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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: Pew pew pew, lets just ignore the GCD 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Pew pew pew, lets just ignore the GCD  (Read 14351 times)
Redgiant
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Reply #35 on: June 10, 2009, 04:29:17 PM

...
The game depends on there always being an equal and opposite number of players.  If they lose much more I'm sure there is a tipping point like what happened to DAoC.  It's not like a PvE game, like DDO, where you still get on with a few thousand subs while people tool around with the content.  There has to be RvR to keep people engaged.  Also, DDO as a low pop game just went free with micropayments, or it will soon.  Don't see WAR being able to do that.

2-sided RVR is always a razor's edge for imbalance to happen.

3-sided RvR isn't immune by any means, but it does have a buffer against imbalance more than 2-sided games, assuming of course that there is sufficient in-game support for the 3-way drift to make a difference.

In DAoC, I had always hoped they would have allowed formal cross-realm allying when any one side got 5 or 6 relics. On Nimue, you might see Hibs and Albs as friendlies in the Frontier (but never, say, in DF), assuming Mid had all the relics.

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Fordel
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Reply #36 on: June 10, 2009, 06:08:35 PM

That's just a 2 side war again though.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Ingmar
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Reply #37 on: June 10, 2009, 06:23:05 PM

Yeah, the problem with the 'if one side gets ahead the other two can team up until they bring them back down' theory is that population imbalances don't correct themselves once the big side loses a couple fights. Once you get to a 2 vs 1 situation you are probably stuck there.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
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March
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Reply #38 on: June 10, 2009, 08:51:41 PM

Yeah, the problem with the 'if one side gets ahead the other two can team up until they bring them back down' theory is that population imbalances don't correct themselves once the big side loses a couple fights. Once you get to a 2 vs 1 situation you are probably stuck there.
True, but then the game doesn't simply break and ooze brain goo all over either.

It was the first thing I noticed when I got in to the early beta... somehow it just didn't feel right.  It felt like Mythic took a shortcut because it would be (admittedly) much easier to keep track of and balance.

Of course, take away the magic sauce, and no one plays... that's about as easy to balance as there is: 0 = 0.

Regarding the point that when two sides ally to fight the third it is still a one front war... again, true... but a single front that could (and regularly did) erupt into a multi-front war at very inopportune moments... hence the fun.  Besides, cross-faction alliances were *never* universally observed, and the breaking of them in the frontiers led to much drama even within factions.  Bonus Drama.
Draegan
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Reply #39 on: June 11, 2009, 02:36:36 PM

The game wasn't right for the beginning.  You don't have 3 sets of 1v1.  Good elves vs. Bad Elves.  Chaos vs. Empire etc.

No one felt they belonged to something it was just different boards to play on.  Different tile sets.

It should of been empire vs. chaos at the start and thats it (or any of the other pairings).  Throw in a third side for bonus money.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #40 on: June 11, 2009, 03:14:07 PM

The game wasn't right for the beginning.  You don't have 3 sets of 1v1.  Good elves vs. Bad Elves.  Chaos vs. Empire etc.

No one felt they belonged to something it was just different boards to play on.  Different tile sets.

It should of been empire vs. chaos at the start and thats it (or any of the other pairings).  Throw in a third side for bonus money.
Immersion?  That's the big problem of WAR?  That's just silly.

"Me am play gods"
March
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Reply #41 on: June 11, 2009, 03:43:51 PM

That's the thing with WaR... its a prism of wrong.

You start at failed endgame and with just the tiniest twist of your wrist, the prism reflects a new and beautiful wrong... next thing you know, we're in T1 newbie areas wondering how they could possibly have fucked up immersion.
Draegan
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Reply #42 on: June 18, 2009, 02:08:11 PM

The game wasn't right for the beginning.  You don't have 3 sets of 1v1.  Good elves vs. Bad Elves.  Chaos vs. Empire etc.

No one felt they belonged to something it was just different boards to play on.  Different tile sets.

