Richard Bartle on MMO design (IMGDC 09)

[SnakeCharmer]

All the options in the world can't save a poorly designed UI for the new player or a poorly designed on for the game, period.

[WindupAtheist]

The entire old guard, all the moldy MUD relic guys and the people at places Mythic, and SOE, and so forth, should fuck off and go get nice productive jobs writing thermostat control software. I keep seeing them on forums like this, telling us they still matter, and then just pitching one shitbag flop after another.

Go away. Sooner or later Nintendo or someone like that will decide to make an MMO, and Blizzard will have a real competitor. But not you guys. You guys just don't even have the technical chops for it. Mythic seconds, anyone? What the fuck.

[schild]

Sooner or later Nintendo

You rang?

[Vash]

I always felt that for PvP games there is something to be said for keeping a consistent, relatively uniform UI for everyone.  It's your platform for competing and taken in that context a lot of user created UI mods are flat out cheating.  I expect I'm in the minority here though.

Everyone is getting the same information from the server, how someone prefers this information be displayed doesn't seem like a competitive issue at all (I'm talking health bars, action bars, buffs/debuffs, not seeing through walls/terrain/stealth).  If someone likes different style or different size font, wants their health displayed in position Y instead of X, etc. etc. I don't see the big deal.

It only becomes an issue when the default UI is so bad at presenting this information that people who go out of their way to make it easy to see and interpret have an advantage over those who don't.

[Mrbloodworth]

I always felt that for PvP games there is something to be said for keeping a consistent, relatively uniform UI for everyone.  It's your platform for competing and taken in that context a lot of user created UI mods are flat out cheating.  I expect I'm in the minority here though.

Everyone is getting the same information from the server, how someone prefers this information be displayed doesn't seem like a competitive issue at all (I'm talking health bars, action bars, buffs/debuffs, not seeing through walls/terrain/stealth).  If someone likes different style or different size font, wants their health displayed in position Y instead of X, etc. etc. I don't see the big deal.

It only becomes an issue when the default UI is so bad at presenting this information that people who go out of their way to make it easy to see and interpret have an advantage over those who don't.

Presentation of info is one part of a UI. Your second sentence i agree with. Thankfully, positioning, font size and font type, are all options in almost all but the most old GUI options. This isn't what i am referring to, those options, have already been accounted for by the UI designer. Its already provided to the user in most cases.

[Rendakor]

Presentation of info is one part of a UI. Your second sentence i agree with. Thankfully, positioning, font size and font type, are all options in almost all but the most old GUI options. This isn't what i am referring to, those options, have already been accounted for by the UI designer. Its already provided to the user in most cases.

Emphasis mine. Did you really not play WoW? I challenge you to log in and change the positioning of ANYTHING without mods. Seriously. That is precisely what I'm railing at. Being able to play the game how I like it is a big deal for me: I like my chatbox in one place, my hotbars in another, etc. You cannot do this in WoW without mods. Am I cheater?

[Mrbloodworth]

Presentation of info is one part of a UI. Your second sentence i agree with. Thankfully, positioning, font size and font type, are all options in almost all but the most old GUI options. This isn't what i am referring to, those options, have already been accounted for by the UI designer. Its already provided to the user in most cases.

Emphasis mine. Did you really not play WoW? I challenge you to log in and change the positioning of ANYTHING without mods.

I thought I said Wows basic UI was broken?

Also, where did i say modders were cheaters? I have also been speaking in somewhat broad terms, not trying except for a few places to talk about any one game.

[Fordel]

Sooner or later Nintendo

You rang?

Why Hasn't this happened yet? Seems so damn obvious.

[Venkman]

I fail to see how the ability to move and resize windows is an "advanced" user feature. What exactly is WoW's UI a stellar improvement over? It is inferior to CoH and EQ2, both of which launched (at least a week  ) before WoW. Having played both of those, WoW's UI felt like playing in the stone age. Don't the masses like resizing windows?

