]

No, New Coke was a cover for US production to switch from real sugar to corn syrup.

[Paelos]

Focus groups result in New Coke.  Everyone needs to remember that.

People actually liked the taste of New Coke. They didn't like the fact that they were given no choice, and Coke immediately pulled the old formula off the lines. Southerners flipped the fuck out and complained that Coke was selling out to the Yankees in order to compete with Pepsi. Boycotts, protests, and other insanity led to the reversal of the policy in like 3 months.

[Lantyssa]

It was a debacle no matter how you want to look at it.

[UnSub]

Focus groups result in New Coke.  Everyone needs to remember that.

New Coke was a lesson in that people don't care about taste so much as they do about their connection to the brand. Coke changed their brand overnight and suffered for it.

Focus groups answer the questions you put in front of them and tend to be more conservative in their responses. Also, sometimes what game studios call focus groups are really more in-house usability tests, of which it is critical to remember that usability tests are only as good as the methodology they use (and sections they test). You put 4v4 players into a PvP usability test and it will best tell you how 4v4 players will PvP, not 100v100.

Focus groups are great at providing context and discussion around something, but should be taken as evidence to assist in decision-making rather than the bedrock from which all knowledge is drawn from (or as a convenient scapegoat for when things go wrong).

[Count Nerfedalot]

People liked the taste of New Coke for the same reason that Pepsi wins like 80+% of the silly two-sip taste tests they promote.  Because New Coke and Pepsi are both sweeter than Old Coke.  Halfway through a can though, that cloying sweetness becomes a liability (which the itty bitty samples in the taste tests neatly avoid).

AND the corn syrup for sugar swap was the real motive behind the New Coke, they just over did it and had to "capitulate" to the raging hordes and "reinstate" Classic Coke with the sweetness scaled back to near original levels.  But they kept the far cheaper corn syrup and laughed about their spectacular "bungle" all the way to the bank.

Ah, for the really good ole days when original original Coca~Cola had real Coca (Cocaine) in it!

[waffel]

I prefer Mexican Coke to New Coke any day of the week. And drinking Mexican Coke out of an ice-cold bottle is fucking awesome.

[FieryBalrog]

Sales figures for a game which was completely broken at launch: 630,000.

That honestly seemed like a lot for box sales. Not OMG FUCKING HUGE SUCCESS but given the universal condemnation of the game...

It's still 629,999 more titles than should have been sold.

Been lurking around since the Warhammer fiasco. I just wanted to point out that I'm pretty sure the 630K number is shipped, not sold. Only rumors of the actual sales exist at this point, with 330K US + EU being the usual touted number.

[Velorath]

The trial period has been extended again.  Are they that afraid to see how the subscription numbers turn out once people actually have to start paying for this game?

[Margalis]

If you're going to use focus groups to steer design, why wait until you're so deep into development?

You can't ask focus groups for ideas out of thin air, you have to give them something they can say yes or no to or solicit very specific ideas. Otherwise you end up with Homer's car.

There is a big difference between focus groups and usability testing or user acceptance testing or whatever you want to call it. Typically a focus group is stuff like "we have three different main character designs, which one would you most want to play as" and your focus group chooses Poochy over Mario and Master Chief. Or you present ideas for Tetris, Mario Kart and Dai Katana and they choose Dai Katana because it sounds bad ass.

To get feedback on the game you are working on rather than marketing direction stuff you have to have something concrete to show people. An RPG is a little tough because so much of the fun of the game is in the story, the progression, the graphics and music and such, generally RPGs are not the sort of games that are strongly mechanic driven where you can easily test that mechanic in a vacuum.

If you wanted to see if Mario 64 was fun you could build just the part outside the castle and have people run around and see if they enjoyed climbing up trees, doing jumps and sliding on their belly. I believe that's how Mario 64 was actually made. If you want to see if something like an RPG is fun you can't build a playroom. RPGs are generally more about the entire experience than the moment-to-moment gameplay.

[Rendakor]

The trial period has been extended again.  Are they that afraid to see how the subscription numbers turn out once people actually have to start paying for this game?

Hahahahahaha oh wow. I think they know exactly what the subscription numbers are, and don't want to have to admit them to the shareholders.

[koro]

And PCGamer has an interview with two of FFXIV's producers.

The tl;dr is:

PCGamer: "Your game is shitty. How shitty is it?"
Hiromichi Tanaka: "So shitty."
Sage Sundi: "The shittiest."

[Margalis]

Justify your posting in this thread koro!

