Mass Effect 2 *spoilers around pg 29/30*

[Merusk]

See I forgive that.  I wouldn't build a cyborg without making sure it couldn't rip my face off, either.  It's just common sense.

[Ingmar]

Plus maybe Shepherd is into it.

[Ironwood]

In one of your very first conversations with her, she tells you she argued for putting a control chip in Shepherd during the rebuilding project but was overruled.

Missed that.

It's possible I was daydreaming about fucking Yvonne Strahovsky hard in the ass.

For some reason.

[HaemishM]

^ THAT ^

I'd completely forgotten about the control chip, but like Merusk said, if I rebuilt a zombie of the most powerful asskicker in the universe, I'd want to make sure if his first words were "BRAINS!" my first words could be "Ctrl-Alt-Del."

[Sjofn]

She could be lying. 



Probably not.

[Sky]

[Lakov_Sanite]

That's not a spoiler, I believe her ass is in the manual.

[UnSub]

You don't stick your dick in crazy.

ManShep's dick is the cure though.

FemShep gets the option of bland, nerdy or father-figure.

[Furiously]

You don't stick your dick in crazy.

ManShep's dick is the cure though.

FemShep gets the option of bland, nerdy or father-figure.

Yea - it kinda ticked me off that Jack talked about her previous relations with other females then gave Shepard the cold shoulder.

[Shrike]

Gee, this thread certainly went places when I was at work. I approve. 

[Strazos]

There's also the Morinth option in the post-game...

[lamaros]

Ok, so I've finally completed this game, and the first one, and I'm necroing here a bit to post my observations as I don't want to shit up the ME3 thread.

First thing, really enjoyed the game a whole lot, as evidenced by the fact I am now playing through for a second time straight after finishing the first.

With that out of the way...

Are Quarians the stupidest race in the universe? They accidentally make a sentient species, then decide "hmm, better kill it!", then get defeated by said species, and exiled from their homeworld. So they decide to spend their time since wandering space in a big group. They somehow can't find a single planet to place a colony on, despite sending all their youth to live all over the galaxy, and reside in the much more hostile conditions of their ships instead. What the fuck? Is it their delusional persecution complex that is holding them back from going "you know what, fuck it, let's build some colonies on a few planets, even if they have to be climate controlled. It's got to be better than living in ships 24/7 and whinging every three seconds." "Oh no, we have no resources! But we'd better not establish mining bases on planets that we can probably survive in!" I thought these idiots were supposed to be smart?

They do all act like pubescent children, so perhaps it shouldn't be a huge surprise that their mental faculties are severely flawed, but I sure wouldn't mind that much if they all died in an unfortunate space disaster, would serve the entitled idiots right.

Which brings me to Legion. Who decided that 'sentience' now means "maths"? Because that explanation of the Geth division being a math error was pants on head stupid. If their brains only followed programming it makes no sense to call them sentient... Also Legion's 'eyebrows' bit was stupid.

Thane was really well voice acted, it's a shame his writing wasn't up to scratch. Yet another in the good assassin trope? 'Oh no I'm dying time for some self reflection about my son' crap? Seriously?

Mordin is one of the best written and voice acted game characters ever. Truly great. He intimidated both of my Sheps with his eloquence and fast, deep, thinking. I interrupted him a couple of times on my second play through and it just made my character look stupid. Took another trite concept, of scientests playing god, and mede it work! If only Mordin and Thane were written by the same person.

Jack was stupid, since when do deep psychological scars equate to emo bullshit? I was expecting a nutjob who might go off at any moment, but in the end she was more acquiescent than fucking Jacob. I wanted her to try and kill someone in my team, instead she's rapidly developing a mature personality just because Shep keeps popping down to oogle her tits?

Jacob was a well written character for me. Boring, yes, but he was consistent and well delivered. He was my 2IC for the first playthrough, as that was old male shep - who he reasonably looked up to as a father figure and followed unquestionably - and was completely ostracised in the second, as femshep thought of him as a bootlicker without any real skill. A character that 'feels' different depending on how you play your shep is a win for the writers for me, and not many others managed that.

Grunt has less personality than a pet rock. Would have rather had the hamster with a laser mounted to its head.

