Dollhouse

[stray]

…and while it really doesn't appeal to me, you can't say this one has been done on TV before ;)

I guess if you combined Alias and Quantum Leap, it might be similar territory.

[edit] Or was that sarcasm? Is there another show like this?

[UnSub]

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

[Samwise]

I think it's pretty awesome how if  your story's main characters are all male, you're a misogynist because you don't portray any strong female characters, and if you do have any female main characters, you're a misogynist whenever something bad happens to them.

I would dearly love to see someone tell a non-misogynistic story.  I think it'd be a hoot.

[Velorath]

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

You're familiar with the term "drama" and it's importance in regards to storytelling I hope.

[UnSub]

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

You're familiar with the term "drama" and it's importance in regards to storytelling I hope.

I apologise for insulting your geek crush. But there's drama, then there's having Buffy sexually assaulted by Spike who had pretty much grown into a pathetic joke by that point. And there are other examples.

Conflict is obviously the basis for drama, but there is also torturing your character. And accepting equality awards for it.

[Nevermore]

He puts most, if not all his characters through hell, not just the women.

[Tebonas]

The basic premise of Buffy was just a play with expectations, whatever bullshit feminist reasoning was tacked on as an afterthought.

I love Firefly and Dr Horrible, and I liked some seasons of both Buffy and Angel. Whedon is a master of making you care for characters and then torturing them. He is an equal opportunity offender in that. He neither has it out for women nor is he a feminist icon.

Dollhouse sounds meh to me. But I give it the same few episodes I give every other SG/Fantasy/Mystery series until I decide to give it a pass.

[Riggswolfe]

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

You're familiar with the term "drama" and it's importance in regards to storytelling I hope.

I apologise for insulting your geek crush. But there's drama, then there's having Buffy sexually assaulted by Spike who had pretty much grown into a pathetic joke by that point. And there are other examples.

Conflict is obviously the basis for drama, but there is also torturing your character. And accepting equality awards for it.

You are so full of bullshit. Name one character on Buffy who didn't have bad shit happen to them? Sometimes done by others, sometimes brought on by their own failures and character flaws. Same thing with Angel. Hell, if there was ever an argument against him being a misogynist, it's the hell he puts Angel through on both series. (Literally in a couple of episodes and a stretch between episodes.)

[Samwise]

No no no... it's part of the natural order of things for bad things to happen to MEN.  Men are yucky.

[Signe]

Now that I realise who Eliza Dushku is and how horribly horrible she is at acting, I'm not sure I'll bother.  God.  I can't even think of the right words to describe how terrible she is!  Really really very terrible.  Even worse than that.  In that film I rented, she did one scene where she had to kind of have a nervous breakdown moment.  Oh dear.  I might prefer her bland acting to that crazy animated jitter-fest.

[Reg]

I'd take your opinion of her more seriously if I didn't know what a huge fan you are of that horrible woman from Torchwood.

[Nevermore]

Oh come on.  I'm sure she'll excel in playing a character with constantly changing personalities.  I'm sure she'll bring a nuanced, subtle interpretation to the portrayal a woman who's always being redefined.

[Signe]

I don't remember being a huge fan of anyone from Torchwood.  I didn't even like that show.  It's awful.  I vaguely remember thinking that the woman with the gap between her teeth wasn't ugly because of it. 

Or did you just call me fat? 

[Velorath]

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

You're familiar with the term "drama" and it's importance in regards to storytelling I hope.

I apologise for insulting your geek crush. But there's drama, then there's having Buffy sexually assaulted by Spike who had pretty much grown into a pathetic joke by that point. And there are other examples.

You mean the sexual assault that the strong female character fights off?

[Reg]

I don't remember being a huge fan of anyone from Torchwood.  I didn't even like that show.  It's awful.  I vaguely remember thinking that the woman with the gap between her teeth wasn't ugly because of it. 

That's it! The horrible gap toothed woman is the one you're the big fan of! I know because you accused me of anti-welsh racism over her!

And anti-welsh racism is a very serious charge. Careers have been destroyed over it. Consonants and vowels have been placed in inappropriate spots. It has sometimes caused people to slip "ap" into regular conversation like it's an actual word.

[Johny Cee]

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

Umm.

The major set-piece in Buffy is "bunch of male vampires attack a pretty, overdressed woman in a dark alley", at which point Buffy shows up and kills them.  Vampires in general in that show are thinly veiled allegory for sexual predators, where the wispy, tiny blonde hero gets to act out a revenge wish-fulfillment by taking violent and final retribution.

Explicitly, vampires have no souls so you don't even have to feel sorry for them.

Occassionally,  you have to put Buffy through the ringer to maintain her victim cred.  Otherwise, she's a supernatural vigilante relentlessly hunting down victims of a sexual mental disorder/imbalance that would be better served by professional psychiatric help and regimen of meds.

The male equivalent is having the action movie bad guy ruthlessly kill the main character's best friend/retiring partner/love interest/parents so that the eventual murder in cold blood feels morally justified.

I don't think you can attack Whedon for misogny.  You CAN attack him for ruthlessly exploiting womens (quite justified) fears of sexual assault in order to make a buck.

[stray]

Wow, I never gave a thought to any of this. The premise is just supposed to be silly, I thought: Cheerleader turned vampire slayer. Not girl. Cheerleader.

[Johny Cee]

Wow, I never gave a thought to any of this. The premise is just supposed to be silly, I thought: Cheerleader turned vampire slayer. Not girl. Cheerleader.