It should of been empire vs. chaos at the start and thats it (or any of the other pairings).  Throw in a third side for bonus money.
Immersion?  That's the big problem of WAR?  That's just silly.

Nothing to do with immersion and roleplaying but team identification.  They have three sets of fights going on.  Empire vs. Chaos, Good Elves vs. Bad Elves and Greens vs. Dwarves. But because they all co-mingle there is no sense of game or fight, just a sense of big battlegrounds to fight in.  The sense of world is gone.
Soulflame
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Reply #43 on: June 19, 2009, 09:32:45 AM

There are good elves?  Seriously?  I must have missed them.  Is there a third elf faction that is actually good?
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #44 on: June 19, 2009, 11:14:56 AM

There are good elves?  Seriously?  I must have missed them.  Is there a third elf faction that is actually good?

In warhammer lore no one is good.

In warhammer the MMO there is a definite good side/bad side.

It's really a failing of the game to portray the sides accurately but when I played alliance/order  all I could see was typical fantasy goody two shoes races being threatened by those evil mean chaos people!

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
rattran
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Unreasonable


Reply #45 on: June 19, 2009, 12:43:14 PM

The dark elves are good, just ask them.

But yeah, they dumped everything in the Warhammer lore that made it fun.
01101010
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Reply #46 on: June 19, 2009, 02:49:36 PM

There are good elves?  Seriously?  I must have missed them.  Is there a third elf faction that is actually good?

In warhammer lore no one is good.

In warhammer the MMO there is a definite good side/bad side.

It's really a failing of the game to portray the sides accurately but when I played alliance/order  all I could see was typical fantasy goody two shoes races being threatened by those evil mean chaos people!

Correct me if i am wrong, but isn't this the area of the game that falls under the creative director? Taking the lore of Warhammer from Games Workshop and guiding it lovingly into the gaping maw of internet gaming/MMOdom? If that is so, I wonder what (who) went wrong?  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Trippy
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Reply #47 on: June 19, 2009, 05:15:42 PM

The Order/Destruction split is not an MMO invention. This is what GW does in its tabletop game with its yearly global campaigns (special tournaments where the players determine the outcome of a storyline) and also what the WarCry (WHFB) CCG does.
Kageru
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Reply #48 on: June 19, 2009, 06:19:39 PM

In warhammer lore no one is good.

I don't see how that can work. Chaos is meant to be constructed from the essence of all negative emotions (lust, hate, rot, disruption) and seeks to corrupt everything in the world to debased forms of itself and will with pleasure exterminate anyone who gets in its way. While morality is relative that's probably as close to "not good" as we are going to get.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #49 on: June 19, 2009, 06:55:31 PM

godwinning this thread but...

if the devil came to earth in 1940 and hitler helped fight him, would hitler be considered a 'good' guy?  because that's essentially warhammer lore.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Delmania
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Reply #50 on: June 19, 2009, 07:24:57 PM

In warhammer lore no one is good.

I don't see how that can work. Chaos is meant to be constructed from the essence of all negative emotions (lust, hate, rot, disruption) and seeks to corrupt everything in the world to debased forms of itself and will with pleasure exterminate anyone who gets in its way. While morality is relative that's probably as close to "not good" as we are going to get.


High Elves are arrogant.
Dwarves are greedy.
The Empire is a totalitarian state.
Raven host are folllowers of Tzeentch, who is the god of change, and of hope.
Darks Elves are hedonists, yes, but they just another shade of high elves.
Orks are neither good nor evil, they live for battle. 

Ironically in 40k, orks are the good guys.

Simond
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Reply #51 on: June 20, 2009, 04:51:47 AM

In warhammer lore no one is good.

