Richard Bartle on MMO design (IMGDC 09)

[Valmorian]

Even the WoW devs were surprised that players were so gung-ho over haircuts. Haircuts!

Gee, go figure, one of the only things I can customize on my character to be the way I want it and it doesn't affect my character's effectiveness.  That WoW hasn't implemented the "Costume armor" features from EQ2 and LOTRO baffles me.  For SO many people these games are basically dress-up games, and forcing me to use a weapon/armor model I HATE to have my character be competent in your game makes my attachment to it so much less.

As an example, I want my Paladin to be in White Plate armor.  If I could have the Alabaster Plate set I had in my 50's, with a sword and shield that didn't look like a drunk barbarian threw them away, I'd be happy as could be.  But I can't.  At least, not if I want to be able to actually fight anything at level 80.

It's stupid, and Blizzard seems blind to it.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't think they can add a costume system to Wow, color, style, and profile are part of the itemization.

[Ratman_tf]

Take away the quest trackers that hold your hand to the conclusion of the quest, spell timer mods, pot timer mods, hate meter mods, and whatever else, and WoW ain't so easy.  It, honestly, can be pretty freakin' brutal when it wants to be.  I swear, look at some of the mod'd UI templates and screenshots of what people do their UI and it's not even a game.  You might see a 2"x2" square of the action, and that's IT. 

Then it just turns into Dance Dance Revolution with a keyboard.

I won't heal in a group or raid without Grid anymore. I used to use the default raid UI, but have blocked the memory out with copious amounts of pills and alcohol.

[Valmorian]

I don't think they can add a costume system to Wow, color, style, and profile are part of the itemization.

You're saying they couldn't display the graphic from an item while applying the stats of a second one?  Why the hell not?  LOTRO and EQ2 manage it just fine.

[Ratman_tf]

UnSub: Lots of hardcore MMO gamers are arguing against simplifying gameplay, not for it. Making things more driven by player skill, i.e. ability to micromanage 400 different buttons.

These people should try some hardcore 'casual' games. Micromanaging two dozen chickens and cows to harvest eggs and milk! 

Back to UI. I have run with WoW's default UI for years. When I started raiding, I looked into stuff like Grid and Pallypower, to make tasks easier. But I still have the default hotbar, windows, etc... never had a problem with them. Never understood the rage against it, since every "better" modded WoW UI I've seen didn't actually look any better to me.

[Mrbloodworth]

I don't think they can add a costume system to Wow, color, style, and profile are part of the itemization.

You're saying they couldn't display the graphic from an item while applying the stats of a second one?  Why the hell not?  LOTRO and EQ2 manage it just fine.

I'm saying that part of the carrot and consideration for the "value" of an item when graded as a reward, is the color, style, and changes to your players profile (out line shape).

[Tarami]

Blizzard has said it's a principal decision not to add costume functionality in WoW. No, I can't quote that. Probably due to what Bloodworth mentioned.

Now, which derail were we discussing?

[Khaldun]

Let me ask this.

If, for example, some of these observations about UI are so obvious and the preferable alternatives so desirable, why do we have what we have instead?

Your menu of options, broadly speaking:

a) Developers are incompetent asshats and you are not. Pleasing as this doubtless sounds to folks round here, it actually opens up more questions than it resolves. Such as: why are they developers and you not? How does a viable industry stay alive with nothing but asshats? (I'm not saying that's impossible, mind you: there are a number of real-world industries that are viable largely because they have a structural chokehold on some part of the business, and can afford to be chockablock with asshattery as a result.) What makes the developers incompetent asshats: personality, bad training, poor incentives, etc.?

or

2) Because of some aspect of the history of MMOGs as a form. In which case it's maybe not so easy to just walk into the room with Wile E. Coyote Super-Genius improvements, whether you're Richard Bartle or the folks hanging around here, and get things changed. Even if someone hands you $50 million. Anybody who has been in charge of a complex project knows that precedent, inertia, and practicality can override the best wishes and ideas even when there's general consensus on those ideas.

or

3) Because the customers are sheep and want bad UI or other bad things, no matter how much developers would like it to be different. Also opens up a lot of questions.

