Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 03:24:50 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Richard Bartle on MMO design (IMGDC 09) 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Richard Bartle on MMO design (IMGDC 09)  (Read 133468 times)
Hoth
Terracotta Army
Posts: 66


on: April 30, 2009, 12:39:32 AM

http://mud.co.uk/richard/IMGDC2009.pdf

An interesting read. If someone finds a recording of the discussion those talkslides were used for, please post a link. I would be highly interested.

And if this is the wrong subforum for this, please feel free so push this thread around.

Edit:  Corrected conference name which I fucked up.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 08:53:35 AM by Hoth »
Hawkbit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5531

Like a Klansman in the ghetto.


Reply #1 on: April 30, 2009, 02:45:34 AM

God it's good to hear someone say this out loud:
Quote
Like quests, raiding content is fixed
– There’s only so many times you can run naxx
before it’s samey
• Once, in fact
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #2 on: April 30, 2009, 03:16:53 AM

 rolleyes
SnakeCharmer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3807


Reply #3 on: April 30, 2009, 04:18:23 AM

As much as I hate to use an overused meme...

Obvious statement is obvious. 

Nothing in that presentation that hasn't been stated by any armchair developer with more than 6 months gaming experience under their belt.
K9
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7441


Reply #4 on: April 30, 2009, 04:27:51 AM

Those are some really unattractive slides.

I love the smell of facepalm in the morning
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 06:25:21 AM

Quote
Fortunately, costs are coming down, now the pioneers have figured it all out

I hope to hell he was being sarcastic with this one. 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 06:30:08 AM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #6 on: April 30, 2009, 10:41:40 AM

Those are some really unattractive slides.
He was obviously paid per font.
Ratman_tf
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3818


Reply #7 on: April 30, 2009, 12:12:31 PM

Quote
Go out there and make something new!

Physician, heal thyself.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Ghambit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5576


Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 01:07:22 PM

He failed to address the real reason MMOs suck, and that's ego, their relation to intellectual property, and greed.   Designers and investors tried to take something inherently social, personally creative, and gamey and turn it into a patented product.  Now, they're backpeddling to reform the initial "openness" the genre needs to survive.

It's like rather then being given a nice high-quality hammer, we've been given a bunch of half-pounded nails in a board...  soon after which one becomes bored splitting skulls with or pounding our fists into a bloody pulp on.  For no ultimate reason at that.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
sam, an eggplant
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1518


Reply #9 on: April 30, 2009, 02:39:49 PM

So his proposal is to begin with a hand-crafted, polished, broad, directed experience (WoW) and then segue into an open-ended deep sandbox with nebulous emergent content (EVE). This is justified by his belief that content creation is, well, hard, and he dismisses user-created content as a potential solution pretty much out of hand. Well, I disagree. I don't believe that "emergent" gameplay compares favorably to hand-crafted polished content.

You hear about these really cool world-changing political shifts in EVE online, and they sound really awesome, but the vast overwhelming majority aren't playing at that level-- they're mining, or killing pirates, or PvPing, or trading resources. And that level isn't really about the game anyway, it was "played" on bulletin boards and IRC chat channels. The game was incidental, a justification.

I don't play games to chat with old friends, or collect cute pets, or decorate my in-game house with crazy furniture or play wacky dress-up. I don't want to be a miner, or a crafter, or a cog in a wheel of a giant corporation. I don't want to have to "find the fun". I pay the devs for that, it should be handed to me on a silver platter. I want to be the hero that saves the day, exploring dangerous new continents, every day overcoming new challenges, progressing through a well-written story. That's what I pay for.

Now, that's just me. Some people dig all that crap, and I have no religious objection to that. But it's not my bag. I want to be the hero.
Ghambit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5576


Reply #10 on: April 30, 2009, 03:44:04 PM

I think he was grossly mistaken in his dismissal of user-created content, especially when he himself noted that the best moments in gaming are usually created by the gamer.  The game (especially the RPG and even moreso the MMORPG) is there as a Tool for the player to glean his own fun from.  Since MMORPGS are content-rich, they're only economically viable if only 1 juggernaut exists (WoW); one that is big enough to provide content in a timely and quality manner.
In order to combat this simple fact, you have to GO BACK to the beginning and make the game what it was meant to be... and that's a highly refined set of tools combined in a polished theme with just enough quality linear content to ease the player's injection into the gameworld until they can fend for themselves.

