Mass Effect 2 *spoilers around pg 29/30*

[Ratman_tf]

Instead of this nickel and dime bullshit, I'd much rather they had a few really beefy expansion packs. I imagine most everyone has finished the game by now. Why not set a mission pack between ME2 and ME3 (Let's call it ME 2.5.) and bundle all the cosmetic doodads and weaponry and the Hammerhead in one big mission series thing? I have no desire to open my wallet to put sunglasses on characters that I'm not going to be playing.

[tmp]

It is kind of odd that they're charging for the cosmetic stuff but giving content away for free.

They probably figured there's large enough Garrus fanbase out there who'll pay two bucks to finally fix the poor guy's armour.

[Koyasha]

I like both the Jack and Garrus reskins, so I'll probably grab this package.  Kasumi is still contingent on her having actual dialogue.

I would definitely like a full expansion or something of that nature, enough to resolve a lot of the light dialogue and undeveloped characters.  A lot of characters have way too little dialogue if you're not romancing them (Garrus in particular sticks out about that).

[eldaec]

Instead of this nickel and dime bullshit, I'd much rather they had a few really beefy expansion packs. I imagine most everyone has finished the game by now. Why not set a mission pack between ME2 and ME3 (Let's call it ME 2.5.)

Because apparently people would complain when you can't get your character to run 2.5 then go back in time to the 2.0 timeline.

[Venkman]

if it's dlc then that's kind of bullshit. The whole shadow broker storyline was a recurring thread in the first and second game and to resolve it in dlc instead of mass effect 3 is a lame money grab. I'm really tired of people thinking anyone gives a good god damn about expanded universe shit. Sure it worked for star wars but while mass effects is a great game i dont want to have to read comics/novels/download dlc and get an iphone app just to know how the fucking story turned out.

Ah, but you care enough about the story to be annoyed enough by how you might need to buy the rest of it  /marketing

In all seriousness, I doubt they'd do that with the Shadow Broker. A pretty big deal in ME1 and set up as sort of Cerberus' competitor in ME2. I think they'll handle it like they handled why Liara doesn't care so much about Shepard in ME2 as she did in ME1. The major points will be discovered in the game, but you'll have a better sense of context if you board the comic/novel/iPhone/DLC. Won't give you any ingame advantage. It's more like what the EU stuff in SW does: geek ego strokes.

[Ratman_tf]

Because apparently people would complain when you can't get your character to run 2.5 then go back in time to the 2.0 timeline.

Then set it in an alternate sideline, like the N7 Missions that don't require you to be anywhere particular in the main plot.

[caladein]

Instead of this nickel and dime bullshit, I'd much rather they had a few really beefy expansion packs. I imagine most everyone has finished the game by now. Why not set a mission pack between ME2 and ME3 (Let's call it ME 2.5.)

Because apparently people would complain when you can't get your character to run 2.5 then go back in time to the 2.0 timeline.

Oddly enough, Mass Effect 2 lets you go back in time just fine unlike the first game.

Oh, but your Incendiary Grenade power won't actually do anything because they just couldn't get it to work in the new game.  You'll be able to respec pretty early though, so it's all good.  Also, since you were using that Cerberus Armor they released, you'll be naked for the first bit of the game, sorry.

[Ollie]

I would definitely like a full expansion or something of that nature, enough to resolve a lot of the light dialogue and undeveloped characters.  A lot of characters have way too little dialogue if you're not romancing them (Garrus in particular sticks out about that).

A very common complaint on Bioware's ME social site. Most of the characters have disappointingly little to say to you outside their loyalty mission.

It would be neat if BW actually developed an "Extended dialogue pack" as touted on the forums. The added depth to characterisation would make the suicide mission all the more poignant. I'm sure the cost of voice acting and scripting gives Bioware pause, however. Not to mention the time, which could be spent developing ME3.

As fun as these contemporary, streamlined Bioware games are, I kind of miss the Baldur's Gate II / Throne of Bhaal days, especially when it comes to character story arcs. If memory serves, Jaheira, Viconia and Aerie had at least a couple of dozen individual romance talks strewn across the game.

I'm sure most of you have read this already, but here is the presentation BW's Christina Norman gave at the GDC2010 titled "Where Did My Inventory Go?" in which she explains some of the design goals behind ME2:

http://prezi.com/6xe1ucvy8egf/where-did-my-inventory-go/

If you ask me, BW went a bit too Spinal Tap on the streamlining. Sure, ME1 deserved a little pruning, but they didn't need to turn the hedge cutter all the way to eleven.