[Valmorian]

I'm saying that part of the carrot and consideration for the "value" of an item when graded as a reward, is the color, style, and changes to your players profile (out line shape).

EASILY rectified by only allowing players to use models they have acquired on items that they get.  My concern isn't that I want to be able to use the awesome graphics on some piece of uber loot, it's more "why would I want to upgrade to that when it looks like ass?  Oh yeah, because if I don't my ability to play the game suffers".

Screw that, I just went back to City of Heroes, where the customization is the only thing they DID get right.

[tmp]

I'm saying that part of the carrot and consideration for the "value" of an item when graded as a reward, is the color, style, and changes to your players profile (out line shape).

That part of the carrot only works for the player if they happen to share aesthetic preference with the designer. When they don't, the carrot becomes a stick and actually reduces perceived value of the item.

Given this, there's very little point in imposing it on the player against their preference. Technical difficulty of implementation and/or maybe PvP concerns are more reasonable arguments but the "it's part of reward"? Not so much, imo.

[Merusk]

Blizzard has said it's a principal decision not to add costume functionality in WoW. No, I can't quote that. Probably due to what Bloodworth mentioned.

You're correct.  It's the same reason they won't give a method to turn shoulders off, it's seen by Blizzard as an essential part of the meta game.

[Mrbloodworth]

Let me ask this.

If, for example, some of these observations about UI are so obvious and the preferable alternatives so desirable, why do we have what we have instead?

Your menu of options, broadly speaking:

a) Developers are incompetent asshats and you are not. Pleasing as this doubtless sounds to folks round here, it actually opens up more questions than it resolves. Such as: why are they developers and you not? How does a viable industry stay alive with nothing but asshats? (I'm not saying that's impossible, mind you: there are a number of real-world industries that are viable largely because they have a structural chokehold on some part of the business, and can afford to be chockablock with asshattery as a result.) What makes the developers incompetent asshats: personality, bad training, poor incentives, etc.?

or

2) Because of some aspect of the history of MMOGs as a form. In which case it's maybe not so easy to just walk into the room with Wile E. Coyote Super-Genius improvements, whether you're Richard Bartle or the folks hanging around here, and get things changed. Even if someone hands you $50 million. Anybody who has been in charge of a complex project knows that precedent, inertia, and practicality can override the best wishes and ideas even when there's general consensus on those ideas.

or

3) Because the customers are sheep and want bad UI or other bad things, no matter how much developers would like it to be different. Also opens up a lot of questions.

How many MMO's have fully moddable, scriptable UI's?

[Valmorian]

Blizzard has said it's a principal decision not to add costume functionality in WoW. No, I can't quote that. Probably due to what Bloodworth mentioned.

You're correct.  It's the same reason they won't give a method to turn shoulders off, it's seen by Blizzard as an essential part of the meta game.

Which part of the meta game, exactly?  Bragging rights?  That would be unaffected.  What else would there be?

[Vash]

Let me ask this.

If, for example, some of these observations about UI are so obvious and the preferable alternatives so desirable, why do we have what we have instead?

There are several reasons.

Keeping you default UI simple, archaic even, and passing the baton over to mods/addons for customization is an efficient and cheap cop-out that even the industry behemoth famed for it's ability to "polish" is willing to undertake.

While the UI is an important aspect of a game, it's nowhere near as important as things like actual gameplay, content, and systems.  Since it's lower on the totem pole and MMO's are never really finished....  the previous reason tends to be an easy route to take.

If you don't have any serious competition, or your competition isn't setting new standards in the UI department, there's no incentive to spend resources on improving your UI.  Spending resources on it or having your paying customers do it for free in their spare time isn't really a tough decision.

The complaint from me is more that many developers are willing to just throw a UI together with limited customization (often just a rehash of previous MMO's with a few slight changes/additions), then leave the rest to the mods/addons instead of actually providing significant customization options.

It may be efficient, cheap, and practically the industry standard (not saying much), but that doesn't mean we have to like it.