Where else but in this genre does fully customizable UI matter, much less a gamer expectation? I find full customization a bad excuse, something used as a crutch, and only allowable here because it's pretty much part of the culture of MMOs. Which can be said for so many conventions in the genre. Heck, you can even look at the real growth opportunities in this genre (kids-target browser/full screen) and compare your need for XML/LUA bot-able UIs to that. That doesn't even get into just about every other genre.

UI is a red herring. It only matters to core gamers, and mostly in this genre. If a game here lost players, a poor UI is not the top reason.

[Hutch]

Sooner or later Nintendo

pika-pic here

You rang?

Why Hasn't this happened yet? Seems so damn obvious.

Cultural issues? Does WoW even have a toehold in Japan yet?

Technical issues? I bet if Nintendo ever did make this kind of move, they'd want World of Pokemon to be playable on the DS, the Wii, whatever their next generation console will be, and also port it to the PC. Each platform is going to require some extra design and dev time. Also, they'd have to find some developers who know how to write software for Windows.

After FFXI, I'm not looking forward to any PC port of a game that has to be playable on the Wii. Just saying.

[schild]

UI is a red herring.

No, it's not. It's important to everyone, even if they don't know it.

See your regular soccer mom's confusion if she's been a longtime mac user and tries using a windows box. Particularly notable "back in the day."

Games may not lose players over a poor UI, or at least an amount that isn't notable, but it definitely matters a huge, huge deal. The trick is to make a UI that is passable enough that it's something regular people won't complain about. But really, every company should have people only doing GUI work. Of course, there aren't enough GUI designers in the industry for that to ever, ever happen.

[Mrbloodworth]

I have found, for the most part, programmers have very little understanding of usability. Maybe its just in my field, but... I'm thinking no. You can always tell when it was left to a programmer to make (or design the methodology of use) the UI, and not a GA or other person with usability in mind.

Typically, they are also the ones to "Let the user fix it". AKA: Modable.

Darniaq is right, this is really one of the few places (MMO's) that lets you mod a UI like this. Everyone else seems to think like i do. wonder why.   

[Arinon]

Everyone is getting the same information from the server, how someone prefers this information be displayed doesn't seem like a competitive issue at all (I'm talking health bars, action bars, buffs/debuffs, not seeing through walls/terrain/stealth).  If someone likes different style or different size font, wants their health displayed in position Y instead of X, etc. etc. I don't see the big deal.

It only becomes an issue when the default UI is so bad at presenting this information that people who go out of their way to make it easy to see and interpret have an advantage over those who don't.

Bolded the most important part there.  Granted there is a pretty large gray area but a lot of the so-called convenience mods provide a quantifiable advantage beyond just aesthetics.

Take something like vanilla EQ or Guild Wars.  You were limited to 8 skill slots and this forced a tactical decision.  Totally invalidated by changing the interface to support more.  Modded raid frames in WoW, especially early on before they streamlined the default one, could provide a ton more tactical information in a much more condensed, easy to digest form.  Color coding for debuffs, ordering players in real time based on health remaining, even changing a healer’s workflow with click to heal.   You drastically lower the amount of situational awareness and reaction speed needed compared to someone using the provided tools.

There are also going to be things under the hood that the client needs but the player shouldn’t really have access to.  Radar and stealth hacks come to mind as extreme examples but the advantages are all there for someone willing to tinker.  You can argue that the out of box UIs are not fun or needlessly difficult and I’m totally on board but that’s not my point.  Bitch that the options you want aren’t provided in game, not that tools to modify the game are weak or not present.

I know we are in an MMO thread but take something like a Starcraft or a TF2.  It’s not an issue because the interfaces provided are pretty damn good at what they need to do.  User modified interfaces are band-aids and I’d rather see developers, you know, develop something that’s gonna work well.

[Edit: I take too long to reply.]

[Venkman]

UI is a red herring.

No, it's not. It's important to everyone, even if they don't know it.

No, I meant it's a red herring in this sub-topic. It wasn't Bartle's major point, and it isn't the thing most holding back the genre. Not with WoW having gotten it right both in terms of default UI as well as allowing for the most complete customization of it (though requiring most of that happening out of game, rather than within ala SB).