[Fabricated]

The addition of "ammo" and improving the weapons was nice but the "base upgrade" thing was a failure in my opinion. I have to do a bunch of really boring-ass planet probing for mats, scan random stuff I come across during missions, spend a bunch of credits at various markets for upgrades that are no-brainers, then I just click "buy" on the upgrade list when I'm back on the ship until I'm out of resources or upgrades. I don't particularly notice any of the upgrades either due to how the game scales.

The inventory and gigantic piles of useless shit in ME1 were bad, but one of the funner parts of RPGs for me is equipment management and dealing with tradeoffs. It's tough to do right though. If you have a gigantic backpack and the ability to refit everywhere at all times, you basically end up having to stop every few fights to swap in/out items. Having to decide what weapons and armor you're using for a WHOLE mission was a good idea.

[Stormwaltz]

A very common complaint on Bioware's ME social site. Most of the characters have disappointingly little to say to you outside their loyalty mission.

The writing schedule was shorter than ME1, and we had more characters to develop in that time. In ME1, Kaidan and Ashley had about 8K and 10K words of dialogue on the Normandy. In ME2, the longest character had 6K words. Several were budgeted at preposterously less -- IIRC, the original budget for Tali and Jack was 1500 words each on the Normandy (and to Brian Kindregan's credit, he got damned close with Jack's script by making her so brusque).

It was an intentional choice to focus the character development on the loyalty missions rather than on talking heads in the Normandy. You get interesting character development, and a fun mission. Ideally, anyway.

[Ingmar]

Dave Gaider made a similar comment recently about how they moved the dialogue for the new characters in DA:A out from the 'camp' to environmental triggers in areas as you walk around. It still feels a little thin, though, and I think the reason for that is unless you walk all around every area with every person you're going to be missing character development on at least some things.

I prefer the ME2 hybrid approach where there's still a reason to talk to people on the ship I think.

[Koyasha]

I haven't gotten to play Awakening due to vidcard issues, but I like the idea of the above description, but contingent on there being very few npcs so each of them can have lots of dialogue, and so that I don't have to replay the game 50 times to see a handful of slightly different dialogues.  I want to replay a few times, but I also want to see the majority of interactions in 3-7 playthroughs, and I don't want to do a playthrough with a different party only to have a dozen lines be slightly different throughout the game, with little effect to those differences.

I've got a few more thoughts to elaborate once I get off my phone and to a keyboard.

[snowwy]

Just replayed ME1 with a new character since i missed/messed up some choices, and wanted a full paragon char for some reason. Played through as an engineer.
Then imported said character to ME2 for my 3 playthrough, and quickly realized that i still think ME1 is the better game. Ok, inventory and Mako kinda sucked, but not half as much as planet-scanning and Jacob.
God i wanna stab him in the eye repeatedly. Don't really know why though.
Actually, 4 hours into ME2 i am considering just quitting. Running around doing shittastic loyalty-missions makes me stabby. It's just so damn linear. Even the char-progress on levelups feels dull.
ME1 is still in my "play-list", ME2 is not gonna be for long

[Koyasha]

Ok, as to the amount of dialogue.  Me, I think cutting down the number of characters to the point where the various characters can have major interactions in pretty much every dialogue would be a good step.  I don't need to have ten+ characters available for my party if that means each of them has a shallow personality and lacks interaction in everything I do.  I'd be happy with 4 characters that have something to say about almost everything, and talk to each other and me quite often, involving themselves in everything I do and everything I see.  I agree that focusing character development in places other than the home base, whether that be party camp or the Normandy or whatever, is a good idea - but it should be everywhere, not just in a single mission showcasing that character.

If I pictured ME2 with a compressed cast of 4-6 characters, with each one giving lots of interaction everywhere, I would like to see a conversation before the mission - a little talk on what we're doing and how we expect to do it, similar to the shuttle-conversation on approach to Freedom's Progress - with interaction with both of the characters I have with me, them giving me opinions as well as talking to each other.  During the mission, anytime I converse with someone, they should both talk too, unless there's some specific reason for them to be standing silently and saying nothing.  Surely they have thoughts and opinions, they should voice them!  When we encounter anything unusual or interesting, if there's time to talk about it, they should do so.  And if there's a decision to be made, it should be discussed in-depth, and they should argue with each other instead of just stating opinions and leaving it at that.  Think Ash and Kaidan on Virmire where they argued briefly about who to go with the Salarian teams.  Finally, after the mission on the Normandy, everyone, even the ones that didn't go, should have some dialogue about the mission.  Not just a debrief session (which should damn well include the entire crew, that I felt was one of ME2's biggest failings, that only a couple crew members were present at each mission briefing/debriefing) but a little bit of individual conversation about what we just did, when I go talk to them.  Indeed, this'd be a great time to show that the teammates that weren't in your immediate party were doing something useful and not just sitting on their hands - have them talk about what they did in support of the mission.

