Next major patch announced: Apocrypha

[Amarr HM]

It's really simple instead of giving new players 800k in skills they might never need give them 800k in learning.

[Fordel]

Learning should be grandfathered in or whatever, yes. Talk about a "good idea at the time..." mistake when they put the learning skills in.


I've always thought skill training speed should be on some kind of curve, where a day old newbie trains 10x as fast until they reach X milestone, then trains 5x as fast until Y, etc, until they reach some kind of determined 'average' amount of SP across the game.

It's not like new fish can afford a battleship, even if he can train it faster.

[bhodi]

There is a solid 1-2m of 'support' skills that you simply need before you can fly ANY ship semi-effectively. I think a lot of people forget how painful it is with no SP. Oh, you can't equip X because you need 100k of support skills to fill the preequs, where X is everything from BCS to invuln fields to armor repair to MWDs to cruiser weapons. Seriously basic shit requires III-IV in stuff like electronics, navigation, repair, shield, weapon upgrades, each taking 4 days or so of training - a whole SLEW of things that just means more pain for the newbie.

In fact, the whole skill system qualifies as "a good idea at the time..." as regards to absolute necessity t1 basic loadouts. I almost quit after getting my caracal - training for days just to get in the hull, then more training to be able to equip the heavy missile launchers. I get all ready to go, ready for an evening of missions, I go to try and use them an OH WAIT the MISSILES require heavy missiles skill to be put in the launcher - that's another 8 hours training - I guess I'll go do something else tonight, fuck this game.

Double speed training doesn't even come close to offsetting it. Give them even MORE skills. Just give them L3 in ALL the support skills. Who cares? Does anyone really find 'book hunting' and logging in every 2 hours for training of a new skill that much fun? No, it's not. It's tedious. It's tedious to try and figure out what skills you need, which skills are good, and which can be passed up later. You end up having to use an external program to plan a skill training path, even (ESPECIALLY!) as a newbie. Lower the god damned bar to entry already.

[Morfiend]

There is a solid 1-2m of 'support' skills that you simply need before you can fly ANY ship semi-effectively. I think a lot of people forget how painful it is with no SP. Oh, you can't equip X because you need 100k of support skills to fill the preequs, where X is everything from BCS to invuln fields to armor repair to MWDs to cruiser weapons. Seriously basic shit requires III-IV in stuff like electronics, navigation, repair, shield, weapon upgrades, each taking 4 days or so of training - a whole SLEW of things that just means more pain for the newbie.

In fact, the whole skill system qualifies as "a good idea at the time..." as regards to absolute necessity t1 basic loadouts. I almost quit after getting my caracal - training for days just to get in the hull, then more training to be able to equip the heavy missile launchers. I get all ready to go, ready for an evening's of missions, I go to try and use them an OH WAIT the MISSILES require heavy missiles skill to be put in the launcher - that's another 8 hours training - I guess I'll go do something else tonight, fuck this game.

Double speed training doesn't even come close to offsetting it. Give them even MORE skills. Just give them L3 in ALL the support skills. Who cares? Does anyone really find 'book hunting' and logging in every 2 hours for training of a new skill that much fun? No, it's not. It's tedious. It's tedious to try and figure out what skills you need, which skills are good, and which can be passed up later. You end up having to use an external program to plan a skill training path, even (ESPECIALLY!) as a newbie. Lower the god damned bar to entry already.

As some one who is trying to break in to the game, I can attest to this 110%. Its very very frustrating. Honestly right now, it almost feels like the game is actively trying to make me not play.
And while the Tutorial is one of the best of any games, it doesnt even come close to giving you all the info you need as a newbie. If they had a better newbie experience I think they would have a lot more subs now than they currently do. Also, I know this game is supposed to be "hard mode" mmo or whatever, but some of the stuff seems overly complicated. Like which one of the 7 small laser turrets do I want? How can I tell? Shit like that is whats very frustrating. Oh this laser ammo does EM damage, wtf is that?

[bhodi]

If I were CCP, here is how I'd fix it.

1. Remove basic learning skills, or give everyone learning IV to start.
2. Give new players III in all basic skills (Say, basic skills are the ones with skill books costing less than 150k) and IV in 'core' skills (navigation, electronics, etc.)
3. Give new players 15 'ranks' of IV and 3 'ranks' of V. These can be allocated as the player chooses, and of course a rank 1 skill would cost 1 rank to IV/V, a rank 2 would cost 2, etc. Run some tests to confirm this doesn't let people overly powergame, such as Retail IV / Daytrading V. Correct if it does.