As an aside, I totally agree good UI is critical. But only this genre sub-contracts the achievement of "good UI" to the very players who need a good UI most. Where else is that nonsense allowed? There's plenty of games in other genres that have bad UI, but there's a lot more examples where the studio spent enough time tuning it the right way. Here, instead we get games that are largely derivative of prior games that still don't know how to get those things right.

And just to be clear, when I say "UI" I meant the specific interface windows that provide input points and statistical insights into the game mechanic (e.g. hot bars, health bars and portrait, map, inventory, etc.). The world environment itself is something I categorize separately.

[schild]

No, I meant it's a red herring in this sub-topic.

Well, yea, Lum didn't want to talk about the fact he missed the point.

 

[IainC]

Where else but in this genre does fully customizable UI matter, much less a gamer expectation? I find full customization a bad excuse, something used as a crutch, and only allowable here because it's pretty much part of the culture of MMOs. Which can be said for so many conventions in the genre. Heck, you can even look at the real growth opportunities in this genre (kids-target browser/full screen) and compare your need for XML/LUA bot-able UIs to that. That doesn't even get into just about every other genre.

UI is a red herring. It only matters to core gamers, and mostly in this genre. If a game here lost players, a poor UI is not the top reason.

In other game genres there should be no need to mod the UI because the user requirements are controlled by the game itself. Depending on where you are in the game, the UI can change as needed to provide the necessary feedback for the situation at hand. In an MMO, even a fairly heavily content-managed one such as WoW, the UI needs to be able to handle multiple play options. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, a healer's UI requirements are different from those of a DPS character, which are different from a support caster and so forth, but sometimes your healer needs access to the elements that the DPS guy relies on just to confuse the issue.

[Tarami]

In other game genres there should be no need to mod the UI because the user requirements are controlled by the game itself. Depending on where you are in the game, the UI can change as needed to provide the necessary feedback for the situation at hand. In an MMO, even a fairly heavily content-managed one such as WoW, the UI needs to be able to handle multiple play options.

I think this is only partially true. It comes back to the game designers. Since it's late and I'm tired, I'll use my favourite way of making a point.

This is a design meeting at Valve:
- So I have this idea of having different types of body carapace. Like, certain types protect better against bullets and some better against energy weapons.
- How are you going to visualize that?
- I was thinking you could have this symbol in the user int--
- No, no! That's too much to keep track of. It isn't fun.
- Yeah, well, I guess it was a bit fudged. I'll develop the idea some.

This is a design meeting at Mythic:
- So I have these ideas what we could do with armour.
- Like what?
- So you have two types of light armour, I call them spell cloth and martial cloth, each type can only two different classes have. Then of course you have all the medium armour, for six different classes. And the heavy. That's four more. That's like twelve types of armour.
- That sounds awesome. Yo- err, I'm a genious. Then we attach some different defense values to those. All presented as numbers on the character sheet. That's fantastic. You and you, go make up some formulas for it. Use the dart board if you have to.

[Venkman]

In other game genres there should be no need to mod the UI because the user requirements are controlled by the game itself. Depending on where you are in the game, the UI can change as needed to provide the necessary feedback for the situation at hand. In an MMO, even a fairly heavily content-managed one such as WoW, the UI needs to be able to handle multiple play options. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, a healer's UI requirements are different from those of a DPS character, which are different from a support caster and so forth, but sometimes your healer needs access to the elements that the DPS guy relies on just to confuse the issue.

I dunno man. A negotiator in Fallout 3 is a fundamentally different experience than a sniper, but I didn't need to reconfigure my entire UI for that. Going older, Zergs, Protoss and Humans play very different, but all work within the same core UI. Closer to home, the only real difference between a WoW healer and a WoW DPSer is what your icons look like and which bars are the most important to you. That's for the majority of the game anyway. For the Raiding subset, yea, things get different real quick.

But even all that aside, it's not the job of the player to figure out the best UI. That's what developers get paid for  Contextual UIs based on class? Why hasn't that been done yet (aside from it's hard)?