[SnakeCharmer]

UI directly affects gameplay; gameplay dictates your UI.  Crap UI (or even the GUI) drags down what *could* be stellar gameplay if the controls and feedback mechanisms aren't intuative and don't match what/how the designers want the game to be played.

[Litigator]

I always felt that for PvP games there is something to be said for keeping a consistent, relatively uniform UI for everyone.  It's your platform for competing and taken in that context a lot of user created UI mods are flat out cheating.  I expect I'm in the minority here though.

Everyone is getting the same information from the server, how someone prefers this information be displayed doesn't seem like a competitive issue at all (I'm talking health bars, action bars, buffs/debuffs, not seeing through walls/terrain/stealth).  If someone likes different style or different size font, wants their health displayed in position Y instead of X, etc. etc. I don't see the big deal.

It only becomes an issue when the default UI is so bad at presenting this information that people who go out of their way to make it easy to see and interpret have an advantage over those who don't.

WoW arena PvP requires the ability to quickly target enemy characters, and switch from one to another (for example to counterspell a heal while you are burning your target).  The WoW UI supports this by either using a console command /target [playername], by clicking on the enemy player, by tab-targetting (in which case you might target a pet or a totem or something), or by setting the other character as your focus.

Most remotely decent players get some kind of targeting mod that throws the names of the players in a box on your UI that you can click to target them.  These mods make it much easier to execute target switches and to use crowd control on one target while burning another.

I don't think these mods are permitted on the tournament server, but they're not considered cheating by the community.  So UI mods do more than change the way information is presented. 

[Fordel]

The day Blizzard makes a costume tab in WoW, is the day you see 500, 40 man paladin raids for BWL and MC.

[Nebu]

Being able to turn off shoulderpad art in WoW would be a fine start. 

EQ2 had a brilliant idea with the appearance tab.  I'm surprised that it isn't an integral part of every MMO released after. 

[Fordel]

Being able to turn off shoulderpad art in WoW would be a fine start. 

EQ2 had a brilliant idea with the appearance tab.  I'm surprised that it isn't an integral part of every MMO released after. 

Isn't it? Pretty much every non-WoW MMO that isn't going to fade away in 3-6 months has some variation of the appearance or costume tab at this point.

[Nebu]

I haven't seen it in another MMO beyond LotRO and CoX.  Did I miss a few?

[Vash]

WoW arena PvP requires the ability to quickly target enemy characters, and switch from one to another (for example to counterspell a heal while you are burning your target).  The WoW UI supports this by either using a console command /target [playername], by clicking on the enemy player, by tab-targetting (in which case you might target a pet or a totem or something), or by setting the other character as your focus.

Most remotely decent players get some kind of targeting mod that throws the names of the players in a box on your UI that you can click to target them.  These mods make it much easier to execute target switches and to use crowd control on one target while burning another.

I don't think these mods are permitted on the tournament server, but they're not considered cheating by the community.  So UI mods do more than change the way information is presented. 

It's possible to do all of that with just setting a focus target and macro's without any sort of addon, could even have it all in one button with a shift/crtl/alt modifier for using the selected spell against your focus instead of your current target.  Mods like proximo and gladius just let people click a portrait/bar instead of searching through forums to find an advanced macro or creating an advanced macro themselves.  Hardcore PvPers have used these kinds of macros since Season 1, these addons just more or less even the playing field a small bit between them and the average joe who just wants to click a bar to swap targets in my eyes.

[tmp]

I haven't seen it in another MMO beyond LotRO and CoX.  Did I miss a few?

Supposedly Aion provides variation of that, where you can combine stats of one item with appearance of another. The "appearance" item is destroyed in the process though, so it's bit more limited by the sound of it.

[Draegan]

Runes of Magic and Spellborn allow you to convert your awesome stat items into the better looking models.

[Ratman_tf]

I haven't seen it in another MMO beyond LotRO and CoX.  Did I miss a few?

Anarchy Online.

[UnSub]

Blizzard has said it's a principal decision not to add costume functionality in WoW. No, I can't quote that. Probably due to what Bloodworth mentioned.

You're correct.  It's the same reason they won't give a method to turn shoulders off, it's seen by Blizzard as an essential part of the meta game.

