Mythic Employees Forced onto Waaaaaaaghbulance

[ashrik]

Everyone's doing a WoW knockoff

hehe well... not everyone 

[Trippy]

What makes Mythic so monolithically unique is how absolutely amateur they are.

Mythic is not alone in this.

[Modern Angel]

No, for a supposed big boy, top notch studio they're pretty unique in how stupid they've been.

[Trippy]

Destination Games/NCsoft and TR was an even more epic fail. So was Sigil and Vanguard.

[Modern Angel]

I'll give you TR but Vanguard was strictly second tier material even at the height of its hype.

The thing about TR is that even with a shitty game at launch they at least made some feeble attempt to move the right direction. I would read press releases and patch notes and think, "Okay, not for me but that sounds like the right general direction to go in." I never read a single sentence by Mythic regarding WAR that made me think that.

[Mrbloodworth]

What a sad turn of events. Small fish gets eaten by big fish. I wonder if they would have been better off just doing their own thing like they were.

What about WAR is EA's fault? They could have launched THIS Fall and the result would be the same. It was Mythic ignoring feedback from testers from back when something could have been done about it. If this was Mythic self-publishing, the only difference I could see is they probably would have started with fewer subs. Everything else about the actual state of this game lays entirely at their feet.

It wasn't trying to imply that anything was EA's fault, just that i wonder how things would have shaken down if EA had not bought mythic. I would imagine that anytime a merge like that happens, the office flow that once was, will be gone due to the new overlords. I have seen it happen, and have been in it, its not really fun and a lot of things get shaken up. Not to mention that all of EAs' problems, are now Mythics too.

[Delmania]

What makes Mythic so monolithically unique is how absolutely amateur they are.

Yes, it's amazing how many of the issues that creeped up in DAoC are creeping up in WAR.  For me, what baffles me is how you can use the same graphics engine in one game and be successful with it, and the fuck it up with another game.  If you're making such drastic changes to your characters that you need to redo how you use the engine and the process spawn tons of glitches and are unable utilize things like SLI and Crossfire, maybe it's time to rethink things.

[Lum]

Perhaps all the Mythic alums shouting about how unfair this is are just too emotionally invested because these are their friends.

Wow, what a perfectly obvious statement. How could I have not seen this?

Addendum A: It is fairly standard with most companies these days, when leaving their employ, to sign basic agreements such as "I will not poach employees from you for X years" or, "I will not disparage you publically for Y years (or ever)". You might want to think of this before demanding, as you put it, masturbation material.

Addendum B: Since I did not actually sign any of these, I can safely say that Paul's video last night was ... well, I didn't sign anything, but I also generally don't slag ex-coworkers into nuclear glass, either. Generally. Yeah. You go, you rebel alliance leader, you.

[Arthur_Parker]

Posting about how games suck is all fine until people start losing their jobs, then we are meant to feel guilty about it?  I don't really disagree with that, because yeah, it really does suck, but consider while looking around for someone to blame, hint, it's not the players, not even the vocal ones.  If the comment on the demand for masturbation material was aimed at me, it wasn't a demand, Sanya clearly wanted to make the point that EA wasn't at fault, fine, but finish that thought if you can.

[SnakeCharmer]

While I agree that loyalty to your friends is a good thing, so is maintaining a bit of professionalism.  Barnett's actions/video are inexcusable, no doubt, but that doesn't make it right to turn it into a free-for-all against <whomever>.  

After all, I'm not quite sure that dousing bridges with napalm and tossing a match is the right way to go.

[Lum]

It's safe to say that in this case the bridges are charred, burning, smoking ruins and still have bombers running missions every half hour just to make absolutely sure.

But yes, your point is taken. Yesterday was fairly emotional for a lot of people involved.

[Modern Angel]

While I agree that loyalty to your friends is a good thing, so is maintaining a bit of professionalism.  Barnett's actions/video are inexcusable, no doubt, but that doesn't make it right to turn it into a free-for-all against <whomever>. 

After all, I'm not quite sure that dousing bridges with napalm and tossing a match is the right way to go.

Way to do it: We had to lay off some very good folks yesterday. Pretty cold, we know, but our hearts go out to them. We obviously didn't pull down what we wanted, that's on us but the future's bright and it's time to move forward.

Way to not do it: Press release devaluing those who left and trying desperately to have people not look at the numbers behind the curtain. Release a video of a fat sack of English shit yukking it up in the office the day a hefty portion of your co-workers got sent home to tell their spouses they can't make mortgage this month.