[Kageru]

Because blizzard has to implement a system for the lowest common denominator so keeping the UI simple / pretty is high priority. And they don't have to worry about holding back the hardcore and perfectionist types because they know the UI is fully modifiable. That's why Blizzard consistently introduces simplified versions of some of the more popular mods.

However this discussion was more interesting when it was talking about gameplay than minutia.

[Ratman_tf]

However this discussion was more interesting when it was talking about gameplay than minutia.

The NGE thread is still open. 

I used UI as one example. What's the fundamental difference between WAR and WoW? Nothing. You kill monsters for experience and loot, and fight other players. Bang. Done.
The details, the minutia, seems to be the difference between 300k and 12m.

Even the WoW devs were surprised that players were so gung-ho over haircuts. Haircuts!

[Fordel]

Haircuts are fucking important in a game where you are otherwise Class/Race Combo Clone Number 567,825-B.

[tmp]

Even the WoW devs were surprised that players were so gung-ho over haircuts. Haircuts!

Haircuts and hats. Being able to keep your hair while wearing one is like sitting in chairs, apparently a must-have.

[Venkman]

Because blizzard has to implement a system for the lowest common denominator so keeping the UI simple / pretty is high priority. And they don't have to worry about holding back the hardcore and perfectionist types because they know the UI is fully modifiable. That's why Blizzard consistently introduces simplified versions of some of the more popular mods.

This meme is funny. WoW is not simple. It just lowers the barrier of entry by making a game that a) works; and, b) properly explains itself. Anyone that survives the trek to 79 is well prepared for the jump to 80. Anyone hitting 80 is only unprepared for the lifestyle changes required because Raiding is a lifestyle change that transcends all MMOs.

WoW is not easymode EQ. It's EQ that f'ning worked. I was there. WoW is better at doing what EQ1 set out to define. No harm, no foul, one was first, the other polish.

But the idea that WoW was some lowest common denominator experience scaled to dumbify a game enough to attract soccer Moms and 8 years olds doesn't survive first contact with the very same people that play the crap out of Ulduar for 20 hours a day while refreshing the PTR patch notes page.

WoW was not EQ1 dumbed down. It was effing EQ1 done right.

But I agree with you that Blizzard knows what mods to make default in their UI, and isn't afraid to do so. Which is fine. Apple's been doing that since After Dark.

[SnakeCharmer]

Take away the quest trackers that hold your hand to the conclusion of the quest, spell timer mods, pot timer mods, hate meter mods, and whatever else, and WoW ain't so easy.  It, honestly, can be pretty freakin' brutal when it wants to be.  I swear, look at some of the mod'd UI templates and screenshots of what people do their UI and it's not even a game.  You might see a 2"x2" square of the action, and that's IT. 

Then it just turns into Dance Dance Revolution with a keyboard.

[UnSub]

Where else but in this genre does fully customizable UI matter, much less a gamer expectation? I find full customization a bad excuse, something used as a crutch, and only allowable here because it's pretty much part of the culture of MMOs. Which can be said for so many conventions in the genre. Heck, you can even look at the real growth opportunities in this genre (kids-target browser/full screen) and compare your need for XML/LUA bot-able UIs to that. That doesn't even get into just about every other genre.

UI is a red herring. It only matters to core gamers, and mostly in this genre. If a game here lost players, a poor UI is not the top reason.

In other game genres there should be no need to mod the UI because the user requirements are controlled by the game itself. Depending on where you are in the game, the UI can change as needed to provide the necessary feedback for the situation at hand. In an MMO, even a fairly heavily content-managed one such as WoW, the UI needs to be able to handle multiple play options. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, a healer's UI requirements are different from those of a DPS character, which are different from a support caster and so forth, but sometimes your healer needs access to the elements that the DPS guy relies on just to confuse the issue.

That's generally because MMOs just pile on the powers as the carrot for character advancement, so that you get single target heal, heal self, group heal, group heal plus buff etc. By max level a character gets a huge number of powers to play around with, some which are particularly specialised or situational.

Other genres have allowed the UI to be stripped back by limiting the number of things a player can do with a character (or: have stripped back what a character can do, so the player doesn't need a complex UI to deal with it). MMOs could simplify what they offer in terms of gameplay thus not needing a screen full of power trays, but I think the MMO players would revolt at not getting a new power variant every other level.

