Here comes the next content patch (3.2)

[Vash]

Yabbut that's Heigan.

If you watch all of that video and his others (part 2 and 3) he also tanks Loatheb, tanks the hatefuls from Patch, 4horsemen, Saph, KT, Maexxna, Gothik, Gluth, and Thadius.  Very creative and his healers are obviously pretty on the ball as well.

Edit: After looking at more of his videos he's also tanked Sarth and Malygos, several Heroics including a timed CoS, and tried some off-tanking in 25man Naxx.  Quite impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFF_zcqPwHM  is a breakdown of his tanking techniques and tips.

[Musashi]

A high damage output tank for bosses with fast attacks would be interesting.  A different kind of healing would be required, and they could get more creative with bosses.  Although unless they change something, warriors with high shield block would obviously be better for that as it stands.

I honestly don't know why all the bosses in this expansion have to be big dumb slow hitting spank fights.

[ezrast]

Now that I've started doing BGs, I have to say I'm not going to like the time limit.  All the best WSG matches I've been in have been longer because the sides have been closely matched.  Short ones just means one side steamrolled the other.

I also won't like the shorter Arathi (even though Alliance on my battlegroup loses that one around 75% of the time), but EotS can DiaF.

This. The WSG change makes no sense to me because it cuts short balanced matches while making 10 vs 6 roflstomp steamrolls take just as long. At least the AB and EotS changes shorten everything proportionally.

You'll get your pvp gear eventually. After that, the change offers no real benefit.

[Paelos]

WSG was a basic, seemingly neat design that had horrible consequences. Capture the flag, hell yeah! Oh wait, matches take forever and make you want to shoot yourself. Hmm, lets bandaid that with flagbearers getting debuffs. Oh wait, it still takes forever. Hmm, let's put in a time limit.

WoW PvP will never be anything more than the devs putting duck tape on a bumper that's scraping the road.

[Ashamanchill]

WoW PvP will never be anything more than the devs putting duck tape on a bumper that's scraping the road.

Lol.  What an awesome phrase.  That is dangerously close to making it into my sig.

[Rendakor]

I've honestly wanted a timer put on WSG since I saw the timer on WAR's CTF map (whose name escapes me at the moment). I feel bad for the people who love the three hour stalemates, but they are not for me. I've been in so many games where both sides are just turtling and holding the opposition's flag that it made the entire bg  . A side effect I predict from this change is that more people will actually try to WIN in WSG now instead of just farming kills.

[Nevermore]

No, what will happen is after the first cap that side will try to turtle until time runs out.

[Rendakor]

Trying to turtle with a 1 cap lead is more 'goal oriented' then zerging around in the middle farming kills.

[Khaldun]

When you get into a bad EoTS, etc., the thing that keeps you going is that it's not going to go on forever, so whatever time you've invested finding out whether you're with n00blets or competent people doesn't go to waste. When you get into a bad WSG, and you really want to see the conclusion if you're farming tokens or rep, etc., it's just horribly, horribly painful. So time limit = great afaik.

[Nevermore]

But the thing is, if you're in a bad WSG it's going to end quickly because the other side is going to stomp you.  I've never been in one were the clearly superior side just refused to cap the flag just so they can farm the other side.  Where it gets long and drawn out is when the sides are pretty equally matched and in my experience there have been some great, fun fights in those cases.

Personally, I've never been in one of these 3 hour marathons you all are describing.  Is that really happening that often and I've just been missing all those somehow?  I know that I don't play those 'hang out in the middle' games and I'm always going for a flag one way or another.  Now WSG will just have the same initial rush to the flag on both sides with both flags being taken and having a stalemate for a while.  It'll then either end in a tie or one side will manage a cap and then completely turtle in their own base until time runs out.  It's going to be much more boring.  There'll be absolutely no incentive to get more than one cap.

[Khaldun]

But the thing is, if you're in a bad WSG it's going to end quickly because the other side is going to stomp you.  I've never been in one were the clearly superior side just refused to cap the flag just so they can farm the other side.  Where it gets long and drawn out is when the sides are pretty equally matched and in my experience there have been some great, fun fights in those cases.

Man. I've had the exact opposite experience. I've been in tons of WSGs where the clearly superior side refuses to cap the flag until they feel they've farmed enough honor/rubbed the terribads' noses in it sufficiently. I remember being up against a premade where they had a phalanx of four fully PvP-geared paladins surrounding a resto druid flag runner and they just kept circling around the midfield laughing, knowing that our mixed-bag group of uncoordinated puggers couldn't do squat to stop them. (Plus they had two rogues and a mage squatting on their own flag.)

[Nevermore]

See, that's never happened to me.  Ever.  What battlegroup are you in?  I want to make sure I never end up in that one.

[Khaldun]

Vengeance.

[Lakov_Sanite]

nevermore clearly doesn't pvp in WSG much.  There's no way you could never have encountered the slew of bullshit half hour or hour long matches that occur on a daily basis.  Arguing against time limits is like arguing against blowjobs.