Basically I'd be a lot happier with a few, really well developed party members that interact with me constantly, than with a whole bunch of party members that only interact once in a while, or during their own special loyalty mission.  I expect a lot of people would also prefer that, even though I'm sure a lot like the lots of characters system as it was in ME2.  I like it ok the way it is, and I do think the characters are well written considering the sort of limitations Stormwaltz mentions above, but if characters are going to be budgeted to a number of words, I'd rather they budget lots of words for a few characters instead of a few words for lots of characters.

ME1 I should note had the issue of personalities based on where the character was standing.  I would never ever want to see that happen again.  A character should have a definite personality and definite opinions on various matters, and they should never waffle on the subject depending on who else is in the party at the moment.  If Ashley thinks I should kill the rachni queen, then she shouldn't change her mind and counsel letting her go just because Wrex instead of Liara happens to be the other party member.

[rk47]

The debriefing did not take all the crew members into account since Bioware wrote too many characters in. The permutations of the dialogues drove them insane, hence they decided it should be limited to the 4 non-optional crew members, namely Shepard, Jacob, Miranda, and Mordin.

Imagine the possible permutations of dialogues should they put EVERYONE in the debriefing

IF Thane is in party THEN >>>> when does he start talking about unacceptable collateral damage?
IF Grunt is in party THEN >>>> when does he start saying he enjoys the violence?
IF Tali is in party THEN>>>>> when is she going to bitch about not trusting Cerberus?

so on...

They had no choice. They made a mistake in adding too many recruitables and couldn't flesh it well. The non surviving squaddies didn't even get a respectable final words to say when they didn't make it. "Too many of them----*collapses*" is so forgettable.

What I would really like is the survivor mission template being used more often. Have a secondary team doing another objective while Shepard lead another one. That way, you get to utilize more of your squad members instead leaving useless people behind to rot.

[Fabricated]

A very common complaint on Bioware's ME social site. Most of the characters have disappointingly little to say to you outside their loyalty mission.

The writing schedule was shorter than ME1, and we had more characters to develop in that time. In ME1, Kaidan and Ashley had about 8K and 10K words of dialogue on the Normandy. In ME2, the longest character had 6K words. Several were budgeted at preposterously less -- IIRC, the original budget for Tali and Jack was 1500 words each on the Normandy (and to Brian Kindregan's credit, he got damned close with Jack's script by mCan iaking her so brusque).

It was an intentional choice to focus the character development on the loyalty missions rather than on talking heads in the Normandy. You get interesting character development, and a fun mission. Ideally, anyway.

Can it wait? I'm in the middle of some calibrations.

[Ollie]

A very common complaint on Bioware's ME social site. Most of the characters have disappointingly little to say to you outside their loyalty mission.

The writing schedule was shorter than ME1, and we had more characters to develop in that time. In ME1, Kaidan and Ashley had about 8K and 10K words of dialogue on the Normandy. In ME2, the longest character had 6K words. Several were budgeted at preposterously less -- IIRC, the original budget for Tali and Jack was 1500 words each on the Normandy (and to Brian Kindregan's credit, he got damned close with Jack's script by mCan iaking her so brusque).

It was an intentional choice to focus the character development on the loyalty missions rather than on talking heads in the Normandy. You get interesting character development, and a fun mission. Ideally, anyway.

Can it wait? I'm in the middle of some calibrations.

Zing! 

Poor Garrus. Unless you're on a romance track with him, he sure loves those weapon systems.

Conceptually, I think the loyalty mission driven character development works quite nicely. It gives the party interaction momentum, as characterisation takes place during a nice, compact mini story instead of standing around on Normandy. The downside is that the experience is always the same on different playthroughs, and your squad mates only come alive in their isolated little stories. Sure, the paragon / renegade options liven up the actual loyalty missions a bit, but I never could shake the feeling that all my squad mates only existed in their self-contained little bubbles.

Plus, I think the time and budget constraints Stormwaltz mentioned really threw a spanner in the works. Some of the character arcs are enjoyable, but there's just very little meat on the bones. The small number of individual conversations and the brevity of the talks themselves spread the experience a little thin, and make some of the romance scenes feel a bit tacked-on and lacking in emotional believability.

Still, it's not all bad. I recently fired up Jade Empire and managed to miss the Silk Fox romance altogether, because I didn't realise early on I should have talked to her repeatedly at camp to move things along. So no nookie for me. 

[LK]

OK, I just finished the game.