Once this is done, we'll be paying monthly for raw server usage instead of writers and artists... and development will be cheaper and quicker.
Until that time, the best we have to look forward to is this new fangled isometric MMO trend and/or pbbg on the web.  3d 1st/3rd person MMOs are dying quickly imo... and they'll continue to unless they embrace more refined development pre and post-release.  Just take too damned long and are too damned expensive for the eventual "2 weeks of pleasure" most people get from them.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #11 on: April 30, 2009, 03:49:13 PM

I don't play games to chat with old friends, or collect cute pets, or decorate my in-game house with crazy furniture or play wacky dress-up. I don't want to be a miner, or a crafter, or a cog in a wheel of a giant corporation. I don't want to have to "find the fun". I pay the devs for that, it should be handed to me on a silver platter. I want to be the hero that saves the day, exploring dangerous new continents, every day overcoming new challenges, progressing through a well-written story. That's what I pay for.

Now, that's just me. Some people dig all that crap, and I have no religious objection to that. But it's not my bag. I want to be the hero.

Here's where I think the industry is mislead.  Sam and I want very different things from our game.  Instead of making a game for each of us, they attempt to make a watered-down version of a game that contains aspects that we both want while leaving neither of us truely satisfied. 

More specialized games please!  Less of this "appeal to the masses" crap. 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 04:05:39 PM by Nebu »

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
IainC
Developers
Posts: 6538

Wargaming.net


WWW
Reply #12 on: April 30, 2009, 03:59:51 PM

I think he was grossly mistaken in his dismissal of user-created content, especially when he himself noted that the best moments in gaming are usually created by the gamer. 

Those aren't the same things.

- And in stranger Iains, even Death may die -

SerialForeigner Photography.
DLRiley
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1982


Reply #13 on: April 30, 2009, 05:41:06 PM

I'm waiting for someone to admit that mmo's aren't content rich and have very little in common with real games.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #14 on: April 30, 2009, 05:46:20 PM

I'm waiting for someone to admit that mmo's aren't content rich and have very little in common with real games.
Well, I hope you weren't waiting for Bartle to say it, considering he's never made one.
Malakili
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10596


Reply #15 on: April 30, 2009, 05:57:55 PM

I'm waiting for someone to admit that mmo's aren't content rich

Agreed.  The most content rich MMOs I've played pale in comparison to a game like Oblivion (+mods/addons), or better yet, Morrowind.  Let alone many other games.   MMOs are mediocre for their content, and fun for their social aspect.  I'm back on WoW at the moment because I wanted to hang out with some old friends that live far away from me and play a game with them, not because the content is oh-so-compelling.
Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280

Auto Assault Affectionado


Reply #16 on: April 30, 2009, 06:02:54 PM

I think he was grossly mistaken in his dismissal of user-created content, especially when he himself noted that the best moments in gaming are usually created by the gamer. 

Player created content = CoX custom missions.
Player created content != EvE PVP sandbox corp wars etc.

Actual user created content is likely to be gimmicky and kind of suck, but you will get some excellent things sometimes as well. I can see dismissing it just from the idea that it would be nigh-impossible to give it the sort of QC that it really should receive.

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Modern Angel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3553


Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 06:10:58 PM

I'm waiting for someone to admit that mmo's aren't content rich and have very little in common with real games.
Well, I hope you weren't waiting for Bartle to say it, considering he's never made one.