Which part of the meta game, exactly?  Bragging rights?  That would be unaffected.  What else would there be?

If you have a game with high-end raiders developing it, being able to show off that you are a high-end player is part of the thinking. They might understand the request to be able to divorce stats from appearance, but it doesn't make sense to them - it is a completely different mindset. It also throws off PvP, where the ability to recognise equipment at a glance gives advanced players an edge - if appearance doesn't link to ability, it makes PvP more random.

[tmp]

It also throws off PvP, where the ability to recognise equipment at a glance gives advanced players an edge - if appearance doesn't link to ability, it makes PvP more random.

Though this can be actually a good thing depending how one looks at it -- the ability to deceive the opponent increases amount of options.

[UnSub]

I don't agree with the reasons against costume customisation, but it is the arguments I believe people would use against WoW providing such a system, especially internally.

[Nebu]

It also throws off PvP, where the ability to recognise equipment at a glance gives advanced players an edge - if appearance doesn't link to ability, it makes PvP more random.

The PvP is already doomed to failure if you're concerned with the gear.  You should be fighting the player behind the character, not the gear. 

[Kail]

It also throws off PvP, where the ability to recognise equipment at a glance gives advanced players an edge - if appearance doesn't link to ability, it makes PvP more random.

It doesn't do this very well, though.  Looking at a Paladin's gear, for example, you can get a rough idea of his gear's power level, but not what he can actually do.  Holy gear for a certain tier is visually identical to protection gear and retribution gear, save for the weapon type the paladin is likely to be carrying(which I suspect is outside the scope of the argument here).  In terms of gameplay, THAT is the information you'd want to know, not "is his crit chance 23 or 28 percent."

[Nebu]

It doesn't do this very well, though.  Looking at a Paladin's gear, for example, you can get a rough idea of his gear's power level, but not what he can actually do.  Holy gear for a certain tier is visually identical to protection gear and retribution gear, save for the weapon type the paladin is likely to be carrying(which I suspect is outside the scope of the argument here).  In terms of gameplay, THAT is the information you'd want to know, not "is his crit chance 23 or 28 percent."

WoW is not and should not be used as an example of a PvP MMO.  It's a PvE MMO with PvP as a feature. 

[Ratman_tf]

It also throws off PvP, where the ability to recognise equipment at a glance gives advanced players an edge - if appearance doesn't link to ability, it makes PvP more random.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI0QMtl1X_8

[Tarami]

You can simply disable the costumes if you enter PvP combat, like LotRO does. I get Blizzard's point, but at the same time I don't.

The thing is, most people who mod their UI, do so because the default UI is getting in their way and making the game less enjoyable.

No, they don't. They mod their UI to make it easier to play. See: Carbonite, Omen, totem managers et.c. et.c.

People want the game to be easier (giving the impression they've improved) first and foremost. That's what gets their jollies off. Secondly they want it to be comfortable to play. But comfortable to play without changing the gameplay really just leaves changing font sizes and moving the UI elements to compensate for all the screen sizes and sight impairments people might have. I agree all games should have this, even WoW which I've defended earlier - but it's more a question of accessibility than customizability. It's a way to work around some kind of discrepancy on your end, whether that be playing in 800x600 (too low) or 1920x1080 (too high) or wanting to play without having to wear your glasses. This is something I, too, fully appriciate and support.

The thing is, if we absurdly assume WoW had no mods, we'd see that raids we have today would be easier. Not necessarily simpler, just less fickle. Mods have made raids, and certain gameplay elements, hard, because historically mods made those specific elements easy or easier. For example, Decursive made Lucifron easy because the difficulty of him was precisely that, decursing. Mods have spawned a need for mods, it a catch 22 by now. Some auction mods completely remove the need of any critical thinking or scrutinizing when playing the commerce metagame.

It's a situation that doesn't humour me (especially as an old and then enthusiastic Quake-player) and back when I stopped raiding, it was during a paradigm shift in my raid group; healers were now supposed to have addons that displayed any outgoing heals from other healers, tanks and DPS were to have threat meters and so on. It was sold under the assumption that it would make us perform better in raids.