[K9]

Yeah, I've seen a fair few premades farming the opposition GY. It's been that way particularly since they removed diminishing returns on honour gains.

[Ingmar]

See, that's never happened to me.  Ever.  What battlegroup are you in?  I want to make sure I never end up in that one.

I've had it happen a fair amount on our server. It happens more at lower brackets than at 80, though.

[ezrast]

I have a hard time believing that there are SO MANY games where both teams are full of scrubs who just sit on D. Scrubs who just hang out in the middle, yeah. Scrubs who run into the enemy base with no support, sure (this is usually me!). But too much defense doesn't happen. It'd be like capturing the farm and blacksmith and then just sitting there.

I've been honor farmed exactly once. There are better solutions than a time liimit. Like not rezzing.

I've had a game last over an hour exactly once. It was one of the most tense, fun WSG matches ever. It was also in the 20-29 bracket.

[Vash]

Having done a lot of PvP in WoW (original and every expansion, usually after raiding burns me out or my guild implodes) I have played a ton of 1 hour + WSG matches and seen plenty go 2+ as well.  I have also seen the superior side refuse to cap the 3rd flag until they had their fill of honor kills and gy camping too many times to count.  This is much more prevalent in lowbie brackets when one team is loaded with twinks, but happens often enough at max level to be worth mentioning.

The most brutal type of WSG match though, and the one that makes a timer necessary, is when both sides are mostly clueless and/or have people that refuse to work together, typically (pug vs pug) and one team decides to hunker down in their base.  One team will have 6-7 or more people in their flagroom just waiting to jump whichever unlucky soul tries to grab the flag. Their other 1-3 players will make vein attempts to capture the enemy flag but never get back past midfield with it even if the enemy flagroom is undefended.  The opposing team will futilely try to break this turtle the rest of the game but due to a multitude of reasons fail every time thus locking the game in a perpetual stalemate at whatever the score is when one team decides to turtle.  This is how 2+hour WSG matches are born.

If you can remember as far back as the children's week event and how horrible WSG was with people trying to get that pvp achievement, that is an exact replica of this type of WSG match.  Yes they really do happen on a regular basis even without Blizzard dangling a violet protodrake in front of the achievement hungry masses.

The damage modifier for both teams holding the flag for extended periods has just made this type of stalemate even more popular.  At least with the old-school type of stalemate involving both teams getting the flag carrier back to their base and guarding them, there was a chance for a good rush or mistake on defense and a flag cap could happen.  In a pure turtle stalemate neither flag will ever get past midfield.

[Sjofn]

See, that's never happened to me.  Ever.  What battlegroup are you in?  I want to make sure I never end up in that one.

It's happened to me enough that I do not do WSG anymore. Ever. Fuck WSG.

[Nevermore]

See, that's never happened to me.  Ever.  What battlegroup are you in?  I want to make sure I never end up in that one.

I've had it happen a fair amount on our server. It happens more at lower brackets than at 80, though.

I've only ever done BGs at 80.  Yeah, there's the occasional pre-made but those just steamroll us.  I've never had that farming scenario happen to me.  While I'm not some grizzled vet with thousands of matches under my belt, I've done maybe 50 or so just in the past couple weeks.  A few end up lasting upwards of an hour but that's because neither side could legitimately cap the flags fast.  There was a lot of fighting over the flags in those matches, so it's not like the flag carriers were standing around unmolested while Fight Club was going on in the middle.

[ezrast]

It's happened to me enough that I do not do WSG anymore. Ever. Fuck WSG.

Will knowing that you can "only" get honor farmed in 20-minute increments bring you back?

[Ashamanchill]

WoW: The Alliance flag was picked up by Douchebag.
Me: Oh good, maybe this match will end now.
WoW: The Horde flag has been picked up by Ipwnnoobs.
Me: Puches monitor.

This time limit is a good thing.

[Ingmar]

It's happened to me enough that I do not do WSG anymore. Ever. Fuck WSG.

Will knowing that you can "only" get honor farmed in 20-minute increments bring you back?

It will certainly bring me back. It will make grabbing the WSG tokens for the 'turn in 1 of every token' quest worthwhile.

[Sjofn]

It's happened to me enough that I do not do WSG anymore. Ever. Fuck WSG.

Will knowing that you can "only" get honor farmed in 20-minute increments bring you back?

It will make me roughly a zillion times more likely to go to WSG, yes.

[ezrast]

Ashamanchill: What point are you trying to illustrate? If it's a totally uneven match, then Ipwnnoobs will keep the flag for all of 20 seconds. If it's not, then you've got a good fight on your hands.

Ingmar: But will you play it because it's fun, or to grind honor? If you don't enjoy battlegrounds, why are you farming PvP gear?

I know at this point we're mostly talking past each other, but I really think you all just hate WSG for what it is, and a time limit isn't going to change that.

