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UnSub
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Reply #770 on: September 08, 2009, 02:03:17 AM

Knockdown, Stun and Stagger


christ this game needs a fucking NGE

I don't think Mythic is having any problems driving away players.

EDIT: to complete my sentence.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 02:09:48 AM by UnSub »

Shatter
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Reply #771 on: September 08, 2009, 06:09:24 AM

Sweet, you can be "staggered" for 12 seconds in a PvP fight, might as well go make a dam coffee if that happens. 
01101010
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Reply #772 on: September 08, 2009, 06:22:31 AM

There's going to be a stagger bar right?

I admit, this one got my lulz. Good play sir.

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
Sheepherder
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Reply #773 on: September 08, 2009, 07:18:01 AM

Sweet, you can be "staggered" for 12 seconds in a PvP fight, might as well go make a dam coffee if that happens.

Does Warhammer not have CC breaking trinkets/abilities?
Nebu
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Reply #774 on: September 08, 2009, 07:36:36 AM

Does Warhammer not have CC breaking trinkets/abilities?

Not that I remember.  If it did, I'm sure they'd be just as useless as they are in WoW.  

If you're going to put cc in a pvp game, at least have classes with the ability to remove that cc and install an immunity timer.  Hell, DAoC learned this YEARS ago. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Megrim
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Reply #775 on: September 08, 2009, 08:19:20 AM

Some. My Warrior Priest had one around 18-ish i think. I used to savour the delicious panic of the Chaos Sorcs that would pop their icecage only to have me keep on running and drop them in three hits with my warhammer.

One must bow to offer aid to a fallen man - The Tao of Shinsei.
Lantyssa
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Reply #776 on: September 08, 2009, 09:26:03 AM

I remember my Swordmaster having something.  Fairly long timer though, so I'd break something then get held again.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Shatter
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Reply #777 on: September 08, 2009, 10:37:43 AM

Sweet, you can be "staggered" for 12 seconds in a PvP fight, might as well go make a dam coffee if that happens.

Does Warhammer not have CC breaking trinkets/abilities?

They have one that costs 5 reknown points to get, ridiculous cost. 
ghost
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Reply #778 on: September 08, 2009, 11:10:10 AM

Why would you have CC in a PvP game?  Either only a few classes get it and it is irritating, or everyone gets it and it is useless.  All it does is slow the action down and make people angry.  Why bother?
Nebu
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Reply #779 on: September 08, 2009, 12:35:11 PM

Why would you have CC in a PvP game?  Either only a few classes get it and it is irritating, or everyone gets it and it is useless.  All it does is slow the action down and make people angry.  Why bother?

1) It can be used strategically.  In DAoC you could mez a group forcing a demezzer to have to purge and then waste a spell to demezz.  It was also a way to give a single group a brief advantage against a larger force.  Alternatively, it was an escape tool for when you were outnumbered. 

2) It's a way to negate the ranged advantage some classes have against melee.

3) Slowing the action down is generally a good thing.  In an MMO, it generates more strategy-based combat instead of twitch.  If you want pure twitch, there are a bajillion FPS for that.  If the action is too fast in an MMO, then you're killed more quickly than you can react... which sucks.

CC has its place in PvP MMO's.  Sadly, it has yet to be implemented properly.  Armchair design discussions follow. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Kail
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Reply #780 on: September 08, 2009, 01:33:26 PM

Sweet, you can be "staggered" for 12 seconds in a PvP fight, might as well go make a dam coffee if that happens. 

Stagger theoretically breaks on damage, like a WoW rogue's Sap.  With the amount of AoE flying around in this game, I don't see stagger being a problem for anyone other than healers.  I suspect it was implemented to curb the trend of kamikazeing Disciples/Warpriests into the middle of groups for their AoE stun, then mowing down the entire group with Wizards/Sorcerers.

I like the idea of concentrating CC in the tank classes, that at least sounds nice.

Re: CC breaking trinkets:
Most melee classes have a root/snare breaking ability, but I don't know of a way to counter stun.
Hayduke
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Reply #781 on: September 08, 2009, 06:49:29 PM

I think PvP does need CC. Just not the abundance that WAR gives it. It's not fun being rendered helpless and going from 100%-0 in a few seconds. Nor is it fun when you're about to kill someone and your bonehead teammates decide to punt them to safety. Nobody is judicious about CC just because everyone has tons of it available. Any fight you're in you can expect to be snared even if it's a waste of a cooldown.
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Reply #782 on: September 08, 2009, 07:07:36 PM


Their logic seems valid. Short lasting stuns with any remotely long lasting CC being a mez and having diminishing returns.