In general I would say that ME2 was much better written than ME1, and had much better executed game design, but it was very poorly plotted: It did the little things better, but the big things probably weren't as good. I felt bad about getting Ashley killed in ME1, and was guilty because part of the reasoning was I didn't want a racist bitch in everyone's face, but in ME1 people die purely because of loyalty switches? (I thought the whole Tali/Legion, etc choices in the final bit were obvious). I felt more of a dilemma in stopping Mordin killing his old assistant and keeping/flushing the data than in anything to do with the "suicide mission" itself.

I don't know how much of a RPG game it is in the end. You don't really make any big choices, they are mostly 'two ways of doing the exact same thing', superficial to the main plot, or decided by the game and not by you. I got more of a sense of character from what face I put on shep than how I equipped and played him for much of the game, and that is a shame. I can get people killed for not having armor upgrades on the ship, so why can't I kill/kick out one of my party if I don't like what they're up to?

Anyway, that's enough of a rant for now.

Good game, but.

[caladein]

Two thoughts on Jack:

1) Did you not get the scene where you have to talk her and Miranda down from killing each other?

2) She has great lines when you're out-and-about and is probably the character that gains the most depth (for lack of a better word) from being in your team versus just talking on board or during their missions.  The small scene between her and Garrus on Illium is probably my second favorite bit of dialogue in the series after Ashley telling Shepard about her sisters' choices in self-defense training.

[Stormwaltz]

Which brings me to Legion. Who decided that 'sentience' now means "maths"?

Me!

Because that explanation of the Geth division being a math error was pants on head stupid. If their brains only followed programming it makes no sense to call them sentient...

That's a speciesist interpretation, in the ballpark of saying that only life forms with brains like an Earth simian could possibly be sapient. As in humans, intelligence in ME AIs is a combination of hardware (quantum bluebox/brain) and software (programs/consciousness). The geth software consists of thousands of individual programs adding up to a sapient gestalt. As with the programs in your computer, those programs are merely elaborate equations. If the hardware that runs them is damaged or ill-made, or if there's a transcription error or data loss in the replication of a bit of code, the resulting errors in math when running those programs can lead to widely divergent results at runtime. And as Legion itself points out, both species can be brainwashed and made to reach new conclusions. In humans it takes effort. In a computer, all that's required is rewriting some data. Geth are sapient, but the nature of their sapience is not like ours because their physiology is not like ours.

At the time, I was also thinking about cases of head trauma in humans that appear to cause no lasting physical (hardware) damage, but produce alterations in personality.

As for the quarians, the following is my interpretation only:

Are [Israelis] the stupidest race in the universe? ...despite sending their youth to live all over the [world], they reside in the much more hostile conditions of [Israel surrounded by Arabs] instead. What the fuck? Is it their delusional persecution complex that is holding them back from going "you know what, fuck it, let's build some colonies [somewhere we're not hated] even if [it's not the Holy Land]. It's got to be better than living in [an armed camp] 24/7."

Of course it's illogical. People make illogical decisions when emotions and religious belief are involved ("Only quarians have souls. You are a mechanism."). Quarian life is highly focused around the family. When threatened from the outside, their tendency is to congregate and become even more clanish and insular. It's a threat response.

Fun fact: the prayer offered at the outset of Tali's trial - one of the few lines in that mission that I wrote - is based on a Hebrew blessing.

"Blessed are the Ancestors who kept us alive, sustained us, and enabled us to reach this season. Keelah se'lai."
"Blessed are You, Lord, God, King of the Universe, who gave us life, sustained us, and enabled us to reach this season."

[Sjofn]

You're too hard on Thane, imo. Although I have a soft spot for him, since his romance is the only one that didn't either gross me out (either too sexual harrassy or too baggage laden) or just seemed like it Would Not Work (Garrus has no fucking lips for God's sake). Tali's is alright but she's my little sister AND her true love is clearly Kal'Reegar. YEE HAW.