[Ingmar]

Ashamanchill: What point are you trying to illustrate? If it's a totally uneven match, then Ipwnnoobs will keep the flag for all of 20 seconds. If it's not, then you've got a good fight on your hands.

Ingmar: But will you play it because it's fun, or to grind honor? If you don't enjoy battlegrounds, why are you farming PvP gear?

I know at this point we're mostly talking past each other, but I really think you all just hate WSG for what it is, and a time limit isn't going to change that.

Not liking WSG is not at all the same thing as not liking battlegrounds. I very much enjoy Strand of the Ancients, for example. I also do arena, but I'm not good enough to buy the items that can be bought with only arena points, so I need honor for that. Being able to grab a WSG token (or 3) in just 20 minutes, predictably, is a big help there.

EDIT: And a lot of the time, the scenario Ashamanchill describes does not end in a 'good fight', it ends with the flag carriers plus one healer each standing around on their respective roofs while the rest of the randoms zerg each other in the middle.

[ezrast]

Ingmar: But will you play it because it's fun, or to grind honor? If you don't enjoy battlegrounds, why are you farming PvP gear?

Not liking WSG is not at all the same thing as not liking battlegrounds.

Point taken. I guess I was being deliberately obtuse there.

EDIT: And a lot of the time, the scenario Ashamanchill describes does not end in a 'good fight', it ends with the flag carriers plus one healer each standing around on their respective roofs while the rest of the randoms zerg each other in the middle.

Right, but this is the sort of thing a time limit doesn't actually fix. It just mitigates the damage by cutting the match short. I guess the change is good for people who hate WSG in its current state, and bad for people who like it. The thing that irks me is that it won't actually make anyone who hates WSG change their mind; it will just make it tolerable enough to grind marks until you get your pvp gear and then never queue again.

Oh well. I may not be subbed long enough to see the change anyways.

[Nevermore]

I guess the change is good for people who hate WSG in its current state, and bad for people who like it. The thing that irks me is that it won't actually make anyone who hates WSG change their mind; it will just make it tolerable enough to grind marks until you get your pvp gear and then never queue again.

I have to agree with that.  It's not going to make the BG more fun, just easier to grind.

[Ingmar]

I guess the change is good for people who hate WSG in its current state, and bad for people who like it. The thing that irks me is that it won't actually make anyone who hates WSG change their mind; it will just make it tolerable enough to grind marks until you get your pvp gear and then never queue again.

I have to agree with that.  It's not going to make the BG more fun, just easier to grind.

I actually think it might be more fun, personally. Having the time limit there adds an element of tension that was otherwise not really present.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I never disliked WSG itself, it was always -Always- the hour long matches that pissed me off about it.  Once I've invested over 20min on something I like to see it finished one way or the other but I also don't want to spend an hour or two in a battleground, I just don't have all night to screw around like that.

So what are my options? I can either A, stick it out for god knows how long and try to be a good soldier or B. Quit after approx 30min for no tokem, no end of game bonus and a paltry amount of honor. 

Both options for WSG stink and even if this doesn't happen every match, it happens enough to put me off of the whole damn thing, even when I like the idea of the BG itself.

[Paelos]

No BG should ever be longer than 20 minutes in my book. Beyond that timeframe I start to clock-watch and get bored. Then again, I don't like WoW PvP at all anymore after the arena rating tie-ins to loot, so nothing will get me to do BGs ever again while that restriction is active.

[K9]

You know what would be grand, some different maps. I would do CTF more if it could be in different places. Hell, they could even all use the WSG tileset and I'd be happier. Blizz did this so well with starcraft, with a host of balanced mirror maps. Why they can't just re-do a few different WSG, or AB templates baffles me.

[Ashamanchill]

You know what would be grand, some different maps. I would do CTF more if it could be in different places. Hell, they could even all use the WSG tileset and I'd be happier. Blizz did this so well with starcraft, with a host of balanced mirror maps. Why they can't just re-do a few different WSG, or AB templates baffles me.

That would be pretty ballin.  Fuck, I would even settle for a poor bandaid solution for this, and jam CTF onto the Arathi Basin man, Strand of the Ancients et al.  Only provided the new time limit stays in of course 

[K9]

CTF between Farm and Stables would be fun for sure.

[Fordel]

Here is what happens in like half the WSG's I get into.


We get their flag
They get ours


Now both sides are unable to take their own flag BACK to cap. Either they 'recover' it, but needed so many forward that the other team just takes it from the stand right away, or they fail to ever kill the other FC due to 5 Disc/Resto all healing the 50k HP uludar geared DK or whatever.


This lasts till the "haha now the FC will die for sure" debuff kicks in, then both FC's die virtually simultaneously and both flags are back on the stands and both teams just pick them back up and back to the beginning.


The game only ends because enough people get annoyed and leave and are replaced by keyboard turning enhance shamans that think ghostwolf = victoel.