I am extremely disappointed that staying loyal to Liara resulted in no nookie. Also, they did it again, and I think it's a trope now: let's have sex before the big mission!

Mass Effect 3 better let me keep Liara around.

The game has way too many good lines.

[Velorath]

Instead of this nickel and dime bullshit, I'd much rather they had a few really beefy expansion packs. I imagine most everyone has finished the game by now. Why not set a mission pack between ME2 and ME3 (Let's call it ME 2.5.) and bundle all the cosmetic doodads and weaponry and the Hammerhead in one big mission series thing? I have no desire to open my wallet to put sunglasses on characters that I'm not going to be playing.

The costume pack is the only DLC so far I'd call nickel and dime bullshit and it probably isn't the kind of project that would be diverting resources away from more substantial content being created.  The Hammerhead and Kasumi DLC packs seem like stuff that just didn't get completed in time for release (the game has vehicle controls already listed, and people found a file in the PC version that showed Kasumi in the character select screen).

Also trailer for Kasumi DLC (potential spoilers).

[caladein]

Once I got past my usual BioWare game cycle of "Do 1-2 missions and run around camp trying to talk to everyone" about 20 hours I didn't mind that much.

Looking back, I do think I know the same about how both Miranda and Ashley feel about their families, it's just one happened with her shooting someone in the face and the other was a nice conversation involving synecdoches and the line "big skirts and tops you had to tie her into".

Both work, and I probably had the same amount of fun doing each, but I felt like with Ashley that she had a brain inside that military suit while Miranda always said she was a super-genius, but it never really came out when I played with her.

[Ollie]

I felt like with Ashley that she had a brain inside that military suit while Miranda always said she was a super-genius, but it never really came out when I played with her.

I sort of agree. It's the old "show, don't tell" adage. We never got to see enough of Miranda to really judge for ourselves whether she deserved her genius moniker.

On a somewhat related note, I have to say I groaned my way through much of the Miranda romance, or what little of it there was. Some of Male Shepard's dialogue came across as really forced, and not just because of Mark "the Emotional Marathon Man" Meer either, who always rushes through his lines like the building is on fire. The BW writing team didn't quite manage to nail Male Shepard as mature and assertive without veering towards douchy or slightly retarded.

It's not exactly news that Bioware has historically struggled with assertive male romantic leads. They only seem to be comfortable writing slightly goofy and sweet male love interests, such as Carth, Sky or Alistair – the Xanders of the Bioware universe. Though Carth obviously deserves special recognition for his unique combination of whininess and utter soul-crushing boredom.

[Ingmar]

So much of that is down to the voice actor, though. Alistair's dude is just flat out better at it than Carth/Kaidan. It isn't just the writing - I'm not even sure I'd say it is *mostly* the writing.

[NowhereMan]

On inventory stuff: I think adding in item stacking and making merchants single [buy] options that you could sort according to item type would have pretty much sorted all the issues I had with items. Throw in having all party member's equivalent equipped in a sidebar when you select something would make everything gravy. The problem (imho) wasn't so much having lots and lots of junk items but the fact that those rapidly grew into unnavigable reams of items with no easy way of seeing just how many shotguns or ammo powerups you had in total. Add in some Diablo style obvious naming system for quality/rarity of items and it wouldn't have been nearly as much of a chore especially if you had one button to pick a single item and one to pick a stack for sale/omni-gel. Swap that sort of sensible inventory management for the fucking planet scanning any day of the week.

Hell if they'd taken the Mako missions and made them slightly less freeform (and made sure none of the planets consisted of nothing but series of ridges that made driving in any fashion other that constant stop-start an exercise in why you shouldn't drink after a bottle of whisky).

[eldaec]

Though Carth obviously deserves special recognition for his unique combination of whininess and utter soul-crushing boredom.

You're ignoring Bao Dur again. There has never been as whiny or boring a character created by any human form of expression in the history of mankind, be it game, film, play, book, tapestry or cave painting.

[Ollie]

I bow to your superior wisdom, good sir.

Though we can't exactly pin Bao-Dur on Bioware. That was Obsidian all the way.

[lesion]

Bao-Dur was a champ. Gonna get all emotional about the war? No, I'm gonna chill out. Build a remote. Punch some shields.

If presented with a Mako he'd punch the crap out of it. That's why he's awesome.

[tmp]

It's not exactly news that Bioware has historically struggled with assertive male romantic leads. They only seem to be comfortable writing slightly goofy and sweet male love interests, such as Carth, Sky or Alistair – the Xanders of the Bioware universe.