[Phred]

It's better than the EQ UI.

Not by much though.

[Phred]

That is precisely what I'm railing at. Being able to play the game how I like it is a big deal for me: I like my chatbox in one place, my hotbars in another, etc. You cannot do this in WoW without mods. Am I cheater?

Actually, the chatbox is the one movable window in the default ui and has been since release.

[WindupAtheist]

Sooner or later Nintendo

[pikachu]

You rang?

Yeah, that would be fucking huge. Partly because of the IP, but also partly because Nintendo has a level of general craftsmanship that Mythic/Funcom/whatever just plain do not (and will never) have.

[Rendakor]

 That is precisely what I'm railing at. Being able to play the game how I like it is a big deal for me: I like my chatbox in one place, my hotbars in another, etc. You cannot do this in WoW without mods. Am I cheater?

Actually, the chatbox is the one movable window in the default ui and has been since release.

True,  I forgot about the chatbox.

UnSub: Lots of hardcore MMO gamers are arguing against simplifying gameplay, not for it. Making things more driven by player skill, i.e. ability to micromanage 400 different buttons.

[UnSub]

I know what the hardcore say they want, but the future isn't the hardcore. Who then use macros to keep things simple anyway.

[Sunbury]

UI's are my other big gripe about modern MMORPGs besides static content.

Not the specifics, just that fact the player interface it totally unrealistic for a medeval setting.

Again, I don't want *ALL* MMOs to have dynamic content, or *ALL* games to get rid of seeing health bars on all players and mobs in the raid at the same time - but HOW ABOUT A SINGLE GAME?

[UnsGub]

I have found, for the most part, programmers have very little understanding of usability. Maybe its just in my field, but... I'm thinking no.

They have amazing understanding for their own usability.  If they want a UI beyond a text string they make them fast, powerful, and easy to change.



They also know the usability issues with all the tools they work with.  Religious discussions on editors is a common example.

Games are all about obscuring the numbers that actually make it up which is something programmers are not good at since they work on those exact numbers on a daily basis.

[Mrbloodworth]

UI's are my other big gripe about modern MMORPGs besides static content.

Not the specifics, just that fact the player interface it totally unrealistic for a medeval setting.

Again, I don't want *ALL* MMOs to have dynamic content, or *ALL* games to get rid of seeing health bars on all players and mobs in the raid at the same time - but HOW ABOUT A SINGLE GAME?

If someone introduced a new MMO GUI (with out that MMO having DRASTICALLY different game play or mechanics). No one would play it.

They would be bitching they can't mod it, and "Why cant you just copy wow".

Tell me I'm wrong.

[SnakeCharmer]

Probably very true.  People want what's instantly familiar, regardless if it will work for <whatever MMO>.  For many, the WoW way is the only way.  And UI mod'ing has become such an ingrained thing, if they can't do it, they'll yell about it. 

[Vash]

The thing is, most people who mod their UI, do so because the default UI is getting in their way and making the game less enjoyable.  Worst possible offense is the UI is making it difficult for someone to function/play the way they want, whatever control style they may prefer.  A lesser offense is the UI not being aesthetically pleasing to the player.  If a game has a UI with a very robust set of customization options right out of the box, significantly more robust than anything out right now, then there won't really be a need for any UI mods other than a few select players who want more exotic/extreme aesthetic options.

How can having a UI that can be as functional and aesthetically pleasing as possible for as many players as possible not be a big deal?  Especially in the MMO space where players will be spending a significant amount of time with the game and even minor annoyances can build to the point where they will hurt retention or scare new players away.

Trying to build the robot-Jesus of UI's and shoehorn your players into it is doomed to failure these days.  There are so many control styles people use, from click to move -> clickers -> WASD+keybinds+mouse -> keyboard turners, that trying to build a single UI that works efficiently for all of them seems like it's more trouble than it's worth.  Especially since you'll already want to have a variety of aesthetic options because I think it goes without saying that opinions vary greatly on what is aesthetically pleasing.