Thank God someone will say it: the dude made MUDs in the 70s. MUDs are cool and all but they're as far removed from modern MMO market and design realities as can be at this point. He's a sharp guy, I appreciate the psychology of games stuff that he's done but he's never done it.
sam, an eggplant
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1518


Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 06:27:11 PM

So what if he hasn't made a MMO? Neither have most of us, and we certainly feel qualified to judge them. His ideas aren't naive or laughably clueless, they're just wrong. First, user created content is the future of online gaming. I've been saying that for a decade now, since before the lumboards, back on alt.games.everquest. It's manifest destiny. And secondly, while there may be some overlap, "game" players don't necessarily enjoy sandboxes. Try to put us in the same game, and what do you get? That's right, SWG. Yeah, I went there. It ends in Twitch!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 06:29:31 PM by sam, an eggplant »
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 06:33:30 PM

So what if he hasn't made a MMO? Neither have most of us, and we certainly feel qualified to judge them.

Yea, and guess what? We're not giving keynotes at GDC.
Ratman_tf
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3818


Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 06:33:54 PM

More specialized games please!  Less of this "appeal to the masses" crap. 

That's why Eve rocks, and Bartle completely missed the point with his blatherings. Eve is focused on it's gameplay. Maybe that gameplay isn't for everyone, but the subscriber base they do have is (relativley) happy.

I like sandboxes, I like sims, and I like player initiated content. I hate storytelling in MMOGs because they're so terrible at it compared to single player games. That's my preference.

Eve isn't a better game that WoW. It's focused on what makes it different from WoW. That's the only lesson to take from Eve.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
DLRiley
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1982


Reply #21 on: April 30, 2009, 06:41:23 PM

EvE is one of those great games that will never be made again because people don't work for free.
UnSub
Contributor
Posts: 8064


WWW
Reply #22 on: April 30, 2009, 07:01:25 PM

Ultimately MMOs need to be cheaper and be developed faster if we are to have more specialised niche titles. They will also look like crap because fast + cheap pretty much means graphics won't have the money spent on them. Try some things out, keep what works and if the game is unprofitable, shut it down and try again based on what you learned.

Yes, this is the Asian 2D MMO industry personified. Graphics are passable, development time is short(er), more MMO titles are produced, each with a slightly different theme / audience in mind.

I'll wait here for someone to chime in on how Asian MMOs suck, thus missing my point.

DLRiley
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1982


Reply #23 on: April 30, 2009, 07:17:22 PM

Koreans have been making 3D mmos for cheap years before 2D exploded onto the seen over there.
Sutro
Terracotta Army
Posts: 165


Reply #24 on: April 30, 2009, 08:11:10 PM

Er, have any of you who say he's never worked on a game actually read his CV?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/cv.htm

Fair enough cop that he's never had programming duties on a AAA, but he's done a hell of a lot more than 95 percent of the virtual world academic crowd.


rattran
Moderator
Posts: 4257

Unreasonable


Reply #25 on: April 30, 2009, 08:24:19 PM

Er, have any of you who say he's never worked on a game actually read his CV?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/cv.htm

Fair enough cop that he's never had programming duties on a AAA, but he's done a hell of a lot more than 95 percent of the virtual world academic crowd.


Spunky Princess was a real tour de force. MUD & MUD2 was about it, plus some sms java stuff. None of these things are graphical mmos.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #26 on: April 30, 2009, 08:50:23 PM

Er, have any of you who say he's never worked on a game actually read his CV?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/cv.htm

Fair enough cop that he's never had programming duties on a AAA, but he's done a hell of a lot more than 95 percent of the virtual world academic crowd.
Most of the people here, particularly the ones that have been around a while, know exactly what he's done.