I'd argue that has a lot to do with general difficuly of having an NPC who has their own mind, will and actually takes charge in a RPG -- the players get awfully touchy and all pissed off when a script dares to ignore who holds the mouse, and does more than just tentatively ask if they're jumping high enough.

[Ollie]

I agree. It's a fine line and a balancing act, writing an NPC that displays some independence but doesn't come across as aggravatingly insubordinate to the player. Especially in an RPG such as ME, where the player expects a degree of deference, seeing as the protagonist is supposed to be a commanding officer in charge of a crew.

To their credit, Bioware does pull it off on occasion. I didn't particularly like Ashley's bigoted brand of xenophobia, but at least she displayed some convictions, which gave her character depth. Morrigan in DA:O can be a bit predictable in her Darwinian nihilism, but she does display her values consistently enough to create a believable illusion of a real personality.

It's just the male romantic leads in Bioware games that really get me down. They all seem to be cut from the same homogenous boring cloth: There's the doormat, or the doormat with jokes. Take your pick.

I was so bored with Carth in KotOR that I actually had the hots for Mandalore, and he is as one-dimensional a character as they come, always yammering about his Basilisk. Come to think of it, Zaeed wouldn't be a bad pick for a romanceable character in ME2. Just shave off twenty years, slap on some dialogue and spin him through the plastic surgery doohickey on the Normandy's med bay. Hey presto, a bad-ass male romance option. A first for Bioware.

[Tebonas]

Doesn't work that way. The romance option text would completely evaporate all bad-assness.

[Ollie]

Only if you think that a romantic encounter and bad-assness can't exist in the same context, which is entirely a question of subjective perception.

I personally don't think being lovey-dovey somehow intrinsically negates any other character facets – not at least if we stick to semi-ambitious characterisation, such as what Bioware attempts to do.

If you're talking about adding a romance option to Master Chief, I agree completely.

[LK]

If the writers share my inexperience with romance and human interaction, then I wouldn't be surprised that the male leads came off the way they did.

Keep in mind who female Shepard is though: Alpha Bitch. Whether you're Paragon or Renegade, you are one STRONG personality that nobody wants to fuck with. Vulnerable feminine side isn't in your vocabulary, waiting for a strong man to sweep you off your feet. To hit it home, I don't expect to ever see female Shephard in a dress.

[Ollie]

If the writers share my inexperience with romance and human interaction, then I wouldn't be surprised that the male leads came off the way they did.

This is a bit of a slippery slope, don't you think – subscribing to the idea that meaning in literature is derived from the author. Literary criticism has evolved leaps and bounds since the 1940's when Wimsatt and Beardsley coined their theory on the intentional fallacy, but the idea still holds true to some extent.

We'd be selling the Bioware writers short in assuming their social awkwardness, whether in fact real or imaginary, in any way impedes their ability to portray compelling male love interests. Writers can and often do transcend their socio-cultural boundaries.

That doesn't mean good writing and bad writing suddenly stopped existing, though.  

As far as the dress goes, I think you're right in saying it would be wishful thinking. I for one would love to see female Shepard in a dress, but it's really unlikely given the direction Bioware took with ME2. They seem to be gunning for a melodramatic space opera, not some in-depth psychological exploration of an emotionally scarred war veteran. The dress would be an unnecessary complication.

[tmp]

Keep in mind who female Shepard is though: Alpha Bitch. Whether you're Paragon or Renegade, you are one STRONG personality that nobody wants to fuck with. Vulnerable feminine side isn't in your vocabulary, waiting for a strong man to sweep you off your feet. To hit it home, I don't expect to ever see female Shephard in a dress.

Doesn't this new Kasumi DLC thing include an undercover mission and mingling with rich snobs? For some reason that makes me imagine Shepard in evening dress attending event like the opera from 5th Element. And no, can totally see her pull off the look.

As for the assertive and badass male leads... i'll refer to rule34 on just how well that'd possibly work out. (link is actually not too-nsfw oddly enough, though the content might be... questionable)

[Ollie]

 

If only Turian DNA wasn't toxic to humans. *sigh*

Anyway, I'm still hoping Bioware tried their hand at developing a more bad-ass romantic option at some point; if not for ME3 then some other franchise. They do have talented writers working for them, and I think there could be room for a middle ground between homicidal Garrus over there and another Mr. Vanilla McWASP from Middletown Oh-My-God-I'm-So-Bored.

[tmp]

Now that i think of it, didn't Zevran/Leliana in Dragon Age work fairly well in that aspect? As i understand it, that's more of byproduct of these two characters actually trying to cautiously probe which way the player's character swing and if the romance path should be closed should they not wish it, but it can pretty much result in them appearing to actively try and woo the player instead of waiting for the opposite to happen.