Dollhouse

[Trippy]

The episode seemed rushed. They didn't need to shove in quite as many elements as they did.

That's because this was actually the second episode so the stuff that seemed "shoved in" is actually stuff that started in the unaired Pilot.

Edit: is

[Prospero]

Ah, so they learned their lesson from Firefly. 

[Velorath]

The episode seemed rushed. They didn't need to shove in quite as many elements as they did.

That's because this was actually the second episode so the stuff that seemed "shoved in" is actually stuff that started in the unaired Pilot.

Edit: is

Not exactly.  This episode was redone a while back after Whedon decided he wasn't going to use the Pilot anymore.

[Trippy]

The episode seemed rushed. They didn't need to shove in quite as many elements as they did.

That's because this was actually the second episode so the stuff that seemed "shoved in" is actually stuff that started in the unaired Pilot.

Edit: is

Not exactly.  This episode was redone a while back after Whedon decided he wasn't going to use the Pilot anymore.

Yes he had to put in the important stuff that was in the Pilot into this episode but it still feels "choppy" because many of the Pilot details still had to be left out like the bits of evidence the FBI agent has collected on the existence of the Dollhouse and who that person at the end is.

[chargerrich]

Okay so I tuned in after reading about it here and it sounded intriquing.

Worst.show.ever.

I did not watch buffy either so I guess thats par for the course. I would also like to add that Eliza is nothing special and a horrid actress.

[stray]

Worst show ever? Give me a break.. You people are fucking ignorant. 

[Samwise]

I finally caught this on Hulu and thought it was really meh.  I think I only like Whedon stuff when he's being funny and he has actors with good chemistry.  Firefly was funny and had good chemistry.  Dr. Horrible was funny and had good chemistry.  This isn't funny and has negative chemistry.

[Tarami]

After rewatching this with a friend, I have to say it's probably the most bland of any Whedon series. For reference, I can't stand Buffy, I can almost make myself watch Angel but I generally like Firefly. Haven't seen any others. Whedon's series really, really need a tight, likable ensemble, because there's fuck-all else to them. The plot is weak, the acting is generally weak and the production is cheap and that goes for all his series.

To chip in on the Whedon's Women discussion:
What I've never liked about the way Whedon writes and incorporates women is that he's always writing them as some kind of fan service. Firefly is almost criminally guilty in this regard (the happy prostitute and the cute geek.) They're almost without exception put on a pedistal to serve as role models for their related characteristics. An "evil" woman is just perfectly evil. Flawed, perhaps, but shining. He doesn't write women who are cruel, inconsistent, petty, truly amoral or aggressive. There's no dirt nor taint, no destructive frustrations. All those things are left to the men.

[stray]

He doesn't write women who are cruel, inconsistent, petty, truly amoral or aggressive. There's no dirt nor taint, no destructive frustrations.

That's exactly what Faith was (Dushku's character in Buffy/Angel). She couldn't be trusted, and he never cared to resolve it or make her change 180.

[Samprimary]

dollhouse more like dullhouse huhu huhu hu

[UnSub]

He doesn't write women who are cruel, inconsistent, petty, truly amoral or aggressive. There's no dirt nor taint, no destructive frustrations.

That's exactly what Faith was (Dushku's character in Buffy/Angel). She couldn't be trusted, and he never cared to resolve it or make her change 180.

My memory of her is more of a misguided woman who was manipulated by a male figure to get what he wanted out of her. But it's been a while since I've seen those episodes.

Whedon does write some women who are petty - the redhead from "Angel", Cordelia, the goddess - but I agree with Tarami's gist. I'm not saying that he is misogynistic in the vein of, say, Frank Miller, but I don't think he deserves some of the equality kudos he's received. Especially where his series have run on for a while.

[Tarami]

He doesn't write women who are cruel, inconsistent, petty, truly amoral or aggressive. There's no dirt nor taint, no destructive frustrations.

That's exactly what Faith was (Dushku's character in Buffy/Angel). She couldn't be trusted, and he never cared to resolve it or make her change 180.

She was all those things, yes, which I think reinforces my argument. He can't handle the darker nuances when he's writing female characters. Not that he's a master at the details of characterization at all, but there are some degrees to it.

I'm not saying he's a misogynist. That term is way too liberally thrown around on these forums, in my opinion. I'll say I think he's just a hack when he comes to writing these characters. He knows what to write to make them not appear like frail schoolgirls (eg. tiny girls physically kicking brute ass) but he doesn't seem to grasp that they're the same bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling as the men he's writing.

[stray]

He doesn't write women who are cruel, inconsistent, petty, truly amoral or aggressive. There's no dirt nor taint, no destructive frustrations.

That's exactly what Faith was (Dushku's character in Buffy/Angel). She couldn't be trusted, and he never cared to resolve it or make her change 180.