Alternate #3. Do some serious math and figure out a good balance of 'combat' support skills. Give them to all new players. New players should be able to fly a frigate and be a few days away from a cruiser and no more than 3 months away from a battleship.

Who am I kidding. This is the company who won't add "Stargates" to the default overview because it might seem "too complicated" for new people. Retards.

[Jayce]

Maybe it's just me, but if you get a lot of useless skills at character creation, isn't the real fix to give useful skills at character creation instead of NONE?

edit: but of course they won't change it, the outcry over ghost training did exactly jack to change their course.

[Amarr HM]

1. Remove basic learning skills, or give everyone learning IV to start.

That would probably suffice to be honest that's nearly 800k SP right there, I must admit I found it initially fun finding out the new skills and what does what or relates to what. Also what's more useful than a character with decent learning skills at least you can start mapping out your skills from there starting with salvaging straight away.

[Goumindong]

If you thought that was retarded wait until you hear the details of W space, which i will now go over to explain how retarded they are

1. You cannot leave W space if you do not have a scanner, don't worry if you die, the sleepers will POD you.
2. There is nothing in the "belts" no ore, no rats
3. Local is in delayed mode
4. You have to find encounters using some sort of scanner


So basically its totally retarded and CCP has no fucking clue what they want out of it. The sleeper AI is supposedly good, but its also pretty much raid content that is going to destroy your triage repping carrier gang.

[Pezzle]

Delayed mode local and no way out!  HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Sir T]

If you thought that was retarded wait until you hear the details of W space, which i will now go over to explain how retarded they are

1. You cannot leave W space if you do not have a scanner, don't worry if you die, the sleepers will POD you.
2. There is nothing in the "belts" no ore, no rats
3. Local is in delayed mode
4. You have to find encounters using some sort of scanner


So basically its totally retarded and CCP has no fucking clue what they want out of it. The sleeper AI is supposedly good, but its also pretty much raid content that is going to destroy your triage repping carrier gang.

What is this shit? That's like a exploration site that you cant get out of and is a pirate camping trap.

[Reg]

Every time CCP does something like this they just confirm to me that the success of EVE was a fluke. How much do you want to bet that this next game they're working on is a huge flop?

[ajax34i]

I will talk more about the skills and their effects in my next blog.

To me that sounds like they're going to re-vamp skills so that they do something other than just unlocking ships/gear.

[Fordel]

Every time CCP does something like this they just confirm to me that the success of EVE was a fluke. How much do you want to bet that this next game they're working on is a huge flop?

EVE is in the same position EQ enjoyed before pretty much. There just isn't ANYTHING else if you want a spaceship or 'world' MMO game.


We can only hope the WoW version of EVE comes out in our lifetime.

[Goumindong]

If I were CCP, here is how I'd fix it.

Training through skills to get various levels of bonuses is good. It gives players tradeoffs of different specialization for their time.

The problem is entirely in pre-requisites. Hell Tech 2 equipment should not have prerequisites(aside from "level 1" maybe). The 40% more fitting space, 20% more dps, 15% more range, 50% more cap, 25% more EHP, etc etc etc should be reason enough to train the skills

[MahrinSkel]

For a while it looked like they were going to steadily relax training reqs to make it easier to catch up, by dropping 5 pre-reqs to 4 (as they did with Learning skills).  So you wouldn't need Frigate 5 to train Assault Frigates anymore, and eventually this would work it's way through to being able to train for Dreads without needing 6 different rank 8+ skills at 5.

Apparently not.  I'm starting to think that Eve is suffering from the common First Game malady, where all the most talented people want to be moved to the new projects, so the old one suffers from neglect and a lack of long-term focus.  Eve's second wind may simply have been the product of being all that CCP had to live for, for a much longer period than normal.

--Dave

[apocrypha]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: CCP do NOT want EVE to be massively popular. They've had very slow, but very consistent growth now for years. They know that if their subs rocketed that they simply wouldn't be able to cope in any way, so slow, steady growth in a small niche is what they're happy with. The harsh, harsh newbie experience is their main weapon in keeping things like that.

I suspect that the top CCP honchos see EVE as their first run and that they're hoping their next MMO will be the big money-spinner. EVE is the tech-demo. Ambulation is a good example - it will serve no useful purpose in EVE whatsoever but it'll be awesome experience for CCP for the next game.

Either that or they're all insane gibbering morons.