I don't see how that can work. Chaos is meant to be constructed from the essence of all negative emotions (lust, hate, rot, disruption) and seeks to corrupt everything in the world to debased forms of itself and will with pleasure exterminate anyone who gets in its way. While morality is relative that's probably as close to "not good" as we are going to get.
Tzeentch is the god of Hope, Khorne is the god of Valour, Nurgle is the god of Peace, and Slaanesh the god(ess) of Love.
From a certain point of view.  awesome, for real

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Tannhauser
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Reply #52 on: June 20, 2009, 06:54:29 AM

In warhammer lore no one is good.

I don't see how that can work. Chaos is meant to be constructed from the essence of all negative emotions (lust, hate, rot, disruption) and seeks to corrupt everything in the world to debased forms of itself and will with pleasure exterminate anyone who gets in its way. While morality is relative that's probably as close to "not good" as we are going to get.
Tzeentch is the god of Hope, Khorne is the god of Valour, Nurgle is the god of Peace, and Slaanesh the god(ess) of Love.
From a certain point of view.  awesome, for real

Hmm my Witch Hunter nose detects the subtle scents of Chaos.  This whole thread must be purged!
rattran
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Unreasonable


Reply #53 on: June 20, 2009, 10:18:53 AM

The Horned Rat is the only good deity. Making the world a safer place for Skaven.

And the Slaan weren't evil, they just happened to have had a small accident with a gate at the North Pole to make it the Chaos Wastes.
Sir T
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Reply #54 on: June 20, 2009, 05:00:07 PM

In warhammer lore no one is good.

I don't see how that can work. Chaos is meant to be constructed from the essence of all negative emotions (lust, hate, rot, disruption) and seeks to corrupt everything in the world to debased forms of itself and will with pleasure exterminate anyone who gets in its way. While morality is relative that's probably as close to "not good" as we are going to get.


Wrong actually. In the original lore, the stuff poaring out of the chaos is unrestricted change. It is actually fairly neutral, but touching it will turn you into a seething blob of jelly as the laws of form native to our world dont exist in the warp. Its poisonous, but not evil.

There were actually quite a lot of Chaos gods, not just the big 4. The Chaos gods are aspects of warp entities that god trapped inside the world after the accident. There were also Gods of Order that came from the warp, such as Illuminatas, god of light and stillness, and Solkan, the Lord of Vengeance and Righteous Retribution. These are distinkt from the Mortal gods such as Sigmar, Khaine and Isha, that existed in the world before the warp accident.

This is the sort of stuff that Games Workshop chopped off their lore to simplify the whole thing and sell overpriced miniatures. It only exists now in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, a far more rich setting than the "official" games workshop garbage. Its also why Game workshop was desperate to get back the rights to WHFRP, as the lore it was based on was far far better and it showed up GWs crappy recent attempts at lore writing. The Brettonians, for example, were fare more interesting than the crappy half baked Arthurian rubbish that GW came out with in recent tabletop editions.

This illustrates why having anyone from GW as creative director for a game means you might as well burn a couple of million as firewood and save yourself the grief.

Be principled, but not too principled.
HaemishM
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Reply #55 on: June 22, 2009, 11:02:22 AM

/ geekgasm on aisle five. Clean up on aisle five!  awesome, for real

brake 7
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Reply #56 on: June 23, 2009, 03:21:39 AM

This is the sort of stuff that Games Workshop chopped off their lore to simplify the whole thing and sell overpriced miniatures. It only exists now in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, a far more rich setting than the "official" games workshop garbage. Its also why Game workshop was desperate to get back the rights to WHFRP, as the lore it was based on was far far better and it showed up GWs crappy recent attempts at lore writing. The Brettonians, for example, were fare more interesting than the crappy half baked Arthurian rubbish that GW came out with in recent tabletop editions.

WTB a version of Death on the Reik using the Oblivion engine. In fact that entire campaign apart from the last episode was amazing.

This illustrates why having anyone from GW as creative director for a game means you might as well burn a couple of million as firewood and save yourself the grief.