DO IT NOW OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES.

[Reg]

I hear everyone is lying about this game. Turns out it's awesome. The next WoW killer.

[01101010]

The trial period has been extended again.  Are they that afraid to see how the subscription numbers turn out once people actually have to start paying for this game?

Hahahahahaha oh wow. I think they know exactly what the subscription numbers are, and don't want to have to admit them to the shareholders.

I get an overwhelming suspicion that SE is banking on the PS3 release for this and as such is now entering the latter stage of beta using PC users as the fluffers. Well, I guess it beats paying to beta - save the box costs for the discs and whatever toys came in the box.

[Shatter]

Wow another free month.  Would be very interesting to see the sub numbers if they hadn't done this considering they are probably dismal in its F2P state.  With the major updates coming Nov/Dec people shouldnt have to pay for this until January at best which is what...4 free months? 

Side note:  I love the FU look on their faces lol

[naum]

And PCGamer has an interview with two of FFXIV's producers.

The tl;dr is:

PCGamer: "Your game is shitty. How shitty is it?"
Hiromichi Tanaka: "So shitty."
Sage Sundi: "The shittiest."

More "graphical technology" than WoW!

PC Gamer: I understand when it’s elements of a landscape, like a tree or rock. But these seem to be whole areas, to an extent that you don’t see in something like WoW.

Hiromichi Tanaka: One of the explanations for that is the size of the parts of the data that we use. Back in the days of FFXI and even WoW, the memory of each part was much less than what we have to use now. These days, because of the graphics, the same size of the parts costs more memory size. If the PC itself has that same size of the- has got larger in the same manner, then we can increase the map in the same way. But the same size of the data is now like ten times more memory size, so that’s really costing the game data size.

PC Gamer: If WoW could do it then, why isn’t it doable now?

Hiromichi Tanaka: One of the reasons why is because of the quality of the graphics – it’s different from WoW. What we’re trying to do in each part is costing more memory. Basically that’s the difference. WoW was designed a few years ago, before FFXI. FFXIV is designed with the latest graphical technology; that’s why it costs that much of memory data.

[Shatter]

PC Gamer: When I met you before, I asked if any other MMOs inspired you during the development process, and you only mentioned FFXI. You also mentioned you hadn’t played World of Warcraft. Do you think any design issues could’ve been avoided if you’d played other MMOs?

Hiromichi Tanaka: We have a big development team. Some people do play WoW, some play Everquest 2, some people play Star Wars Galaxy

Well I feel better now

[Mrbloodworth]

That should end with "We ignored those people".

[Kageru]

Their Player Numbers have a definite trajectory to them. And this is while the game is still effectively free and I assume AFK market alts. The English speaking populations are likely to go sub-critical when they start charging and lose another huge chunk of players.

Really, focus groups just don't enter into it. This was a game where they obviously said "make it pretty, make it look like an MMO, we'll put the gameplay and content in later".

The forums I snagged the link from also suggested the PS3 version has gone gold. Now that they've screwed over the PC gamers they'd be fairly foolish not to use them as paying beta-testers for the "Miracle patch" they are promising.

[Draegan]

I love miracle patches.

[LC]

Maybe they should replace the main theme music with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlrB2MQtOt8

[koro]

Justify your posting in this thread koro!

DO IT NOW OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES.

My girlfriend forgot to cancel her FFXIV preorder and now has three months of this that she doesn't play. And I quit the closed beta after about three hours in sheer disgust.

Therefore I am all of the experts.

[Paelos]

Justify your posting in this thread koro!

DO IT NOW OR FACE THE CONSEQUENCES.

My girlfriend forgot to cancel her FFXIV preorder and now has three months of this that she doesn't play. And I quit the closed beta after about three hours in sheer disgust.

Therefore I am all of the experts.

Sounds good enough for me. Write up a full transcript of your three hours in game to amuse us!

[ghost]

It really fucking irritates me when they say they are extending the "free trial" period.  Fuck that.  People pay for that time. 

[Paelos]

It really fucking irritates me when they say they are extending the "free trial" period.  Fuck that.  People pay for that time. 

What? Are you coming at this from the economist's view of there's no such thing as a free lunch?

[ghost]

It really fucking irritates me when they say they are extending the "free trial" period.  Fuck that.  People pay for that time. 

What? Are you coming at this from the economist's view of there's no such thing as a free lunch?

Hmm.  I guess I am, albeit unintentionally in a nerdrage kind of way.