Everything Whedon's done has two major parts:

1.  Cool and quirky,  pop culture conscious, combining different genres (action and comedy, horror and comedy)
2.  Ham-handed allegory.


The worst example was the "Heart of Gold" episode of Firefly:  the supposed plot had something to do with a farmer/prostitute land dispute or love match on the wrong side of the tracks or something. 

It devolved into the mustache twirling misogynist villain forcing the prostitute-traitor to give him a blow job in front of his followers, to show his beliefs on sexual dominance and female empowerment, before he's killed by the plucky heroes.

[stray]

Interesting.. Most of that just slips right past me, I guess.

That said, Faith talked more about all of this misogyny stuff than Buffy ever did. The only real issues it seemed like Buffy had was to maintain a stiff upper lip, and not think too much that she couldn't a dumb Cheerleader anymore. Or in other words, she fought against the idea of responsibility more than anything.

[stray]

Ummm... Just watched Dollhouse. It was interesting enough. Doesn't seem like a "Whedon show" though, since it's not really an ensemble series, the main character is isolated, and as far as I see, doesn't have many options to make longterm connections with the rest of the cast in the future.. Who knows though.

She's still hot. And not all that bad of an actress.

[Trippy]

This is a horrible horrible show

[schild]

Obvious lack of quality of obvious. Stray is just blinded by his love for Dushku. It's a shame really. And totally transparent.

[Abagadro]

The librarian look was hot.  Needs Nathan Fillion though. Everything needs Nathan Fillion.

[stray]

Obvious lack of quality of obvious. Stray is just blinded by his love for Dushku. It's a shame really. And totally transparent.

Uhh, you're making it sound like I care that much about it. Not sure where in my post I indicated that. Hell yeah, she's hot. Doesn't mean I'm sold on the show. I'm afraid the plot lends itself to too much serializing, and being too focused on a single character, if you must know.

That said, must you guys always be extreme around here? It's like a Mountain Dew commercial. Except with opinions. "AWEESSOMEE!!" "Horrible, horrible". It is neither. It rarely ever is.

[Velorath]

Obvious lack of quality of obvious. Stray is just blinded by his love for Dushku. It's a shame really. And totally transparent.

Uhh, you're making it sound like I care that much about it. Not sure where in my post I indicated that. Hell yeah, she's hot. Doesn't mean I'm sold on the show. I'm afraid the plot lends itself to too much serializing, and being too focused on a single character, if you must know.

I think Whedon said something along the lines that part of the retooling of the series they did was to throw in some more "mission of the week" episodes in before they start getting into the bigger arcs.

[stray]

I wonder what the storyarc is then.. there was that dude at the end, searching for her, I guess?

Perhaps the show needs a stream of "instant missions" to boost interest though. The other thing I think will be hard to get into is... well.. basically the whole premise. I mean, he's going to attract Whedon fans, and a few stragglers like myself, but the premise of the show doesn't really have an understandable hook for newcomers. Vampires are one thing. "Actives" are another.

[Trippy]

I wonder what the storyarc is then.. there was that dude at the end, searching for her, I guess?

And the FBI agent searching for them.

[palmer_eldritch]

I've never really bought Whedon's "I'm not a misogynist, but my shows have strong female leads who constantly have the physical and emotional crap kicked out of them" line. He would appear to enjoy putting female characters through the wringer given how often he does it.

You're familiar with the term "drama" and it's importance in regards to storytelling I hope.

I apologise for insulting your geek crush. But there's drama, then there's having Buffy sexually assaulted by Spike who had pretty much grown into a pathetic joke by that point. And there are other examples.

Conflict is obviously the basis for drama, but there is also torturing your character. And accepting equality awards for it.

He does do that to his characters, but James Bond (recent movies) and Jack Bauer get the same treatment.

Admittedly, there's no defending Buffy Season Six.

[Righ]

That said, must you guys always be extreme around here?

Not always, but in this case it is a truism that Dushku is an extremely bad actress.

[stray]

Well, I honestly don't see it. She isn't a great actress, but I didn't see anything unusual here.

I've never seen the movie you and Signe mentioned, but y'know, sometimes shit happens to even good actors (watch Marlon Brando in Candy), or actors who've been known to be fairly entertaining can be made to look worse than they are (Cary Elwes in Saw). It's especially the case with horror type of movies. Not everyone can either do them or they're just directed very badly.

[Tannhauser]

It was OK.  I give it a B-.  E.D. is hot, but yeah not so much with the acting.  The premise is intriguing and we have good old stoic Helo running around.  A bit surprised at the last of classic Whedon riffs.  It's really little  more than Alias isn't it though?  I mean she does change personalities but still.

[DraconianOne]

…and while it really doesn't appeal to me, you can't say this one has been done on TV before ;)

Sounds like it has more than a passing resemblance to Dark Angel

[stray]

On a sidenote, it's kind of interesting what a built-in "fanbase" does. Sarah Conner had 3.7 million viewers, but this show went to 4.7 (neither of which are great though).

[schild]

On a sidenote, it's kind of interesting what a built-in "fanbase" does. Sarah Conner had 3.7 million viewers, but this show went to 4.7 (neither of which are great though).

The Whedon fanbase isn't just a fanbase. It's a collective of nerds living in a world where "good taste" doesn't even exist. Dollhouse really does look like pure shit and Whedon, I hope, is just using it to test said nerds.

[stray]

Either way, Friday really is a place to kill shows. They'll both probably be gone soon enough.