She was all those things, yes, which I think reinforces my argument.

How does that reinforce your argument? Nothing wrong with having all of those qualities because you even listed "inconsistent" as a criteria. Anyhow, you asked for more complicated version of female antagonist, and she summed it up.

My memory of her is more of a misguided woman who was manipulated by a male figure to get what he wanted out of her. But it's been a while since I've seen those episodes.

She was already complicated before that. Unlike Buffy, she got off on the power of being a slayer. They make her out to be the cool kid at first, and Buffy got a little inspired by her, until Faith's attitude took a dark side. She used power in ways that had nothing to do with slaying. And then there were times where she'd cause an accident, and end up just justifying it... To the point that she ended up justifying accidentally killing someone, instead of coping with guilt and fixing it. This is what ended up making her a darker and darker character, and finally working on the mayor's side -- her inability to deal with mistakes, and thinking that what everyone else demanded was too much work, etc.. She was never manipulated by the Mayor. He was a goofy character who didn't criticize her or give her shit.

[stray]

Hmm, Darla and the Wolfram and Hart Lawyer chick weren't exactly simplistic either.

[Fordel]

Saffron? (From Firefly).

[Merusk]

Well that was tedious and poorly done.  Guess I watch Cartoon Network at 9 on Fridays while waiting for Galactica.

[Trippy]

I thought it was better than the first one, at least. Dunno why they didn't just use this one as the new Pilot since at least it was a proper "mythology" episode.

[HaemishM]

I'm finding it exceedingly hard to give a shit about any of the characters or the story. I'm trying to like it, but the only two people I give a shit about are the cop and the Willow-like hottie with the lasagna living across from the FBI guy. Anyone want to lay odds that Willow-girl is an active? It's just that everyone on the show is so morally bankrupt - even the cop is enabling the entire dissolution of a person's personality. Hell, whoring the actives out in situations where the client is likely to want (and get) sex is akin to spiritual and physical rape. The whole concept of the dollhouse is so goddamn repugnant and yet the story is constantly rubbing our face in that. Alpha is the GOOD GUY. The FBI guy is the good guy, but thoroughly uninteresting - I don't blame the actor because the writing for him is terrible. I'm thinking one more episode is about all I can take unless it improves.

[Tarami]

How does that reinforce your argument? Nothing wrong with having all of those qualities because you even listed "inconsistent" as a criteria. Anyhow, you asked for more complicated version of female antagonist, and she summed it up.

Because it makes her so much more of the exception. Nevertheless, I never asked for complicated characters. What I want to see are female characters whose "evil" Whedon doesn't desperately try to motivate. Some people just have seriously wonky values. It doesn't always need motivating. It always stems from some experience, but we don't need all that spelled out.

Speaking of Saffron, she is a typical example of this. She's pretty, intelligent and an extremely sleek conman. Then she says she's doing it "for fun." Does that make sense to you? It doesn't to me.

Then we have a character like Rat (I think that's his name), the Irish fence that Reynolds occasionally do business with. A weak, petty but enterprising character who is always looking out for himself first of all. He's a pathetic bastard, so he's compensating with thugs and bad manners. That's how people work. They are weak. They get by through compensation and playing off their strengths and belief in what they do is, on the whole, something they have to do.

Going to watch the new Dullhaus.

[stray]

How does that reinforce your argument? Nothing wrong with having all of those qualities because you even listed "inconsistent" as a criteria. Anyhow, you asked for more complicated version of female antagonist, and she summed it up.

Because it makes her so much more of the exception. Nevertheless, I never asked for complicated characters. What I want to see are female characters whose "evil" Whedon doesn't desperately try to motivate. Some people just have seriously wonky values. It doesn't always need motivating. It always stems from some experience, but we don't need all that spelled out.

Her motivations are never really spelled out. Not overreaching ones at least. You never know about her past. It never gets into why she's the way she is, other than that she wasn't surrounded by good influences like Buffy (friends, family, and a good mentor like Giles. I think her guide was killed or something). That was Whedon's only motivation for introducing her at first, from what I gather. The other thing I'm just trying to say is that the thing that makes her trouble are also her positive qualities.

Anyhow, it's one of the better characters the shows have, I think. Like I said much earlier in the thread, I only really like Spike and her. And Giles, I guess too. I could watch shows with nothing but them.

[Trippy]

I'm finding it exceedingly hard to give a shit about any of the characters or the story. I'm trying to like it, but the only two people I give a shit about are the cop and the Willow-like hottie with the lasagna living across from the FBI guy. Anyone want to lay odds that Willow-girl is an active? It's just that everyone on the show is so morally bankrupt - even the cop is enabling the entire dissolution of a person's personality. Hell, whoring the actives out in situations where the client is likely to want (and get) sex is akin to spiritual and physical rape. The whole concept of the dollhouse is so goddamn repugnant and yet the story is constantly rubbing our face in that. Alpha is the GOOD GUY. The FBI guy is the good guy, but thoroughly uninteresting - I don't blame the actor because the writing for him is terrible. I'm thinking one more episode is about all I can take unless it improves.