[kildorn]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: CCP do NOT want EVE to be massively popular. They've had very slow, but very consistent growth now for years. They know that if their subs rocketed that they simply wouldn't be able to cope in any way, so slow, steady growth in a small niche is what they're happy with. The harsh, harsh newbie experience is their main weapon in keeping things like that.

I suspect that the top CCP honchos see EVE as their first run and that they're hoping their next MMO will be the big money-spinner. EVE is the tech-demo. Ambulation is a good example - it will serve no useful purpose in EVE whatsoever but it'll be awesome experience for CCP for the next game.

Either that or they're all insane gibbering morons.

I've seen little evidence that would place malice against newbies and income over stupidity.

Eve's initial design was pretty brilliant. The market worked amazingly well, income wasn't out of control (aside from insurance fraud), and the rock/paper/scissors of ship classes was pretty decent. Waaaay back.

And then it seems like those dudes either quit or started drinking heavily, and you got POS warfare, a larger grind to get basic ships, a lot more "you must put 5's in everything!" requirements, etc etc.

[Comstar]

I am reminded of what Tommy Franks one described Douglas Feith as.

CCP says you're all idiots for wanting some warning when attackers are in system. Yes, you LIKE pressing the scan button every 2 seconds. Also, CCP can't think of a way to make a PvE gang fight a PvP gang, maybe the players will instead.

CCP Prism X
CCP    
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:31:00

   

Originally by: Max TeranousI have pointed out a flaw in the design. The design (as we currently understand it) requires members of your gang in W-space to button mash the scan button every few seconds in order to get some warning of incoming hostiles. THIS IS NOT FUN.

That's not how I intend to keep the rest of my gang safe. I'll be doing heavy scanning anyways so the fact that I have to press the scanning button isn't a byproduct of delayed local but more a byproduct of wormhole space. If you don't want to press that button you really shouldn't go there in the first place, whether you intend to roam or run plexes.

However, that doesn't really answer my question at all. The fact that you cannot be bothered to scan regularly does not shaft PvE plex runners when it comes to roaming gangs and the fact that local is delayed. I'm pretty sure some industrious people will figure out great setups for staying safe. Humans are pretty adaptive and inventive.
Besides, as unrelated as the argument is, it applies to both sides. If it's universally true that nobody wants to press that button more than once a day that has to apply to roamers as well. They will NOT have the patience to triangulate the plex runner ships if they've got the patience to do a deep scan for ship presence in the first place. You seem to think that it's enough to enter the system, press scan and all the plex-runners go *pop*. That's just not how it is.

Besides, you could always have fun with leaving a couple of Hulks by an armed POS. Wink

Edit:
As to alliances bringing in their blobs and pwning everything that's running PvE missions...
First of all you need to keep in mind that blobs are pre-nerfed due to mass restrictions. But if they manage to find a wormhole that will accept their blob, and they want to go punk plex runners rather than take to their frontlines.. I have no problem with that. As always, we only provide tools. Tools can be sharp instruments with edges on both sides. I for one will be the first to lol when alliances start losing space because half their fleet is locked inside of Sleeper Space ganking carebears. Twisted Evil

[Murgos]

CCP's decisions kind of make sense if you look at it from their point of view.  They think the skill system is a great mechanic for advancement and they think that dangling carrots waaaaaay off in the distance has been what's kept people playing.  It's becoming apparent that this release is about a raid level PVE experience with raid gear rewards.

Why won't people spend 8 months training skills to fly a marginally useful ship?  They do it now.

Why won't people spend huge amounts of ISK for marginal increases in utility and ability?  They do it now.

Why won't people grind, grind, grind in that ISK in high risk, low reward scenarios?  They do it now.

I am disappointed that it sounds like the current implementation nerfs drones into near uselessness now.  Reports are that sleepers will target, with near instant lock (probably due to the MWD mechanics) and pop drones the moment they appear.  Maybe the mechanic can be used to speed tank them with Warrior II's but we'll see.

Edit: the post above mine shows that the CCP devs have developed an, "It's us against the players." mindset.  That has never worked well.  Every successful approach to gaming has been, "It's our job to help the players have fun."

[Comstar]

So far I have heard that Sleepers can kill a Dread in Siege, a Command ship being remote repped by a carrier, will kill all drones, drain cap at the same time as doing damage with a new weapon, speed tank vs players, target logistics ships, target tacklers that are slowing them down, call priority target on whats doing the most damage AND you are limited on the amount oif ships you can bring in yourself by mass.


I think I've found a use for Assault Frigates.