[lamaros]

The Jewish comparison might make sense if they all lived in Isreal and Isreal was a a collection of boats that constantly moved around in international waters... But they don't, and it's not. I don't find the Quarians to be at all believable. Even if some nutjobs clung to the space nomads thinking some splinter groups would have made settlements over time. If someone is bright enough to go "let's make more geth" someone is also going to work out a "let's live somewhere a bit smarter" line...

Jack and Miranda I felt was pretty reasonable, considering miranda was a complete ass. Jack should have killed her or had a nervous breakdown. At worst she acts like a kid from juvie, not a serial killing psychopath with deep childhood trauma who has just come out of heavy security incarceration.

I had to stick a gun in the face of a merc to get him to calm down, but jack is back to normal with just a month of 'there, there'?

And I don't by the geth reasoning. At some point there was a leap from tool to self-aware. That leap by definition must escape the bounds of their programing. They must be able to diverge in other ways. The divergence is presented as a manufacturing error, when clearly their sentience goes beyond those bounds.

[Koyasha]

I agree about the quarians.  I would not be surprised to eventually learn there are quarian colonies, perhaps just one, somewhere distant and not widely known somewhere.  Nothing else seems entirely plausible.  Livable planets are something of a valued resource, so other species may have issues with the quarians settling down in their territory, but surely over three hundred years this hasn't stopped the formation of any quarian colonies at all.  Besides, even if the majority cling to the fleet for no clear or logical reason, there would surely have been at least one small group that decided to settle.

The AI thing, I agree with Stormwaltz's reasoning on it as far as the story goes.  Plus, I don't quite understand why there's the assumption that there has to be some sort of 'leap' to gain self-awareness.  Any program (or, technically it would likely be more accurate to say collection of programs) designed to learn from its input, given enough input, and running on sufficiently powerful hardware seems like it would eventually become self-aware.  Only if the information it's provided is sufficiently limited does it seem as though this isn't an inevitable conclusion.

[HaemishM]

And I don't by the geth reasoning. At some point there was a leap from tool to self-aware. That leap by definition must escape the bounds of their programing. They must be able to diverge in other ways. The divergence is presented as a manufacturing error, when clearly their sentience goes beyond those bounds.

It wasn't a MANUFACTURING error (as that's a physical process) it's a math error - as in the neurons which used to fire this way are now firing this other way. Down deep, a neuron producing "sentient" thought is nothing more than a series of electro-chemical impulses in either an on or an off state. The combination of those binary states is what causes sentience, and our particular type of physiological sentience is dependent on the manner those binary states are achieved. In other words, all thought is math. Geth thought is just more obviously math-y.

[Stormwaltz]

The Jewish comparison might make sense if they all lived in Isreal and Isreal was a a collection of boats that constantly moved around in international waters... But they don't, and it's not.

I believe you're correct to an extent - I don't think it should be inferred that all quarians live on the Migrant Fleet. The Fleet is definitely the largest concentration of them and probably contains the bulk of their population. It's their spiritual homeworld in the absence of their true homeworld - the Liveships contain the last examples of pure Rannoch ecology they have access to. There are quarian enclaves on other worlds, just as there are cities outside Israel with significant Jewish populations. (There may have been one on Omega in the novel Ascension, but I don't clearly recall.) The quarians do not have the political or economic capital to claim and colonize a world they don't find themselves. It's suggested in Ascension and in ME2 it would be a resource stretch for them to organize their own survey effort. Habitable worlds being so rare, you have to check a huge number of stars to find one - that's a few ships for a very long time, or a lot of ships for a few years - which means leaving the fleet less well protected.

Israel isn't a collection of boats, but that's too literal an interpretation. The land is 60% desert (multiple Israeli sources) and only 15.5% arable (CIA World Factbook). They do have to deal with providing food and water to the population.

[Lantyssa]

I agree about the quarians.  I would not be surprised to eventually learn there are quarian colonies, perhaps just one, somewhere distant and not widely known somewhere.  Nothing else seems entirely plausible.  Livable planets are something of a valued resource, so other species may have issues with the quarians settling down in their territory, but surely over three hundred years this hasn't stopped the formation of any quarian colonies at all.  Besides, even if the majority cling to the fleet for no clear or logical reason, there would surely have been at least one small group that decided to settle.