This is PR 101. The entire underpinning of the MMO is that there is a consistent community, in game and out, of players and company folks. If we take that as a starting point, if that's the entire reason MMO companies have to churn out daily press releases and forum posts, then you're automatically different than a single player games studio. Act accordingly.

Besides any of that, my pinko heart doesn't like seeing workers get shit on publicly. I can't countenance it in other industries, this is no different. That video was a big shit on the folks who lost their jobs.

[Delmania]

Seriously, all of this is just further proof the wrong people got cut.     Rather than being open and honest about the state of the game and the contributions of those who were cut, MJ hid behind a claim these were planned cuts in line with some initiative, and then tried to claim that Mythic is "customer focused".  Seriously, no one but the fanbois is going to buy that.   If there is going to be any real change in WAR or Mythic, the person most responsible needs to go.

[Ghambit]

Personally I could care less and am not surprised at any of this from Mythic.
The plain, simple fact underlying ALL of this is:

We Nerds dont make good salesmen, and we definitely dont make good PR men.  You're asking momma's-basement coders to be in touch with reality... get real, aint gonna happen.  And if you wanted a real "philosophical" reason why MMOs traditionally fail, you could use the same logic.

 

[schild]

We Nerds dont make good salesmen, and we definitely dont make good PR men.

Horrible generalization. There are a number of nerds that can sell and pitch just about anything. It's just a skillset. Mark and Paul have had a string of luck, their luck simply ran out. They don't possess that skillset. But nerds? Yea, that's a bit too broad.

[SnakeCharmer]

We Nerds dont make good salesmen

Depends on your audience.

   Sort of.

[Delmania]

We Nerds dont make good salesmen, and we definitely dont make good PR men.

Horrible generalization. There are a number of nerds that can sell and pitch just about anything. It's just a skillset. Mark and Paul have had a string of luck, their luck simply ran out. They don't possess that skillset. But nerds? Yea, that's a bit too broad.

Many of the nerds on these forums have expressed how Mythic should have handled these layoffs.

[Merusk]

Perhaps all the Mythic alums shouting about how unfair this is are just too emotionally invested because these are their friends.

Wow, what a perfectly obvious statement. How could I have not seen this?

 

I keep forgetting that's what the internet is for.  Making statements at the height of emotion that are likely come back to bite you in the ass one day.  You go, bloggers union 504. Keep burning those bridges!

That said, Paul's vid was way out of line.  Not that anything is likely to happen to him about it as it's good to be one of the royalty executives.  Then again, being drunk on company property probably carries a termination penalty. Hope on that one.

[Threash]

Personally I could care less and am not surprised at any of this from Mythic.
The plain, simple fact underlying ALL of this is:

We Nerds dont make good salesmen, and we definitely dont make good PR men.  You're asking momma's-basement coders to be in touch with reality... get real, aint gonna happen.  And if you wanted a real "philosophical" reason why MMOs traditionally fail, you could use the same logic.

 

We are actually asking them to shut the fuck up.

[Venkman]

It strikes me as odd for Sanya to be defending EA now, when I remember lots of people predicting downsizing at Mythic when EA was first mentioned, kinda like "you might have been right but, it was for the wrong reasons".  If defending EA is meant to shift our nosepicking focus back onto Mythic management, A. it's not very subtle and B. If there are issues there (apart from the obvious game design/senior personalities), then someone needs to dish the dirt, just so we can have some real masturbation material.

This is a great occasion to see the difference between how the game development community works and how players think.

Defending or vilifying EA is not a black and white thing. I know it's still fun to be all emo on big corporate America, but these days I find it little more than quaint. Every relationship is much more complex than the usual perception that some management team sits on a Mountain and gets their rings kissed by developers at whim. It's rarely that way, and it really isn't in this case.

Everything that is wrong with WAR is based on decisions before they were acquired. EA is no more responsible for pushing out a bad game early than Mythic is capable of having made a good one, in this case. They came to this game without the right insights and were incapable of adapting to the truth on the ground.

Everyone's doing a WoW knockoff

hehe well... not everyone 

That's actually not as important. What is I think is these two truths:

• So many of the big launches were also based on decisions made before those developers got into WoW beta. Totally understandable of course. There are some things you simply can't change without a TR-style reboot.
  
• Just how many people learn the wrong things from WoW.
  
  

The first is a skill thing with talent. The second is purely a talent thing. You're either capable fo learning the right lessons as a team or you are not. Generally that means a lot of people DO know the right thing to do but are overriden by the cults of personality.

[Delmania]

We are actually asking them to shut the fuck up.

I think we're asking them to drop the smoke screen and be more honest with the state of the game and the importance of the work of those who left.

[Ard]

Like I stated, I don't understand MMO nerdrage over companies and games like you're some sort of jilted lover if your class gets nerfed but this? Man, fuck these guys.

Total agreement on this one.  I don't generally get mad at anyone, and willing to give everyone a second chance further down the road, even if the market doesn't.  This is the first time I've quit a game angry at the developer, and I'm still confused over it.  The game is just one big muddled mess with no direction. 
Even Age of Conan had direction.  I quit that game happy, and with the understanding that it wasn't done, but with a pretty clear vision of what they were trying to do.  I quit WoW because the direction of that game was not for me.  WAR though... I don't even know what they were trying to do, and the fact that it launched in that state, and that people are now losing jobs, and that the crater from this will affect every mmo currently in development makes my head hurt.

[Numtini]

Maybe they can get the guy in the video a big bonus and a junket to Vegas on a private jet. Seriously, this mirrored the greater economic world so vividly. A lot of people really hurting and some top level (but bottom feeders) who just plain don't get it. We all know how bad the economic climate is. All I could think of when I saw that was my friends who are out of work and unlikely to be back in work for quite a while. One's almost suicidally depressed and I can't even imagine what would happen if they saw the equivilent from one of their managers. That video really is one of the few times when I've looked at something and thought I'd prefer not to do business with a gaming company for moral reasons. It's unforgiveable and unacceptable.

Back to the actual game and trying to do WoW business without WoW level investment (time, resources, money etc.). Wasn't Mark babbling before release that the game was going to show you could have WoW polish without a WoW budget?

In terms of who is at fault, what I can blame EA for is pushing the game out and I don't think six months more of beta would have made any difference at all. The game design from basics was bad, too much in very small instanced BGs rather than a more polished mass RVR game and resources misplaced in vast (empty and unwanted) PVE resources. On the latter, people point a lot at TOA which was what DAOC got wrong, but what they should also point at was Catacombs, which is what they got right. Right in the sense that it made levelling simpler, faster, and trivial in terms of commitment. It showed and to an extent serviced the reality that nobody in DAOC gave a damn about the PVE game whatsoever. War's failure should be laid on Mythic's doorstep.

[Bismallah]

That video really is one of the few times when I've looked at something and thought I'd prefer not to do business with a gaming company for moral reasons. It's unforgiveable and unacceptable.

I completely agree, and even felt so much earlier (as a lot of folks did). Paul's video crucifixions of the coder and developer were inexcusable, especially when you look at what Paul actually does for the company which as far as I can tell is not a fucking thing.

[Delmania]

In terms of who is at fault, what I can blame EA for is pushing the game out and I don't think six months more of beta would have made any difference at all.

How many times was the game's release delayed?  How patient do you want EA to be?

[LK]

Back to the actual game and trying to do WoW business without WoW level investment (time, resources, money etc.). Wasn't Mark babbling before release that the game was going to show you could have WoW polish without a WoW budget?

Mark says a lot of shit. He should tell people who he bets on for football games or the such so everyone can do the opposite.

[SnakeCharmer]

We are actually asking them to shut the fuck up.

I think we're asking them to drop the smoke screen and be more honest with the state of the game and the importance of the work of those who left.

Which does fuckall for anybody outside whatever company's payroll.

No one is ever going to come public with an employed mouthpiece and say 'Our game fucking sucks total donkey ass, bugged to shit, and there's so many problems with it that it would take a complete redesign and rewrite to fix'.  Not ever.  All you or anyone else will ever get, and all we deserve is 'We've got a game that has it's issues, no doubt about that.  But potential is there, and we intend to realize that potential.  You can be here and be apart of it, or watch it from the sidelines, but we're moving forward.'

The bloated sense of self importance and entitlement of MMO gamers hurts the industry more than it helps.  Pay and play if you like it.  Don't pay or play if you don't.  

Seems simple enough, eh?  But it's not.

[Numtini]

In terms of who is at fault, what I can blame EA for is pushing the game out and I don't think six months more of beta would have made any difference at all.

How many times was the game's release delayed?  How patient do you want EA to be?

