Lost [FINALE SPOILERS PAGE 25 ONWARDS]

[TripleDES]

The first bunch of seasons were cool, since they were still unfolding everything and didn't make you question the quality of the mystery yet.

But now after the finale? Sure, it was all about protecting the damn island. Except, the island is what exactly? Apart from having a fucking light with no known purpose apart from causing earthquakes? I guess I didn't pay enough attention anymore, especially that since season 4, there were always more and more forced conflicts, with new groups showing up from god knows where. Always when it seemed there were finally some answers coming, a new faction shows up and ruins everyone's shit. Just like that fucking temple in this season.

[Tebonas]

I always like going back and reading the first few pages of these threads. It reminded me that the writers / creators were made statements that the Island wasn't Purgatory.

 

Which is completely true, because the Sideways reality was Purgatory, and everybody that survived the crash was still alive until they died of different causes.

[Arthur_Parker]

everybody that survived the crash was still alive until they died of different causes.

Your comment prompted me to think how lucky they were surviving the plane crash. 

Roughly 253 people die in the initial crash of Oceanic Flight 815. The only survivors are in the middle section, the tail and the cockpit, all of which land in different places.
Gary Troup is sucked into one of the plane's engine and dies
Captain Seth Norris is killed by The Monster.
Edward Mars, severely injured in the crash, is euthanized by Jack.
Barbara Joanna Miller drowns in a riptide.
Scott Jackson is killed, presumably by Ethan
Boone Carlyle falls in the drug smugglers' plane and dies of an internal hemorrhage
Dr. Leslie Arzt is blown up while handling dynamite.
Shannon Rutherford is accidentally shot by Ana Lucia.
Donald dies from an infection of a leg injury.
Nathan is killed by Goodwin.
Ana Lucia Cortez is shot in the chest by Michael.
Libby Smith is accidentally shot by Michael
Neil "Frogurt" is burnt to death after being shot with a flaming arrow.
Seventeen unnamed crash survivors are killed in the flaming arrow attack
Two unnamed crash survivors are blown up
Eko Tunde is killed by the Monster
Nikki Fernandez and Paulo are accidentally buried alive, having been found paralysed and presumed dead.
Charlie Pace drowns as a result of the detonation
Doug, Jerome and an unnamed female crash survivor are killed by Keamy or one of his men. An unnamed woman goes missing and is presumably killed as well.
Michael Dawson dies in the Kahana explosion.
Ben strangles John Locke to death.
Sayid Jarrah is blown up with C4 saving his friends
Sun Kwon and Jin Kwon drown in the submarine explosion
Jack Shephard is stabbed by The Man in Black and later dies from his wounds after repairing The Source

[Sir T]

I read an apt description this morning. It talked about battered viewers syndrome. It lied to us, insulted us, but you still went back again and again looking for that spark of true love that you just knew was there, dammit. And when it finally left you in the lurch, you feel empty.  

[Arthur_Parker]

Unanswered Lost Questions

Again, only posting because I thought it was funny.

[Mrbloodworth]

Fuck this show, i'm done with it, I wont be watching any more.

[Vaiti]

I always like going back and reading the first few pages of these threads. It reminded me that the writers / creators were made statements that the Island wasn't Purgatory.

 

Which is completely true, because the Sideways reality was Purgatory, and everybody that survived the crash was still alive until they died of different causes.

That just made me realize exactly how much square hole round pegging they did here to make it fit.

[March]

I always like going back and reading the first few pages of these threads. It reminded me that the writers / creators were made statements that the Island wasn't Purgatory.

 

Which is completely true, because the Sideways reality was Purgatory, and everybody that survived the crash was still alive until they died of different causes.

Except we were led to believe the "sideways" reality was created by Juliette detonating a nuclear bomb on the "real" island at the feet of the "real" survivors in a "real" point in time which really would have killed them (a few times over)... but no, that propelled them back into the future.  And, "it worked" - we were told.  but now the nuclear bomb event doesn't make sense because the sideways reality is outside time/space and exists without regard to the bomb.  So, it didn't "work" - at least not in the way we were led to believe.  Unless they all died in a nuclear explosion at that time and went "sideways" but then the whole of season six is predicated on them surviving the explosion.  So, either they died in the explosion (clearly not the case, given s6) or they set-up an arc that they abandoned _during_ the climactic writing of their ending.

The sideways reality, is probably the least thought-out of the mysteries, precisely because it has nothing to do with anything they ever wrote, and dollars-to-doughnuts the whole notion was hastily concocted at the time they wrote season six.  The island as purgatory could have made sense; I suspect it did make sense, and it probably was the original arc (esp w/Ekko)...but it seems they caught a tiger by its tail and lost whatever coherence they might have originally conceived.  It is precisely the "internal" incoherencies that are sloppy... because those are the things they, the writers, can control.  So, no, it is not "deep" and it is not a genius stroke of master story-telling.