The only real question is why it took this long? It's so blindingly obvious that having a long lasting AoE stun in a PvP game is going to be imbalanced and massively exploited. This should have been part of the initial design and the classes balanced accordingly.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
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Reply #783 on: September 08, 2009, 08:40:23 PM

The only real question is why it took this long? It's so blindingly obvious that having a long lasting AoE stun in a PvP game is going to be imbalanced and massively exploited. This should have been part of the initial design and the classes balanced accordingly.

Have you played WoW?  It's possible to be cc'ed nonstop with only a purge available every 2 mins + racials or class abilities. 

Developers haven't learned about cc and its proper place in pvp any more than they've learned about stealth. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
ghost
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Reply #784 on: September 08, 2009, 09:26:20 PM

Why would you have CC in a PvP game?  Either only a few classes get it and it is irritating, or everyone gets it and it is useless.  All it does is slow the action down and make people angry.  Why bother?

1) It can be used strategically.  In DAoC you could mez a group forcing a demezzer to have to purge and then waste a spell to demezz.  It was also a way to give a single group a brief advantage against a larger force.  Alternatively, it was an escape tool for when you were outnumbered. 

2) It's a way to negate the ranged advantage some classes have against melee.

3) Slowing the action down is generally a good thing.  In an MMO, it generates more strategy-based combat instead of twitch.  If you want pure twitch, there are a bajillion FPS for that.  If the action is too fast in an MMO, then you're killed more quickly than you can react... which sucks.

CC has its place in PvP MMO's.  Sadly, it has yet to be implemented properly.  Armchair design discussions follow. 


I get it.  All these reasons are bandied about all the time.  However, arguably the most fun in either WOW or WAR is in the lower level BGs where there is no CC.  It isn't needed for a good time, so why have it?  I hear your reasons, but that doesn't mean it is necessary.  So many games try to implement the same crap.  Why not try one without?
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Reply #785 on: September 08, 2009, 09:29:31 PM



Quote
Have you played WoW?  It's possible to be cc'ed nonstop with only a purge available every 2 mins + racials or class abilities. 

Even if that were true it's not very relevant as a counter-argument. The fact that WoW (which is a primarily PvE game anyway) got it wrong as well doesn't make it any better here.

Though I'm pretty sure there's no AoE stuns (or mezzes) in WoW and pretty much all long duration CC (sheep, gouge, frog, fear) is interruptible by damage. Pretty much the same system they're implementing here.

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Nebu
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Reply #786 on: September 08, 2009, 09:59:58 PM

I get it.  All these reasons are bandied about all the time.  However, arguably the most fun in either WOW or WAR is in the lower level BGs where there is no CC.  It isn't needed for a good time, so why have it?  I hear your reasons, but that doesn't mean it is necessary.  So many games try to implement the same crap.  Why not try one without?

As I've posted for the last 4+ years on this, waterthread, and LtM before that, I think that cc should be minimal to non-existent in pvp mmo's.   You didn't ask my opinion.  You asked for justification.  I agree with you.  I'd love to see a pvp MMO with minimal cc.  I'm just not going to hold my breath waiting for it. 

Even if that were true it's not very relevant as a counter-argument. The fact that WoW (which is a primarily PvE game anyway) got it wrong as well doesn't make it any better here.

WoW is an MMO that is making money hats by being everything to all people.  Writing it off as a pve game may be fundamentally correct, but you're dismissing a HUGE gaming crowd that is quite pvp active.  Hell... just look at the number of people playing daily on WoW's pvp servers.  They account for more subs than any other PvP MMO that I can think of in the west.  

WoW has made some gains on PvP accessibility but still misses the boat when it comes to cc, balance, and world feel.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #787 on: September 08, 2009, 10:11:52 PM

Quote
WoW is an MMO that is making money hats by being everything to all people.

No player housing or anything like that sort of throws that comment right out the window. It supports elf-loving fruitbags, but it doesn't support real virtual worldy people at ALL.
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Reply #788 on: September 08, 2009, 11:42:18 PM

There will be CC and stealth in PvP - and all the associated issues - because if they aren't there players complain about having them.

Fury got CC right (as far as I can remember) in that any damage broke the hold. Stealth should be broken by character movement. These things need to have tactical / strategic advantages but move away from being a huge I WIN button.

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Reply #789 on: September 08, 2009, 11:42:34 PM

Quote
WoW is an MMO that is making money hats by being everything to all people.

No player housing or anything like that sort of throws that comment right out the window. It supports elf-loving fruitbags, but it doesn't support real virtual worldy people at ALL.

Too bad both attempts at a AAA open world game turned into ass.

-Rasix
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Reply #790 on: September 09, 2009, 12:46:02 AM

Quote
WoW is an MMO that is making money hats by being everything to all people.

No player housing or anything like that sort of throws that comment right out the window. It supports elf-loving fruitbags, but it doesn't support real virtual worldy people at ALL.