Which is be a neckbeard for 26 years. Prior to that, yea, he was an important figure. He didn't know why yet, but he's sure gonna let you know why now!
Kageru
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4549


Reply #27 on: April 30, 2009, 08:53:29 PM


I think i've suddenly realized the attraction of being an academic. You can write "from on high" about the problems inherent in a topic without feeling obligated to present detailed solutions. Still, another analysis of the problems that a fairly obvious. Unlikely to be resolved though given current MMO's seem to spend 90% of their time on graphics, 9% sucking up to a licensed IP and about 1% actually thinking about the game mechanics and how fun / involving they are.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #28 on: April 30, 2009, 08:55:18 PM


I think i've suddenly realized the attraction of being an academic. You can write "from on high" about the problems inherent in a topic without feeling obligated to present detailed solutions. Still, another analysis of the problems that a fairly obvious. Unlikely to be resolved though given current MMO's seem to spend 90% of their time on graphics, 9% sucking up to a licensed IP and about 1% actually thinking about the game mechanics and how fun / involving they are.

Yes, MANY of us want Bruce Sterling's job.

futurist?

FUTURIST?

Shit. Brilliant. I wish I'd been smart enough to market myself as that.

Edit: Yes, I just clumped Bartle in with a guy that makes shit up, for a living.
Sutro
Terracotta Army
Posts: 165


Reply #29 on: April 30, 2009, 09:10:21 PM

Well, I can't lie that Beyond the Beyond is a steaming pile of shit. There's reasons he doesn't allow comments on it.

Still, Bartle's done consultancy to Interplay, and he's also worked behind-the-scenes on a lot of MMOs, just not in a production role. I'm not one of his biggest fans - the Bartle Square is far too simplistic for my taste - but he does have some chops.

I mean, there's only so long someone can go to school and create an academic career. Bear in mind that PhD-land takes 3-4 years, then you've got 5-6 years of scrambling for tenure after that. If your argument, thus, is that academics have nothing valid to say about MMOs (since the career track to become one pretty much precludes much professional work) I really, really can't get on board with that.

schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #30 on: April 30, 2009, 09:16:40 PM

I'm just saying that anyone who knows SO much should be making them instead of pulling this shit.

Today class, we're going to go to my ivory tower, built from MUD, and I'm going to show you my gold throne where I sit when I want to watch the peasants try to make something that I so obviously perfected 30 years ago. After that I'm going to snort blow off a co-eds thigh, give a speech somewhere I really shouldn't be since my last real game came out before the NES was even an IDEA let alone a console that was ready for worldwide release that would change the world. Afterwhich I'm going to say a bunch of really profound, obvious shit and show you a square I came up with back when such a thing may have been relevant. After that? Yea, you guessed it. I'm going to ride naked on the back of my golden eagle that I have named Fame.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 09:18:22 PM by schild »
Jack9
Terracotta Army
Posts: 47


Reply #31 on: April 30, 2009, 11:06:01 PM

This seemed like a thinly veiled attempt to make EVE/Shadowbane (that's right, I said it) look good. Oh, and an excuse to use a lot of abstract terms in different combinations. Far too many adjectives to cloud what he's trying to say with bias, "operate within artificial boundaries for obscure historical reasons", or otherwise to half-make a point "Eventually you segue into a freeform game".

Well shit, if that's all there is to it, we just need to work out how to keep them playing during that time of "eventually" and work out how this serves everyone, not just the submarket a freeform game appeals to.

The other side of the coin says, you make diku content in phases, you expand upon the story from expansion to expansion till you've retroactively portrayed (allowed players to consume) all the lore, you start over. That's what everyone does and that's what works.
Draegan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10043


Reply #32 on: May 01, 2009, 06:10:17 AM

All I took from those slides is that if an MMOG doesn't have history written about it it's going to fail?
Jamiko
Terracotta Army
Posts: 364


Reply #33 on: May 01, 2009, 06:16:08 AM

Without being present to hear his talk, it is not really possible to understand the slides as he intended. He shouldn't release them, because they are really just a visual companion to his talks. Too easy to take what they say out of context.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #34 on: May 01, 2009, 06:38:27 AM

visual companion

Oh man, I hope not.

Seriously though, those look like an outline. Though I'm sure SOME dev here heard the speech. I have not, however, heard of a single dev that agreed with the majority of stuff he had to say.

At this point I'm ready to just say "It's put up or shutup time, Mr. Bartle."
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Richard Bartle on MMO design (IMGDC 09)  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC