Mythic Employees Forced onto Waaaaaaaghbulance

[raydeen]

Elite management team still in place.

Dear god what the hell is that, and why is it not being burned with fire.

I think these were the programmers who worked on the contribution code:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_8yPap-k_s

[Merusk]

You could blame EA, but I recall Mark saying that Mythic was still his to run. Sometimes it hurts to open your mouth and say too much.

He did, we laughed.  This is what I was referring to, earlier.  Everyone under the sun here and on blogs was like "WTF, Mark?" IIRC.  He proceeded to say lots of things disconnected from the reality of selling your company to another one.  Things along the lines of "We're still in control" and "We get to decide when things are go, not some corporate bean counter."

I laughed then. I figured everyone else was, too.

[Signe]

This thread seems to be full of suck!   

[NiX]

This thread seems to be full of suck!   

The ego of Paul Barnett extends across the vastness that is the internet.

[DLRiley]

TheyThe industry still hasn't made it out of the 90's era 'Make Game, Get Paid, Go Home' mentality.

I hope you mean the mmo industry.

[UnSub]

TheyThe industry still hasn't made it out of the 90's era 'Make Game, Get Paid, Go Home' mentality.

I hope you mean the mmo industry.

Mainly because a lot of MMO development spend all their money just getting to the point of launch and hope for millions of dollars to keep rolling in so they can keep the server lights on.

Unfortunately it seems the amount of money rolling in don't meet with business plan expectations (assuming there are real business plans - I'm looking at you, HGL) so MMOs just after launch can go straight into purgatory mode - enough money to keep going, not enough money to improve.

[UnSub]

It doesn't matter. We should be able to just read and figure out when something is sarcasm.

My opinion, if sarcasm isn't immediately recognizable, the writer sucks.

Yes. I totally agree.

 

[Venkman]

What a sad turn of events. Small fish gets eaten by big fish. I wonder if they would have been better off just doing their own thing like they were.

What about WAR is EA's fault? They could have launched THIS Fall and the result would be the same. It was Mythic ignoring feedback from testers from back when something could have been done about it. If this was Mythic self-publishing, the only difference I could see is they probably would have started with fewer subs. Everything else about the actual state of this game lays entirely at their feet.

[Modern Angel]

Seriously. For once it's not EA's bastard bourgeois stranglehold over the poor proletariat studios fucking things up. EA didn't hire Barnett, EA didn't have a sham of a beta, EA didn't increase XP needed to level with no testing, EA didn't force Mark Jacobs to act like a retard on every board imaginable, EA didn't spin things that the poor guys laid off somehow fucking deserved it because of some master plan whereby your company contracting is a sign of success.

As a general rule, I don't get MMO nerdrage. They're games, not lifestyles, and I treat them as such. But I've never wanted a group of idiots to get their comeuppance like Jacobs and Barnett. That spin on the layoffs tore it from me. Crash and burn, Mythic.

[Delmania]

Seriously. For once it's not EA's bastard bourgeois stranglehold over the poor proletariat studios fucking things up. EA didn't hire Barnett, EA didn't have a sham of a beta, EA didn't increase XP needed to level with no testing, EA didn't force Mark Jacobs to act like a retard on every board imaginable, EA didn't spin things that the poor guys laid off somehow fucking deserved it because of some master plan whereby your company contracting is a sign of success.

As a general rule, I don't get MMO nerdrage. They're games, not lifestyles, and I treat them as such. But I've never wanted a group of idiots to get their comeuppance like Jacobs and Barnett. That spin on the layoffs tore it from me. Crash and burn, Mythic.

For the most part, Mythic itself doesn't deserve the ire.  It's mostly Jacobs, and to a lesser extent, Paul that are responsible for driving the game and the company into the ground.  If EA got rid of Jacobs and those in management who were his yes-men and put in someone who actually had a clue, the game could be much better off.

[Margalis]

What a shocking turn of events.

Edit: The people running MMO numbers are like the people in 1999 who convinced everyone that if only 1% of pet owners bought dog food online then buydogfoodhere.com would rake in billions.

Instead of thinking "We need 5% of the subs of WOW to break even" they need to think "we need twice the subs of EQ2 and more subs than any game we've produced has come close to putting up even when there was no real competition."

[Azazel]

For the most part, Mythic itself doesn't deserve the ire.  It's mostly Jacobs, and to a lesser extent, Paul that are responsible for driving the game and the company into the ground.  If EA got rid of Jacobs and those in management who were his yes-men and put in someone who actually had a clue, the game could be much better off.

That's essentially it for me as well. WAR is crashing and burning not because of the poor bastards who are getting laid off. WAR is crashing because of the fucktards steering the ship into a series of icebergs. EA should cut off the head and let, I dunno. Teletubbies or something run the company instead. Fewer people would lose their jobs and the game would suck less with someone else in management.

I don't care if Mythic is the House That Mark Built, he needs to go.

[damijin]

Mythic should have kept making smaller, more versatile online games.

The stuff they did in the 90s was revolutionary, and they could be making a killing on small mmo-like games with microtransactions. Aliens Online, Magestorm, Silent Death. These games fucking rocked. Warhammer sucks nuts.

[waffel]

Mythic should have kept making smaller, more versatile online games.

The stuff they did in the 90s was revolutionary, and they could be making a killing on small mmo-like games with microtransactions. Aliens Online, Magestorm, Silent Death. These games fucking rocked. Warhammer sucks nuts.

I agree. Silent Death Online was fucking awesome. I remember playing that a long time ago.

Sanya's take on this is telling. Basically, it was more than just some random QA guy hired on for the 'push' of release, it was some pretty high up senior people that were axed. And it wasn't EAs doing.

[Arthur_Parker]

Been a bit of a (heh) trying day.  Paul Barnett 4th Feb 2009

[Margalis]

Please tell me that isn't real.

[Triforcer]

Magnetic north of wrong, remember?  Of course its real.  How could it not be?

[apocrypha]

Look, when bank bosses fuck up and lose billions we heap money on them and give them another go. Why should it be different with MMORPGs?

[Velorath]

Sanya's take on this is telling. Basically, it was more than just some random QA guy hired on for the 'push' of release, it was some pretty high up senior people that were axed. And it wasn't EAs doing.

Yeah, I was just reading that ealier.  Worth quoting for the lazy or those who might have overlooked the link:

There’s a lot I can’t say about Mythic right now. But there are three points I can make, in direct defiance of silly children on message boards:

One, the people who lost their jobs today were not just a few extra QA folks, or a couple world devs hired on for the big push to completion. The pile included some very senior people, people who expected to stay at Mythic until they retired.

Two, many of them were good people who deserved the loyalty they’d been told so much about. If anyone reading this happens to be hiring (people still do that, right?), please give me a buzz.

Three, um, and I say this with love, but the mouth breathing troglodytes who post on boards in between bouts of masturbation and nosepicking should probably shut the hell up about how this was EA’s evildoing at work. I don’t know firsthand what EA was like before they bought out Mythic, but if “acting like adults” and “allowing the studio to set their own expectations” and “paying a decent wage by the standards of the game industry” are bad things, I don’t want to work for a good company again.

[AngryGumball]

I don't get the hate for Paul B. I understand you may not like his style. I like his enthusiasm. While I may not have the skill to determine whether he is good or bad in his career, I enjoy his excitement for the topic. I liked the tag teaming Paul and that other guy did.


Wasn't Sanya's Husband still employed by Mythic  thought I remember reading at the time she left Mythic, in a artist or designer role?

[schild]

Three, um, and I say this with love, but the mouth breathing troglodytes who post on boards in between bouts of masturbation and nosepicking should probably shut the hell up about how this was EA’s evildoing at work. I don’t know firsthand what EA was like before they bought out Mythic, but if “acting like adults” and “allowing the studio to set their own expectations” and “paying a decent wage by the standards of the game industry” are bad things, I don’t want to work for a good company again.

I think she's assuming the wrong thing about EA. I, personally at least, aim not to say that EA is evil. That's too easy. But they are terribly predictable. Obviously, even if Mythic was independent, these firings still would've occurred. They were staffed for easily double the number of subs WAR ended up with. Other companies however at least make some aim to restructure and reallocate where possible. I'm sure a number of people from Mythic could've gone over to Bioware Austin or Maxis or any of the other divisions that seem to be staffing up nonstop until the end of time. EA is content with completely cutting strings though.

If EA weren't involved it would've been a case of "lol, results of failed expectations are obvious results." I'm just cynical enough to side with corporations sometimes and say "if they were let go, there's probably a good reason beyond failing to meet expectations." I've seen lots of good people let go from companies, but I've seen many, many more bad ones who were just dead weight.

Also, I don't see the difference between posting on forum between bouts of masturbation and nosepicking and posting on a blog between bouts of masturbation and nosepicking. Though, if it's on a blog, you can feign superiority.

Edit: Clarity.

[Merusk]

Three, um, and I say this with love, but the mouth breathing troglodytes who post on boards in between bouts of masturbation and nosepicking should probably shut the hell up about how this was EA’s evildoing at work. I don’t know firsthand what EA was like before they bought out Mythic, but if “acting like adults” and “allowing the studio to set their own expectations” and “paying a decent wage by the standards of the game industry” are bad things, I don’t want to work for a good company again.

[/quote]

You mean standard corporate culture?  That these are seen as anything other than normal parts of having a job tells me the games industry is worse off than I ever suspected.

I see lots of talk of "loyalty" not being rewarded. Loyalty is for private firms, not publicly traded companies trying to stem the tide of red receipts.  Those axe jobs and whole divisions while the core executive ladder is reshuffled.  Perhaps all the Mythic alums shouting about how unfair this is are just too emotionally invested because these are their friends.  This is business as usual for EA or any corporation. This is why it was a 'bad idea' to be absorbed by the beast, because you lose options like they're saying "why didn't you cut pay, reduce executive salaries, etc." 

Then again, this could be a purely Mark fuck-up. As the division pres he could have seen if other divisions would hire, or offered some referrals.  However, we don't know if he looked into that and was denied. 

[Arthur_Parker]

I never took part in any comments made about EA, now or back when they bought Mythic, I had no strong feelings either way. 

It strikes me as odd for Sanya to be defending EA now, when I remember lots of people predicting downsizing at Mythic when EA was first mentioned, kinda like "you might have been right but, it was for the wrong reasons".  If defending EA is meant to shift our nosepicking focus back onto Mythic management, A. it's not very subtle and B. If there are issues there (apart from the obvious game design/senior personalities), then someone needs to dish the dirt, just so we can have some real masturbation material.

[UnSub]

Also, I don't see the difference between posting on forum between bouts of masturbation and nosepicking and posting on a blog between bouts of masturbation and nosepicking. Though, if it's on a blog, you can feign superiority.

The difference is blogging works best with two hands. The others work fine with one.

As for that video: amateur hour. Don't vidblog after a few drinks.

I read Sanya's post as placing the blame firmly on Mythic management. She's saying, "Don't blame EA for this - they weren't the douchebags here". Now, if Mythic wasn't part of EA they may have let fewer people go, but WAR was a flop. If 500k was break even, and they had visions of 1m subs, they are in a big hole.

Mythic is a independent studio made big. They released a big investment, it flopped, people have to go or the whole company closes. EA's probably a little busy elsewhere right now, but at some point Jacobs, Barnett et al will have to explain how things went so horribly wrong. After that point, they might not have a job anymore.

So yeah, it hurts at Mythic (apart from Party Time with Barnett) but that's business on a product with south of $100m invested in it.

[schild]

I would be very depressed if WAR cost $100M to make.

It's still astounding how they managed to fuck it up. It's just, argh, it's just some of the worst design decisions shortly prior to launch and post launch I've ever, ever seen.

[Numtini]

Been a bit of a (heh) trying day.  Paul Barnett 4th Feb 2009

Hey we just laid off people! They're out of jobs in a depression and probably won't have one for four or five years! They'll lose their houses, cars, families! Probably end up on the street! But the game goes on! Let's party!

If one of the laid off devs shoots up Mythics HQ, all he needs to do is show that video to the jury.

[Bismallah]

I would be very depressed if WAR cost $100M to make.

It's still astounding how they managed to fuck it up. It's just, argh, it's just some of the worst design decisions shortly prior to launch and post launch I've ever, ever seen.

Schild, just south of 100m I put the rest of the quote in here for... well just for laughs; "I asked if Mythic’s parent company EA spent $100 million on “Warhammer Online.” “No, but you look at what we did spend, it was lot of money,” he said. Jacobs would only tell me that they’ve spent south of $100 million on “Warhammer Online,” and that’s because he and his team have the experience and the technology behind the game. “We are one of the most experienced MMO teams in the industry, and we had to delay the game obviously more than once,” he said. “And if we had that happen, when you have an experienced team with great tech who’s done this before, how much harder is that for somebody who’s never done it? No matter how talented the team is, they’re going to make mistakes."

Linky: http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/ea-mythic-activision-world-of-warcraft-estimate-is-overblown/

[Megrim]

Did anyone point out to him that Blizzard had never made an mmo before?

[Delmania]

What a shocking turn of events.

Edit: The people running MMO numbers are like the people in 1999 who convinced everyone that if only 1% of pet owners bought dog food online then buydogfoodhere.com would rake in billions.

Instead of thinking "We need 5% of the subs of WOW to break even" they need to think "we need twice the subs of EQ2 and more subs than any game we've produced has come close to putting up even when there was no real competition."

That's the core problem with WAR: greed.  MJ wants a WoW sized playber, but he's not willing to put the effort into getting it. This occurred in DAoC with the ToA expansion.   I think he admitted that he did the expansion in an effort to steal subscribers away from Everquest.  Rather than improve on DAoC's RvR-based endgame, he created a cheap, buggy clone of Everquest that drove people awy from the game.  They can spin the numbers all they want, but when you create a "classic" server set that has the expansion's content turned off, and it become more popular than your regular ruleset, something is wrong.

Now, we turn to WAR.  MJ claims to have "learned his lesson", and that he would be satisfied with a niche playerbase.  300,000 is definitely a niche playerbase, and it is respectable number, but considering the drop in number from the game's release, it's nothing more than staggering.  Had MJ really learned, take the concepts of RvR that were good in DAoC, improved them, and then incorporated some of the ideas from WoW that are successful, and utilize more moden technology, the game could have had a much better start.  There would have been a drop in subscribers, but nowhere near as bad.   

I find it funny that for all the company's claims of "we're not competing with WoW", it tried to do exactly that - create a game that appealed to both WoW and DAoC players, with the emphasis on WoW's players. 

I also find it humorous that all of WAR's supporters are emphasizing that the playerbase size is respectable - which it is - but also ignoring the staggering drop that represents as well as the fact that the game was built to compete with WoW.

[Arthur_Parker]

My pet theory is Tolkien Enterprises have been pulling the strings all along, they killed off Iron Crown Enterprises, which halted the Rolemaster/Mythic DAoC deal, which forced Mythic to go with a bad copy of EQ combat for DAoC.  Which ultimately leads to Mythic settling for a sub par engine for WAR as they think doing a similar poor imitation of WoW combat for WAR will be good enough.  All leading back to Turbine picking up a couple of dozen extra LOTRO subs, making more profit for Tolkien Enterprises.

[Big Gulp]

Remember back when Mythic was bought-out and we said, "You're doomed" only to have Mark come out and say "No, no, they're different now.  It won't go down like that. EA's changed!  They won't force us to release the game early and then slash jobs when things go south.  They're totally different now! They mean it this time!"

Yeah. 

So you say you ran into a wall, Sally? Pity.

Can you blame EA?  They forked over a lot of money and granted them a couple of delays only to receive an unpolished, Warhammer skinned DAOC.  EA isn't a charity, and when your project shits the bed your employees pay the price.

I can guarantee that were I EA overlord I'd be sending the hatchet man over to Mythic as well.

ETA:  I see others have already responded in a like vein.  Sorry for the redundancy.   

[Modern Angel]

Look, that doesn't make Mythic unique. Everyone's doing a WoW knockoff, either in the combat mechanics or the quest based gameplay. Everyone.

What makes Mythic so monolithically unique is how absolutely amateur they are. Each and every decision they've made since release has been the wrong one. Without fail. And this layoff stuff is the icing on the cake: a cold as fuck press release and then a youtube video of Barnett partying in the office. This is Flagship stuff. Fuck, this is the kind of shit you expect from a shoestring Java company staffed by three neckbeards without a single bar of soap between them. But not a AAA super studio. Not from a group of guys who've been around for this long.

This was a slam dunk. An absolute slam dunk with the IP and WoW burnout creeping in for so many players.

As a denouement, I may be overly sensitive because I just got lain off from a game studio but that press release and video have me riled the fuck up. I always come back to MMOs. Always. I get a little bored with WoW or whatever and check in for a month to see how things have shaped up, sometimes two or three. I was considering checking Warhammer after this free expansion, maybe after Slayers, but not now. Not a dime of my money will go to them. Like I stated, I don't understand MMO nerdrage over companies and games like you're some sort of jilted lover if your class gets nerfed but this? Man, fuck these guys.

[kildorn]

I would be very depressed if WAR cost $100M to make.

It's still astounding how they managed to fuck it up. It's just, argh, it's just some of the worst design decisions shortly prior to launch and post launch I've ever, ever seen.

This is what annoyed me so much. Most of beta? Fun! It was DAOC again, with updates and all our old enjoyment and some battlegrounds that weren't Thid, wheee!

And then, randomly, they scrapped the whole system, threw some other shit in, cranked up the pve grind, and called it gold. What the shit.

[Fordel]

Can you blame EA?  They forked over a lot of money and granted them a couple of delays only to receive an unpolished, Warhammer skinned DAOC.  EA isn't a charity, and when your project shits the bed your employees pay the price.

The sad irony in that, is it failed to pull off a DaoC remake as well.

[Delmania]

Remember back when Mythic was bought-out and we said, "You're doomed" only to have Mark come out and say "No, no, they're different now.  It won't go down like that. EA's changed!  They won't force us to release the game early and then slash jobs when things go south.  They're totally different now! They mean it this time!"

Yeah. 

So you say you ran into a wall, Sally? Pity.

Can you blame EA?  They forked over a lot of money and granted them a couple of delays only to receive an unpolished, Warhammer skinned DAOC.  EA isn't a charity, and when your project shits the bed your employees pay the price.

I can guarantee that were I EA overlord I'd be sending the hatchet man over to Mythic as well.

ETA:  I see others have already responded in a like vein.  Sorry for the redundancy.   

The problem is that the wrong people got the axe.