I guess my point is this - UI, bad or good or self-playing, is part of the game experience. A bad UI may mean a bad game, so be it. But when people clamour about games having bad UIs, it's many times self-inflicted difficulty. Maybe it's supposed to be a little harder than you think, maybe the game content was designed with the UI you're using today in mind and you're just not good enough. The UI may objectively suck, then truly bitch about it. Most UIs do not objectively suck, however. Most do something rather well.

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PS.
As a sidenote, LotRO has a UI that can be rearranged but not scripted. I've many times thought, "this would make a great feature," but since I can't fix it, I don't really mind. All the content I'm playing was QA'ed with the stuff I'm using, thus it is solveable with the stuff I'm using. Much like Bloodworth said, the option of not having an option can be blissful.

[Mrbloodworth]

It also throws off PvP, where the ability to recognise equipment at a glance gives advanced players an edge - if appearance doesn't link to ability, it makes PvP more random.

It doesn't do this very well, though.  Looking at a Paladin's gear, for example, you can get a rough idea of his gear's power level, but not what he can actually do.  Holy gear for a certain tier is visually identical to protection gear and retribution gear, save for the weapon type the paladin is likely to be carrying(which I suspect is outside the scope of the argument here).  In terms of gameplay, THAT is the information you'd want to know, not "is his crit chance 23 or 28 percent."

I am also going to point out that most mods are used to circumvent game play.

Tom tom/ Quest helper (To the point they now account for its use in quest creation), Gatherer, auctioneer, Atlasloot Enhanced, HealBot Continued, Decursive.....

SOME mods are there to customize, but a great number of them are to negate, or circumvent game play or even automate it.

[Vash]

I am also going to point out that most mods are used to circumvent game play.

Tom tom/ Quest helper (To the point they now account for its use in quest creation), Gatherer, auctioneer, Atlasloot Enhanced, HealBot Continued, Decursive.....

SOME mods are there to customize, but a great number of them are to negate, or circumvent game play or even automate it.

None of those mods automate anything though, they just track data, display information differently, or make different control inputs simple to set up.  They are negating, circumventing, and automating the mindless and sucky tasks in the game and as a result improving the user experience.

Quest mods - they are just displaying quest objectives on the map.  Is rereading the crappy quest description 4 times to figure out where objective X is or looking it up on a web database like WoWhead a critical gameplay element?  Blizzard has not changed their quest design or descriptions at all to reflect the use of these addons, which is why they are still popular and why newer games like WAR decided to just cut out the middle man and include the feature as part of the base UI.

Gatherer and Auctioneer - they are just keeping track of resource locations and item prices.  Is remembering where every node of iron ore you've seen is located or how much runecloth has been selling for lately a critical gameplay element?

Atlasloot - is just an in game item database and display tool.  Is remembering every item every dungeon boss in the game drops or looking this information up on a web database like WoWhead a critical gameplay element?

Healbot Continued - just gives the player customizable raid frames that are already set up to use click to cast commands.  It is possible in the default UI to set up macros for every healing and cleansing spell so they will cast on whatever your mouse is hovering over, including the default raid frames.  Is creating a macro for every spell and using Blizzards crappy default raid frames a critical gameplay element?

Decursive - in classic pre-TBC WoW is was possible to have addons automate things, so decursive automated debuff removal.  That got axed long long ago and ever since, decursive is basically just a simplified Healbot Continued that only works with debuffs instead of all healing spells.

None of these mods automate anything, they just simplify or remove crappy mindless tasks and let you play the game instead of alt-tabbing to look up information on some web database every 5 minutes.

[tmp]

None of these mods automate anything, they just simplify or remove crappy mindless tasks and let you play the game instead of alt-tabbing to look up information on some web database every 5 minutes.

I think his point was, these "crappy mindless tasks" were designed as part of the standard gameplay, so if a mod simplifies or removes these bits then it does in fact circumvent some of the gameplay as it was intended. Same for the alt-tabbing and web databases.

You could argue that these tasks being crappy and mindless shouldn't be made part of the gameplay to begin with, but that's another argument altogether.