I always thought Warhammer was too good to leave in the hands of GW, they don't have the talent to do the setting justice most of the time.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #57 on: June 23, 2009, 03:46:48 AM

Its also why Game workshop was desperate to get back the rights to WHFRP
...
This illustrates why having anyone from GW as creative director for a game means you might as well burn a couple of million as firewood and save yourself the grief.

Two things, I'm not sure GW ever lost the rights to WHFRP, more like they saw a way to make some cash, I don't think "desperate" is the word more like "disinterest".

Also I'm not sure Paul ever directly worked for GW, but that's more like a minor quibble, not something I've bothered to check.

Edit Also 1st edition WFB was released at least a few years before WHFRP, so they didn't shorten the lore for WFB but rather lengthened it for the Roleplay game.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 03:52:51 AM by Arthur_Parker »
IainC
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Reply #58 on: June 23, 2009, 03:58:38 AM

This is the sort of stuff that Games Workshop chopped off their lore to simplify the whole thing and sell overpriced miniatures. It only exists now in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, a far more rich setting than the "official" games workshop garbage. Its also why Game workshop was desperate to get back the rights to WHFRP, as the lore it was based on was far far better and it showed up GWs crappy recent attempts at lore writing. The Brettonians, for example, were fare more interesting than the crappy half baked Arthurian rubbish that GW came out with in recent tabletop editions.

Here's the thing. Warhammer Fantasy Battles doesn't encompass the lore, the army books aren't the definitive set of background resources. WHFRP again is just a part of the whole. WFB is the Warhammer world explained through the context of a miniatures wargame, it isn't and shouldn't be an attempt to define the entire setting. Players who are interested in the deeper lore can find that through the background books, BL novels, WHFRP supplements etc. For the purposes of understanding the context of the wargame however the lore portrayed in the army books and the rulebooks are intended as a general guide and not the authoritative versions.

Incidentally GW never gave up the rights to WHFRP, it was licenced to Hogshead for a few years but the rights always remained with GW. FF are similarly limited in their licence. GW will never give up control of their settings to a third party.

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Sir T
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Reply #59 on: June 23, 2009, 07:54:54 AM

Edit Also 1st edition WFB was released at least a few years before WHFRP, so they didn't shorten the lore for WFB but rather lengthened it for the Roleplay game.

Yeah but first ed WHFB was a HELLL of a lot different than the modern game, both in lore and gameplay.

Be principled, but not too principled.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #60 on: June 23, 2009, 03:17:52 PM

What IainC said, also 2nd edition WFB came out before WHFRP, or even 3rd edition hardback just the year after.  They didn't chop the lore to sell overpriced miniatures, selling overpriced miniatures was the core business pretty much the whole time (excluding the early D&D import days).

There's also the Realm of Chaos expansion

Quote
Realm of Chaos is a two-volume publication by Games Workshop concerning the forces of Chaos. The hardback books contain background material and rules for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st edition), Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader and Warhammer Fantasy Battle (3rd edition).

[/nerd]
Sheepherder
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Reply #61 on: June 24, 2009, 03:02:51 AM

WTB a version of Death on the Reik using the Oblivion engine. In fact that entire campaign apart from the last episode was amazing.

If you're referring to The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion then it is in fact the same engine used for Warhammer Online.
Special J
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Reply #62 on: June 24, 2009, 07:53:06 AM

What IainC said, also 2nd edition WFB came out before WHFRP, or even 3rd edition hardback just the year after.  They didn't chop the lore to sell overpriced miniatures, selling overpriced miniatures was the core business pretty much the whole time (excluding the early D&D import days).

There's also the Realm of Chaos expansion

Quote
Realm of Chaos is a two-volume publication by Games Workshop concerning the forces of Chaos. The hardback books contain background material and rules for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (1st edition), Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader and Warhammer Fantasy Battle (3rd edition).

[/nerd]

I still have the Slaves to Darkness book.  Man has Chaos ever been sanitized when you compare it to that book.

[/nerd]
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