Livable planets for Quarians are difficult.  Their proteins have a different chirality from the vast majority of planets we would consider habitable.  (Also scientifically sound.)  Their bad immune systems cut down on the few other habitable planets.

Being mobile with a fleet means new resources to find as opposed to settling on a barren rock which provides nothing but firm ground to walk upon.

[Merusk]

you have to check a huge number of stars to find one - that's a few ships for a very long time, or a lot of ships for a few years - which means leaving the fleet less well protected.

Or one Commander Shepard and a ME3 minigame.   

[lamaros]

I agree about the quarians.  I would not be surprised to eventually learn there are quarian colonies, perhaps just one, somewhere distant and not widely known somewhere.  Nothing else seems entirely plausible.  Livable planets are something of a valued resource, so other species may have issues with the quarians settling down in their territory, but surely over three hundred years this hasn't stopped the formation of any quarian colonies at all.  Besides, even if the majority cling to the fleet for no clear or logical reason, there would surely have been at least one small group that decided to settle.

Livable planets for Quarians are difficult.  Their proteins have a different chirality from the vast majority of planets we would consider habitable.  (Also scientifically sound.)  Their bad immune systems cut down on the few other habitable planets.

Being mobile with a fleet means new resources to find as opposed to settling on a barren rock which provides nothing but firm ground to walk upon.

Except this is not what they say in the game. They say they are resource starved and no one likes having their fleet in their systems.

The might not be able to habitate many planets naturally, but they would do themselves a favour by making some settlements for rescources and etc, and they will have an easier time of it living in suits on a planet than living in suits on a moving fleet. Every other race seems to have managed mining settlements at the least.

A firm ground to walk on is way more than they have at the moment, and it's not like Geth are actively pursuing them, or that star travel is slow so they need to stick together.

The migrant fleet is a nifty concept, but it makes no sense at all.

[Ingmar]

Spoiler: sometimes people and/or groups don't always do the most sensible thing.

[lamaros]

Which returns me to my first point: Quarians are the stupidest race in the galaxy, that every single member of the species is contributing to a mass delusion.

Of course, I expect this to be ret-conned at some point in to "actually around 35% choose not to return from the pilgrimage, and there are actually several Quarian colonies around the place that no-one really noticed before".

[Ingmar]

Did you find Battlestar Galactica completely ridiculous? The setup there is pretty similar.

[lamaros]

Never watched that, so I can't comment on it. But I assume I would find it pretty silly if it was similar. (That element anyhow. As I have said, I like Mass Effect, one silly bit doesn't stop the other enjoyable parts)

I did just notice as I was playing that Haestrom was formerly a Quarian colony, so obviously they've been able to set them up in the past... just not any in the hundreds of years since.

[Mosesandstick]

As far as I remember the Quarians were looking for new planets, just no dice because of the immune system issues. Though that might have been more clearly explained in ME1.

[Koyasha]

Livable planets for Quarians are difficult.  Their proteins have a different chirality from the vast majority of planets we would consider habitable.  (Also scientifically sound.)  Their bad immune systems cut down on the few other habitable planets.

Being mobile with a fleet means new resources to find as opposed to settling on a barren rock which provides nothing but firm ground to walk upon.

I don't really agree here.  Even if you have to construct entirely enclosed environments to live in, that's still easier than spaceships and has far, far, less danger - you eliminate many of the myriad dangers of space simply by settling on a solid rock.  Furthermore, if that barren rock has some resources, even if you're still growing or importing all your food, you've at least got the ability to do some mining, or you can devote space to manufacturing plants.  One of the main problems on the Migrant Fleet is space, right?  Well, a nice solid planet, even if it has no worthwhile resources, provides space.  Space that can be used for more than just living - they can then produce something.  I doubt they're able to spare space on the fleet for manufacturing or other economic and trading endeavors, but they could certainly do so on a planet.  Import raw materials, sell finished product.  Given their particular expertise they might be able to make a good business out of making and/or repairing ships, even if they were forced to settle on an absolutely worthless planet with no major presence of natural resources (which they may very well be, since no one would be particularly inclined to let them settle anywhere valuable).