Too bad both attempts at a AAA open world game turned into ass.
Well, yea, but that's neither here nor there.
Shatter
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Reply #791 on: September 09, 2009, 06:16:45 AM

Some CC isnt a horrible thing, like short snares(2-3 seconds) or maybe even a casting slowdown for only a couple seconds.  Effects like Silence for 7 seconds or disable where you cant do ANYTHING, not even move is excessive and nothing more then aggravating for every class that doesnt have it.  PvP happens very fast and effects that last 7 seconds is like a lifetime.  Once again, too bad it took WHO a year to decide to remove / change this crap. 
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Reply #792 on: September 09, 2009, 07:14:17 AM

In concept I can see why CC is included in these games and I can agree with the reasons on paper.  On the other hand, the most fun I've had PvPing in an MMO (or in this case, a 'semi' MMO) was in Guild Wars where there's very little CC and no stealth.  If I remember correctly, the only CC in Guild Wars were some snares and Knockdown, which could be considered a one or two second stun.  I'm interested to see if they keep the same design philosophy in Guild Wars 2.

Over and out.
Nebu
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Reply #793 on: September 09, 2009, 07:17:33 AM

No player housing or anything like that sort of throws that comment right out the window. It supports elf-loving fruitbags, but it doesn't support real virtual worldy people at ALL.

The comment was made in a PvE vs PvP context.  You know that WoW doesn't contain every MMO component.  I know this as well.  You're being all nit-picky and stuff. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
DLRiley
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Reply #794 on: September 09, 2009, 10:01:00 AM

Quote
WoW is an MMO that is making money hats by being everything to all people.

No player housing or anything like that sort of throws that comment right out the window. It supports elf-loving fruitbags, but it doesn't support real virtual worldy people at ALL.

Player housing is up there with fun crafting system and fishing. To people who like that crap are playing UO and to a lesser extent EVE.

As far as CC is concerned CC has always been consistently designed for A. PVE and B. Large scale encounters, which means in the immediate small scale where there isn't a lag inducing number of players on the screen, CC will always suck because that's where developers primarily design it for. Same with stealth, the large scale pvp potential outstrips all the practical uses when its 5v5, making it always unbalanced if there isn't a stupid number of players on screen. DAOC will always be a horrible reference point. Where it doesn't matter when everyone in immediate line of sight range can't moved, that is inherently bad design even if that's perfectly fine and working as intended when there are 300 players on screen.
Redgiant
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Reply #795 on: September 09, 2009, 02:34:12 PM

Another common problem with CC in MMOs I've played is they don't apply their use "evenly" in terms of the restricted uses they ought to be employed in, for the compensatory intent they should be for.

I'd go further and say that most CC should be limited in its application to certain opposing races/classes and not "everyone", since as soon as you allow grab bag CC you inherently have unbalanced the equations which supposedly were delicately going to apply it only to the cases they want it to be for.

Example: If you balance your game to allow, say, root on a tank to balance out the fact that he'll squish a certain kind of caster the moment he gets in range, but then other classes that aren't so squishy can also apply that CC, or classes that aren't so tanky can also be hit by the CC, it gets out of hand fast when you multiply that unintended consequences thing x50.

Truth is, the balance from one race/class to another race/class is often very specific in need, but very coarse in implementation. CC is just one of the most obvious and eggregious examples of this.

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Reply #796 on: September 09, 2009, 06:00:49 PM

I think CC is just too damn slippery of a slope to be honest.   As others have said, I like the idea, and I *believe* I can understand from a design standpoint the intent.   But from Eq1 Zek servers through daoc, sb.exe, WoW, War etc.  I have never seen Cc not end up being one of the most frustrating aspects of pvp.  From being Mez'd by a chanter, feared by a monk, to those fuckers on frisbees in WaR it is ...

meh I am just ranting at this point.

Back to my original thought, I think CC is just too dangerous.  Any form of CC that you put in players hands will eventually morph into something that really f's with the gameplay of others.  I can see it in the pve context of course but in pvp it always is a bugger.

 Ohhhhh, I see. hmm quite the hypocrite here I guess as my characters have ranged from Mid PAC healers,  to rogues and Witchunters.

"There is dignity and deep satisfaction in facing life and death without the comfort of heaven or the fear of hell and in sailing toward the great abyss with a smile."
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Reply #797 on: September 09, 2009, 06:50:29 PM

Its the the whole balance for pve, balance for large scale encounters, but a half a dozen guys who can't move? Who cares. I don't think Dev will stop balancing this way which will always make CC unfun. Most devs don't even think there is an intermediate sweet spot between 1v1 and 300v300. Hence its much easier to balance for 300 vs 300, mostly because it doesn't have to balanced and secondly the players aren't smart enough to notice, rage yes, but point at the problem and provide useful feedback? Hell no.
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Reply #798 on: September 09, 2009, 07:29:25 PM

In concept I can see why CC is included in these games and I can agree with the reasons on paper.  On the other hand, the most fun I've had PvPing in an MMO (or in this case, a 'semi' MMO) was in Guild Wars where there's very little CC and no stealth.  If I remember correctly, the only CC in Guild Wars were some snares and Knockdown, which could be considered a one or two second stun.  I'm interested to see if they keep the same design philosophy in Guild Wars 2.