Yes the entire premise is so horribly broken I'm not even sure how this show came into existence except for maybe FOX felt a bit sorry for screwing up Firefly so badly that they gave Whedon another shot and allowed him to do whatever the hell he wanted. I don't have a problem suspending disbelief when watching these kinds of things but there needs to be at least some internal logic and consistency to the premise.

Here we have an organization that develops some amazing technology and what do they do with it? Run an incredibly high priced escort service. At least in shows like Alias, My Own Worst Enemy and Bionic Woman you had the extra-ordinary protagonist working as some sort of secret agent for a secret agency/organization which gives the writers a reason to put the protagonist is all sort of extra-ordinary situations. In Dollhouse, it's all about the money.

On top of all that not only do perhaps hundreds if not thousands of clients know about the existence of Dollhouse (they are up to their 17th Active now with Sierra so that's a lot of clients serviced), they know its *exact* location (cause apparently they all meet in the boss lady's office which is located in the Dollhouse building) and they know all about the memory wipe/implant setup. That FBI agent has to be one of the most incompetent agents in history if he can't find the Dollhouse given how many people out there know exactly where it's located and can identify the Actives by sight.

[Wasted]

I think they are setting up the Dollhouse as the villain, There are no redeeming motivations behind the set-up and all the characters are too cold.  When Echo inevitably is rescued by the FBI guy (who will probably be kicked out of the FBI by then), probably with her minder in tow the story will begin for real. The story of a group of broken people trying to rediscover their old lives whilst trying to save other actives from the Dollhouse seems better.  Whether they take too long to get there and people lose interest I guess is the challenge.  The second episode was better than the first.

[Riggswolfe]

I think they are setting up the Dollhouse as the villain, There are no redeeming motivations behind the set-up and all the characters are too cold.  When Echo inevitably is rescued by the FBI guy (who will probably be kicked out of the FBI by then), probably with her minder in tow the story will begin for real. The story of a group of broken people trying to rediscover their old lives whilst trying to save other actives from the Dollhouse seems better.  Whether they take too long to get there and people lose interest I guess is the challenge.  The second episode was better than the first.

I agree with this. In particular, the number two guy is very clearly being setup as the villain. My guess is that the dollhouse started with some kind of ideal behind it but it's gotten perverted over time. I also think they must have some kind of government help and/or connection.

I'm actually somewhat intrigued by Alpha. Why did he spare Echo? Why did he kill other actives? I can see killing some guards and stuff but the other actives? Also, they showed Echo retaining a little from her last mission (the shoulder bump thing). Clearly, the show is going to have her retaining more and more, but to what end?

The main thing the show lacks right now is a good ensemble. Buffy, Firefly, and Angel worked (or not if you're a Whedon hater) because of their ensembles. Dollhouse needs to figure out a way for more interactions.

So far, characters I'm intrigued by:

Echo
Her handler
The computer nerd
The scarred doctor
The FBI agent (a little)
The head of Dollhouse

On another note, this weeks ep was better, though I knew what the guy was going to do. He just gave off a vibe I guess.

[kaid]

I can't say I enjoy this show much yet I think mainly like that one christian slater show that got axed the freaking whole premise of the show is so damn silly that its hard to suspend disbelief long enough to enjoy it.

Meh.

[stray]

No big loss there. Who the hell wants to see Christian Slater's crazy botox mug anyways?




Then again, most people in Hollywood look just as stupid, I guess.

[Tarami]

I agree with this. In particular, the number two guy is very clearly being setup as the villain. My guess is that the dollhouse started with some kind of ideal behind it but it's gotten perverted over time. I also think they must have some kind of government help and/or connection.

Problem being, as Trippy and others already pointed out - the entire goddamn world knows about Dollhouse and exactly what Dollhouse is up to. Except the FBI. It's going to take some pretty epic suspension of disbelief if the suggested plotline would become reality.

Which brings up a related question - obviously unrelated people can find them, otherwise they wouldn't be getting new clients like the guy in the latest episode. So they're really not acting from the shadows in any way.

No, it'd need to be something different entirely.

[Riggswolfe]

I agree with this. In particular, the number two guy is very clearly being setup as the villain. My guess is that the dollhouse started with some kind of ideal behind it but it's gotten perverted over time. I also think they must have some kind of government help and/or connection.

Problem being, as Trippy and others already pointed out - the entire goddamn world knows about Dollhouse and exactly what Dollhouse is up to. Except the FBI. It's going to take some pretty epic suspension of disbelief if the suggested plotline would become reality.