Simple answer: this is the way JJ Abrams and his ilk work... they read the feedback of their audience, and try to write things precisely to confound the audience.  Fine... makes for a fun cat and mouse game; Alias was kinda fun too, in that way (until it became mind crushingly stupid).  But honestly, that kind of writing is C-grade at best.  If you want to earn high marks, then you need to be smarter than your audience and spin order out of chaos - then you'll impress me with your genius.  Otherwise you are just hacks with a TV show and an Internet connection.

[Vaiti]

Except we were led to believe the "sideways" reality was created by Juliette detonating a nuclear bomb on the "real" island at the feet of the "real" survivors in a "real" point in time which really would have killed them (a few times over)... but no, that propelled them back into the future.  And, "it worked" - we were told.  but now the nuclear bomb event doesn't make sense because the sideways reality is outside time/space and exists without regard to the bomb.  So, it didn't "work" - at least not in the way we were led to believe.  Unless they all died in a nuclear explosion at that time and went "sideways" but then the whole of season six is predicated on them surviving the explosion.  So, either they died in the explosion (clearly not the case, given s6) or they set-up an arc that they abandoned _during_ the climactic writing of their ending.

The sideways reality, is probably the least thought-out of the mysteries, precisely because it has nothing to do with anything they ever wrote, and dollars-to-doughnuts the whole notion was hastily concocted at the time they wrote season six.  The island as purgatory could have made sense; I suspect it did make sense, and it probably was the original arc (esp w/Ekko)...but it seems they caught a tiger by its tail and lost whatever coherence they might have originally conceived.  It is precisely the "internal" incoherencies that are sloppy... because those are the things they, the writers, can control.  So, no, it is not "deep" and it is not a genius stroke of master story-telling.

Simple answer: this is the way JJ Abrams and his ilk work... they read the feedback of their audience, and try to write things precisely to confound the audience.  Fine... makes for a fun cat and mouse game; Alias was kinda fun too, in that way (until it became mind crushingly stupid).  But honestly, that kind of writing is C-grade at best.  If you want to earn high marks, then you need to be smarter than your audience and spin order out of chaos - then you'll impress me with your genius.  Otherwise you are just hacks with a TV show and an Internet connection.

I u.

Everything you've said is exactly what I think most of us feel but have been unable to articulate as well.
To cut off the the incoming Lostpoligist responce or the "LEAVE THE WRITERS AUTHORS ALONE! LEAVE THEM ALONE!" response, keep in mind we tend to think about things harder when we are invested and interested in them. All this criticism you can basically interpret as love for the show.

[AcidCat]

So, it didn't "work" - at least not in the way we were led to believe. 

Yes clearly the bomb instigating a parallel universe was a total red herring - and there have been plenty on the show - to mislead the audience so the revelation of "sideways purgatory" would be a suprise. There has always been an element of misdirection on the show.

[AcidCat]

keep in mind we tend to think about things harder when we are invested and interested in them. All this criticism you can basically interpret as love for the show.

Well there's love and then there's obsessive love. I think a lot of fans over-analyze things to the point where they ruin their own enjoyment and immersion.

[Vaiti]

Perhaps. But is that really so bad?

My wife calls me out my bullshit all the time. (bad example)

I still enjoyed the show regardless of the ending. I still watched every show. I just won't give them a free pass.
And this show kind of nurtured and encouraged that kind of over-analyze don't you think? So using it as a defense falls on deaf ears abit.

[UnSub]

There has always been an element of misdirection on the show.

Misdirection implies that the truth was there if you only looked closely enough or weren't distracted by the things that were waved in front of you. Viewers weren't misdirected in "Lost" so much as buried in possibly important plot thread after possibly important plot thread until pretty much anything could be justified.

"Lost" had a great start. But every new bit lumped in more new characters that got some time in the sun and the whole show went on too long. People complain about the unsatisfactory ending to "The Prisoner" (original) but that was a fairly tight two seasons.

[Lucas]

Actually, yes, at the beginning of LAX, we are led to believe that it worked, but once we see some of the characters on present-day Island, we immediately notice that something is quite amiss.

One of the mantras of S5, also explicated by an episode title, was "Whatever Happened, happened", and infact the detonation of the Hydrogen Bomb, in the end, is the infamous incident Chang talks about in the Orientation video (S2).

From a sci-fi point of view, the nuclear bomb acted as a huge "slingshot" for some of the Losties, shooting them in the future, because of the interaction with the pocket of magnetic energy: basically, an uncontrolled use of it (as opposed to the controlled use when operating the underground Wheel).

Even if it's not, you can still view the Island as a symbolic Purgatory. After all, at the end of the show, Christian says that it was the most important place Jack visited on his Journey, and where he met the most significant people, a place where, after alll, he sustained the most difficult trials.

[March]

You are just an enabler.  There's therapy for that, you know.   

[Lucas]

You are just an enabler.  There's therapy for that, you know.   

Don't worry. Jacob loves you too. 