However, as Stormwaltz says, I presume we will eventually learn specifically, that there are quarian enclaves or something of that nature somewhere else that contain significant populations numbering in the tens or possibly hundreds of thousands.  It seems a little too far fetched that there wouldn't be any such groups at all, and that there's no quarian communities outside the Migrant Fleet.  We should probably also keep in mind that a 'planet' is a LOT of real estate for a group of people that totals roughly 17 million - they would basically need only a city to settle their entire population, not a planet.  A large one by today's standards, but probably average sized or even small in the setting's time period.

[UnSub]

It's a matter of pride. The Quarians are already seen as the garbage rats of sentient beings and they had the embarrassment to lose their planet to their own creation (and the Geth have been pretty good at killing other races as well). It's a cultural blight that has impacted on other races.

Taking back the home world would not only undo a great problem for the Quarians, it would probably also put (at least) a sizable dent in the Geth.

The Quarians probably could settle down somewhere else, but 1) the galactic politics of such an action would be very difficult if the Quarians want to live near anywhere desirable, and 2) it means they basically give up on their plan to take back the home world for several generations.

The Quarians aren't going to give up the home world for the same reason the Krogan aren't going to become great diplomats: it isn't in their nature.

[lamaros]

How does floating around aimlessly with a (small) limited population, (almost) no friends, and (few) limited resources help them return to their homeworld any more than almost anything else they could be doing?

[tmp]

As for the quarians, the following is my interpretation only:

Are [Israelis] the stupidest race in the universe? ...despite sending their youth to live all over the [world], they reside in the much more hostile conditions of [Israel surrounded by Arabs] instead. What the fuck? Is it their delusional persecution complex that is holding them back from going "you know what, fuck it, let's build some colonies [somewhere we're not hated] even if [it's not the Holy Land]. It's got to be better than living in [an armed camp] 24/7."

Small problem with the analogy -- the Earth is kinda already claimed all over. The galaxy isn't. Meaning it's a comparison between people who don't exactly have choice when it comes to the placement of their country, and ones who do.

(and the "oh no, our immune systems" argument is rather flakey given both the possibility of enclosed environments and how supposedly their current immunity system is this way because they've been spending long time shielding themselves from environment. The adaptation works both ways)

[PalmTrees]

Yeah, mostly Quarians are being stupidly proud for refusing to settle for anything less than reclaiming their home world. There's a faction, represented by one of the admirals, that is pro-colonization though. Due to their protein chirality, immune systems and low political clout they'd have a tougher time of it finding, claiming and colonizing a world than most other races. I recall more than one planet description mentioning how colonization (for anyone) was dangerous due to proximity to the Terminous systems or that the rights to it were under dispute in the Council. I'd still try for it if I were them.

[Merusk]

Well if you're bitching about ME-lore (instead of laughing at my incredibly good joke, you bastards.)   I still don't get why Quarians have to wear suits on their own damn ships.  It makes zero sense to me.

And yes, the should have landed ages ago.  Mishaps on the ground are bad.  Mishaps in space mean you've killed everyone on the ship.  In a population that's only a few million that's a very bad thing.

Not to mention the whole ability to grow your own food with less effort, not having to pay for parts to recycle every bit of your water supply and said water supply ALSO being vulnerable to "oh shit if a ship blows up we lose x% of resources."

That's before you even get in to the "There's only a few million Quarians, less than (as Koyosha points out) the population of ONE STATE in the U.S.  Why does anyone in the galaxy give two shits about them AT ALL?"  

Even assuming a Quarian population of 50mil, that's .8% of Earth's population TODAY  Just Earth.  The elder races have multi-planet empires.  All Quarians dying would impact the galaxy about as much as the deaths in the next 6 minutes in Rhode Island affect you and I.  Again, why does anyone care?

Then; how in hell do they plan on taking over their planet again with a population that would be pressed to take over Earth today, even if every single one of them were a soldier and NOT going to die as soon as you put a hole in their bubble suit.

[Polysorbate80]

Don't the Turians have the same amino acid biochemistry as the Quarians?  And they seem to be doing fine...

[Ingmar]

Doing so fine they've already colonized most of the quarian-friendly planets, no doubt.