[Goumindong]

Prism rarely knows what he is talking about. He is a database guy, i do not know why they let him on the forums.

[Jayce]

CCP Prism X
CCP    
Posted - 2009.02.19 15:31:00
  
you really shouldn't go there in the first place

This is the only important part of the whole post. Let them spend all their time perfecting sucker space.  I was interested at first, but they seem to have created a paragon of the least fun aspects of EVE.  That's one less thing for me to worry about experiencing.

[Amarr HM]

Sounds like they are creating a place for all the whiners who want a delayed local they go there hunting pve-rs who probably won't be there and get stuck there forever in wormhole-hell, so a good idea then

[Reg]

I guess this means the tech 3 stuff is going to be incredibly expensive to make. Luckily, from what I've heard nobody is going to want it anyway.

[Phred]

Eve makes it's own Trials of Atlantis expansion?

[Pax]

So, ugh...

Lowsec gets boosted with 500k BS rats, 0.0 gets nerfed by having all regions equal (some are "more equal than others" right now) and you can no longer chain belts, because belt rats warp in and out at will.

T3 ships are quite nice, although buggy and unfinished in their current incarnation and definitely weird looking. The new slot flexibility allows for sick Amarr shield tanks firing lasers, or viable ewar support shutting down 5 ships with a reasonable armour buffer.
Makes me wish they omitted the bit about bonii, as bonii would somewhat force certain combinations over others...

[Endie]

So, ugh...

Lowsec gets boosted with 500k BS rats, 0.0 gets nerfed by having all regions equal (some are "more equal than others" right now) and you can no longer chain belts, because belt rats warp in and out at will.

You serious?  Are they really doing this?  Just to nerf Delve?

What do you mean all 0.0 is made equal?  That would be an awful idea that would remove the point of many conflicts (once in 0.0, there is still a point in fighting someone in order to get their better space).

[Pax]

"We've taken the opportunity to completely revamp the way system truesec works. As such, all 0.0 regions now have roughly the same chance of spawning faction and officer rats. In the vast majority of regions this resulted in a significant buff to those making their income via ratting. We consider this a large improvement to the risk/reward of living in 0.0 space. However, in the process we did find and address a database error that was causing far more rare spawns than intended in certain NPC regions, such as Delve."

Bolded the funny parts.

-Edit-

viable ewar support shutting down 5 ships with a reasonable armour buffer

I take it back.
6 mid slots, but only 2 lockable targets - what were they thinking 

[Amarr HM]

Isn't the whole T3 ship thing brokan on SISI atm?

[Predator Irl]

"We've taken the opportunity to completely revamp the way system truesec works. As such, all 0.0 regions now have roughly the same chance of spawning faction and officer rats. In the vast majority of regions this resulted in a significant buff to those making their income via ratting. We consider this a large improvement to the risk/reward of living in 0.0 space. However, in the process we did find and address a database error that was causing far more rare spawns than intended in certain NPC regions, such as Delve."

Bolded the funny parts.

You have got to be f**kin joking me! You know what, I do believe I said this would happen as soon as we hit Bob!

[Endie]

This is hilarious, since it really does play into the hands of those of us who say that Bob/Kenny always had special treatment.  I wasn't going to rat Blood Raiders anyway, so it's no biggie for me, but still: they couldn't make it any more obvious if they tried.

On the other hand, clearly CCP believes we are going to take Delve now

[Endie]

"We've taken the opportunity to completely revamp the way system truesec works. As such, all 0.0 regions now have roughly the same chance of spawning faction and officer rats. In the vast majority of regions this resulted in a significant buff to those making their income via ratting. We consider this a large improvement to the risk/reward of living in 0.0 space. However, in the process we did find and address a database error that was causing far more rare spawns than intended in certain NPC regions, such as Delve."

Also, link or it didn't happen.

[Goumindong]

I believe its more hilarious because it was a troll on the goon board.

[eldaec]

"We've taken the opportunity to completely revamp the way system truesec works. As such, all 0.0 regions now have roughly the same chance of spawning faction and officer rats. In the vast majority of regions this resulted in a significant buff to those making their income via ratting. We consider this a large improvement to the risk/reward of living in 0.0 space. However, in the process we did find and address a database error that was causing far more rare spawns than intended in certain NPC regions, such as Delve."

Bolded the funny parts.

Can't find this quote on any recent blogs or posts. Where are you looking?

[Pax]

Guess I'll retire from this "rumour" with the knowledge of not being the only one to have fallen for it :(