I don't see why they would change it.

There is also some indirect CC in guildwars. Debuffs that make it so you aren't actually prevented from casting a spell, but make doing so a bad idea for the next few seconds.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #799 on: September 09, 2009, 08:11:27 PM

The key to putting CC in PvP is the "control" part. So long as the player still has a choice, they can experience that choice themselves. I'll echo the opinion that Guildwars got that just about right. A lot of its negative abilities are phrased conditionally. Assuming the afflicted players understand what's happening, they get to choose between temporary inaction and a nasty consequence. CC has either a difficult, specific use or a cooldown an order of magnitude longer than its effect.

WoW gets this right in some of the abilities of its mobs, especially raid bosses... don't cast spells at me now or they'll reflect at you, don't attack me now or you'll get a debuff, don't attack me during this spell or you'll give me a buff, run away from me during this spell (not because of a fear, but because of an uninterruptable, telegraphed AOE). In PvP, player abilities should function similarly. The CC user succeeds by anticipating an opponent's actions, the opponent succeeds by anticipating the CC.
Sheepherder
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Reply #800 on: September 09, 2009, 08:51:01 PM

Not that I remember.  If it did, I'm sure they'd be just as useless as they are in WoW.

You are pretty clueless if you think that the trinkets in WoW are useless.

Protip: trinketed CC still incurs diminishing returns on the next CC applied to you.

EDIT: Or you've never trinketed out of a repentance while the paladin is waddling up to you going "Hur Hur Hurr I'm gunna make you bleed!"
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 09:12:31 PM by Sheepherder »
Nebu
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Reply #801 on: September 10, 2009, 08:53:55 AM

Not that I remember.  If it did, I'm sure they'd be just as useless as they are in WoW.

Clueless.  Nice touch. 

Trinkets have their value, but I find them to be limited given the overabundance of cc in WoW pvp.  For 1v1 trinkets do the job IF (and only if) you watch the combat log carefully and trinket out of the correct ability.  In a 2v1 situation, you begin to see the overabundance of cc clearly.  I'm used to playing a more pvp focused game where cc either breaks immediately on damage or you're given cc immunity to that type for a period of 5x the duration of the original cc.  You could also gear resistances to minimize the effects of cc to a much greater extent than you can in WoW. 

Maybe I am clueless and just need more time in WoW pvp.  My knee-jerk reaction after playing on both a pvp and pve server is that WoW suffers the same level of cc overabundance that is found in nearly every other mmo.  A two minute trinket is some help but doesn't do enough to maintain my control of my toon over an extended fight.   This is particularly the case in BG's and WG. 

I don't know what they were thinking giving DK's that stupid pull ability.  I got sick enough of that from Magus in WAR. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Shatter
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Reply #802 on: September 10, 2009, 12:32:01 PM

You would hate the Templar pull in Aion then lol
Sheepherder
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Reply #803 on: September 10, 2009, 02:45:28 PM

Clueless.  Nice touch.

I generally refrain from calling people who don't piss me off retarded.

Quote
Trinkets have their value, but I find them to be limited given the overabundance of cc in WoW pvp.  For 1v1 trinkets do the job IF (and only if) you watch the combat log carefully and trinket out of the correct ability.  In a 2v1 situation, you begin to see the overabundance of cc clearly.  I'm used to playing a more pvp focused game where cc either breaks immediately on damage or you're given cc immunity to that type for a period of 5x the duration of the original cc.  You could also gear resistances to minimize the effects of cc to a much greater extent than you can in WoW.

You're not supposed to be able to win a 2v1.  Strictly from a numbers standpoint if you are to assume all other factors are equal you should not even be able to kill another player in a 2v1, so really I can't help you there except to say you should try improving your situational awareness.  In even numbers matches you just need to be able to assess your situation fast and know the relative merits of escaping certain types of CC, because Blizzard is generally pretty good at dishing out CC equally to most classes even if it is absurdly abundant.
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Reply #804 on: September 10, 2009, 04:09:41 PM

Not that I remember.  If it did, I'm sure they'd be just as useless as they are in WoW.
Trinkets have their value, but I find them to be limited given the overabundance of cc in WoW pvp.  For 1v1 trinkets do the job IF (and only if) you watch the combat log carefully and trinket out of the correct ability.


There are debuff icons and animations that are about 1000x's easier to read and react to compared to the combat log.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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