Which brings up a related question - obviously unrelated people can find them, otherwise they wouldn't be getting new clients like the guy in the latest episode. So they're really not acting from the shadows in any way.

No, it'd need to be something different entirely.

1) I suspect it's a word of mouth type of thing
2) This is also why I think they have some government connections. Come on, can't you see something like the Dollhouse as a testbed for some CIA plot?

[Trippy]

1) I suspect it's a word of mouth type of thing
2) This is also why I think they have some government connections. Come on, can't you see something like the Dollhouse as a testbed for some CIA plot?

Sure but then why you would you go around telling everybody about your technology? Wouldn't you try and keep the technology a secret and use the Actives as secret agents on discreet missions with perfect covers as they wouldn't be able to reveal who they were working for?

[Tebonas]

The entire premise is retarded. But at least in the second episode it becomes clear that the Dollhouse is the villain of the piece and it takes away that nagging "do they want me to sympathize with the mindraping pimps?" question.

I hope the series stays on air till Alpha and Echo hunt them and their rich pervert clientele down together.

[Wasted]

They mention for that bow and arrow guy that even his referral was faked so obviously they have that sort of system set up for existing members to be able to refer others. There may be lots of people that know of the Dollhouse like some kind of urban legend that don't have the connections to find them, like the FBI guy obviously so that suits the purpose.  The idea of secret organisations servicing the desires of the elite isn't a new one.  Probably sometime soon they will take action against a client with too big a mouth, mentioning a whole host of confidentially clauses in the contracts they make the customers sign to reinforce to the viewer the place is a protected secret

[Riggswolfe]

Sure but then why you would you go around telling everybody about your technology? Wouldn't you try and keep the technology a secret and use the Actives as secret agents on discreet missions with perfect covers as they wouldn't be able to reveal who they were working for?

In their case it's basically advertising. I mean, their whole advertising slogan is "We can give you a girl/guy who can be or do anything you want!"

[schild]

I tried watching it, but after Eliza opened her mouth after the motorcycle race, and then the dancing, that's about it. This is very obviously trash. The pilot is supposed to interest me, maybe when I was 14 this would've been interesting.

Also, no more Cartier heart necklaces for girlfriends. I almost feel bad for giving one to an ex 6 years ago now.

Edit: Talk about a double edged sword, I want this shit to bomb hard but I can't let it take Terminator with it. >_<

[Riggswolfe]

I tried watching it, but after Eliza opened her mouth after the motorcycle race, and then the dancing, that's about it. This is very obviously trash. The pilot is supposed to interest me, maybe when I was 14 this would've been interesting.

Also, no more Cartier heart necklaces for girlfriends. I almost feel bad for giving one to an ex 6 years ago now.

Edit: Talk about a double edged sword, I want this shit to bomb hard but I can't let it take Terminator with it. >_<

Schild, give it up. You hated it before a single roll of film was done because of who was involved with it. It's not great TV, I'm not 100% convinced it is good TV yet. But you were determined to hate it and went in excited about your hateon for it because of Joss Whedon. At least stop pretending you ever intended to give it a shot on its merits.

[schild]

I tried watching it, but after Eliza opened her mouth after the motorcycle race, and then the dancing, that's about it. This is very obviously trash. The pilot is supposed to interest me, maybe when I was 14 this would've been interesting.

Also, no more Cartier heart necklaces for girlfriends. I almost feel bad for giving one to an ex 6 years ago now.

Edit: Talk about a double edged sword, I want this shit to bomb hard but I can't let it take Terminator with it. >_<

Schild, give it up. You hated it before a single roll of film was done because of who was involved with it. It's not great TV, I'm not 100% convinced it is good TV yet. But you were determined to hate it and went in excited about your hateon for it because of Joss Whedon. At least stop pretending you ever intended to give it a shot on its merits.

Hey, when I give something a shot, I give something a fair shot. Even Firefly I watched all of and then proceeded to get Serenity on hd-dvd because I was told they finally dealt with the whole reaper thing which was the only part of the series I was interested in (as it had that whole Event Horizon feel (granted it was a ripped off idea). Dollhouse wasn't worth the chance and Firefly still felt schlocky. But one series I made it all the way through and the other I couldn't get through 10 minutes of the episode. I even made it through an entire season of Buffy before dropping the axe on ever watching that again.

At least stop pretending you ever intended to give it a shot on its merits.

The only reason I ever give anything a shot is to find the merits in watching it. In Firefly it was actors being better than the material presented to them, specifically Adam Baldwin, but even the rest of the crew did a better job than I expected. Now, I'll be reasonable and say I *knew* Eliza Dushku was not going to be able to help this one at all, but that's not exactly my fault is it?

[stray]

Hey, I don't blame you. The show's premise isn't appealing to me. I haven't caught the second episode yet. I might watch episodes if I've got nothing to do though.