Sorry I wasn't clear at all, what i meant was that if pushing it out the door had been the problem (but wasn't) that I could blame EA for, but that's not where I saw the major problems in the game. I saw the faults in basic game design, the things that Mythic (one assumes) were in charge of. The faults were not in systems that could have been fixed with more beta. Ie, I was giving EA a pass.

[WindupAtheist]

Back in the pre-WoW era, being able to vulture over an MMO trainwreck was a rare and delightful treat. Not as many of them seemed to come out, they weren't as expensive, and the standards for success were so much lower in those days. If something came out and it was kinda shitty, but still managed to grab 200 or 300k subscribers, you called it a success and moved on.

Now? VanguardAutoAssaultTabulaRasaConanWarhammerHolyFuckingShit! Has ANYTHING been a success since WoW came out? EVE is plugging along and trending upwards in its tiny little niche, and that's one of the few bright spots. Everyone talks about what a turnaround EQ2 has made, but it only wishes it had the subscribers of peak EQ1.

Also, it sucks that people have lost their jobs. But I've publicly cackled over the smoldering ruins of too many would-be blockbuster movies with more riding on them than any MMO for my condolences to carry much weight, so I won't really bother.

[Delmania]

Which does fuckall for anybody outside whatever company's payroll.

No one is ever going to come public with an employed mouthpiece and say 'Our game fucking sucks total donkey ass, bugged to shit, and there's so many problems with it that it would take a complete redesign and rewrite to fix'.  Not ever.  All you or anyone else will ever get, and all we deserve is 'We've got a game that has it's issues, no doubt about that.  But potential is there, and we intend to realize that potential.  You can be here and be apart of it, or watch it from the sidelines, but we're moving forward.'

The bloated sense of self importance and entitlement of MMO gamers hurts the industry more than it helps.  Pay and play if you like it.  Don't pay or play if you don't.  

Seems simple enough, eh?  But it's not.

Are you that dense?  Simple PR, build the confidence of those who want to stay, and maybe net a few who are the verge if coming back.

The 2 issues staring Mythic in the face is the subscription numbers and the layoffs.  The latter were handled with an epic fail.  The former, well, while I think EA wanted those numbers to be a positive announcement, it also representes a staggering  drop from previously announced numbers, and the blogs and sites are abuzz with what it means.   Hell, a simple "300,000 - we're happy with that and working hard to get more!" would suffice.  

Acknowledge the bad, put a positive spin on it, and the use something like the Russian release to show the improvements of the game.  Let people know you are paying attention to the stories around your game, and use them to retain and maybe even snag a few back in.  Really simple PR.

[SnakeCharmer]

Do yourself a favor and re-read what I wrote.  Then edit your post accordingly.

[Venkman]

Simple PR, build the confidence of those who want to stay, and maybe net a few who are the verge if coming back.

Normally that'd make sense. Not that easy in this case though.

You can often draw new users in through some clever marketing and whitewashing WAR's own marketing is what set them up to fail. The impression they gave as a viable alternative to WoW was not matched by the experience that was delivered. And being they hyped this directly to the veteran vultures AND the WoW player, you had millions of people watching. And these are the players not coming back without substantive changes to the core systems.

Which is the second problem. You need to have a team willing to a) admit there's things wrong at the most fundamental level; and, b) be willing to soak it up and go fix it. The reason they haven't done that to date revolves around the very people still employed.

PR can only open the door. It's the game that draws people through it.

[Mrbloodworth]

The bloated sense of self importance and entitlement of MMO gamers hurts the industry more than it helps.  Pay and play if you like it.  Don't pay or play if you don't.  

QFT.

I love reading about how "They screwed us" and "They should tell us everything that goes on in the office" and, of course..."They owe us".

[Delmania]

QFT.

I love reading about how "They screwed us" and "They should tell us everything that goes on in the office" and, of course..."They owe us".

I'll agree that the MMO player base is whiny, demanding, and petulant.  I am one of the first to say if you don't like a game, don't play it, and more often then not, I'll try to defend a company's decisions. 
 
However,  this isn't self entitlement.  The PR statement on the Herald was a big shaft to those workers, and by not addressing the subscription numbers in light of all the other numbers and statements by MJ, Mythic has left the door open even wider to critics that is had to be.  Mythic had a chance for some PR spinining and improving their image a little... but then MJ had to open his mouth.  It's frustrating because I want WAR to turn around and succeed, because the concpt of RvR is fun.

[schild]

For as many people that complain loudly and are completely irrational, I worry more about the ones that play, don't say anything, and disappear when things go south. For them it's pay, play, and pray.