[Teleku]

Yeah, pretty much agree with March.  Biggest problem with this last season (or few, really) is that it was pretty obvious they kept re-writing the entire plot the whole way through.  There were so many obvious started then abandoned plot path's.  Much like the last season of BSG.  I'm still baffled how they struggled to write out the final half the way they did when they knew the exact date the show was going to end over 3 years in advance.

I never listened to the podcasts.  Are they like the episode commentary podcast that Moore did for BSG?  There was a lot of interesting insight in those, because he would talk about all the different plot points they had written or discussed before settling on what actually happened that episode.  Was interesting to hear him talk about the plot arc's that could have been, and plot threads that were started and abandoned.  They even put up podcasts from some of the writing summits, where they brainstormed ideas for the next season.

Did they do anything like that for lost?  With discussion of the writing process and changes they made?  Would be interesting to hear.

[Draegan]

Apparently this is from one of the writers on Lost.  I think it was originally posted on Lostpedia or whatever that site is.



---

I'm still calling bullshit though.

[Mrbloodworth]

The show peaked at the hatch.

[Samwise]

The show peaked at the hatch.

I think I have to agree there.  Dharma was a much better mystery than Jacob.

[HaemishM]

I like that writers explanation. I never much thought about Jacob being the one to bring the Dharma initiative in.

[Draegan]

The whole Lost story reminds me of FFXIII's story.  It was confusing as shit and you need to bring in other source material to explain it for you just to make some sort of vague sense.

[Samwise]

I like that writers explanation. I never much thought about Jacob being the one to bring the Dharma initiative in.

I don't entirely buy that explanation, since Dharma was essentially at war with the Others.  If Jacob brought Dharma in, I would think he would have done it through Richard, and Richard (and therefore the Others) would have some sort of friendly relationship with Dharma as a result.

There also hasn't been any explanation of how exactly Smokey "tricked" Ben and the Others into wiping out Dharma.  I mean, Jacob recruited Richard precisely so that he'd be able to have a voice among humanity and counter Smokey's tricks.  Shouldn't he have spoken up and said "hey, Jacob actually said you should NOT do evil things"?

[March]

Apparently this is from one of the writers on Lost.  I think it was originally posted on Lostpedia or whatever that site is.



---

I'm still calling bullshit though.

C-grade writers.  QED.

[Samwise]

Also, the "Smokey was using the Others to try to kill the candidates" is complete bullshit.  The Others could have killed all of the "Lostaways" at any time.  They even had pretty much all of them held captive at one point or another.  If they were taking marching orders from Smokey and there was nothing in the rules stopping them from killing the candidates, all the candidates would have died halfway through Season 1.

(edit) The more I try to figure out what the fuck the Others' motivation was at any point in time the less satisfying it all gets.  That was one of the big mysteries I was hoping would get resolved in the last season, and if anything everything they did makes LESS sense in retrospect.  Bah.

[Teleku]

Yeah, its obvious they originally intended completely different things for the others and the Dharma initiative, and now are trying to shoehorn it all into the Jacob thing which came much later.

Still, I appreciate the writers explanations (even if a lot of it is retcon).  Helps be enjoy the final better.  I do think its very cool that what we saw was the original ending, if they aren't bullshitting.  I'm curious if they had originally intended for the island itself to be purgatory when they originally wrote it, and then decided to do the flash sideways after deciding to make the Island real. 

Can you link the original post of that?  Got any other good links from writers?  Again, I'm interested in seeing them talk about the progression of the story from behind the scenes.

[KallDrexx]

...  I do think its very cool that what we saw was the original ending, if they aren't bullshitting.

They probably aren't bullshitting.  Look at where they say the original ending starts.  They literally could have applied that ending no matter what the show went like. 

[Teleku]

Yeah, exactly.  Which is why I wonder if the island itself was originally suppose to be purgatory, as everybody originally hypothesized.

[Samwise]

Yeah, exactly.  Which is why I wonder if the island itself was originally suppose to be purgatory, as everybody originally hypothesized.

A bunch of people crash landing at the foot of something resembling Mount Purgatory from the Divine Comedy and not knowing what the fuck was going on until they eventually finished climbing to the top and saw Paradise could make for a pretty cool show, actually.

[Tarami]

C-grade writers.  QED.

But A-grade dungeon mastering catherding.

[HaemishM]

I like that writers explanation. I never much thought about Jacob being the one to bring the Dharma initiative in.

I don't entirely buy that explanation, since Dharma was essentially at war with the Others.  If Jacob brought Dharma in, I would think he would have done it through Richard, and Richard (and therefore the Others) would have some sort of friendly relationship with Dharma as a result.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind there seems to be a time where Jacob just disappeared from the island - he was supposedly living in the cabin that Ben kept coming to, but Jacob wasn't there. Ben never saw him there. Ben was led to the Others by the Smoke Monster masquerading as his dead mother. Richard brought Ben to the temple where he was revived after being shot. Dogan must have been in the temple at the time the Dharma massacre took place, and I can reasonably assume that Dogan probably ordered the massacre after realizing that Dharma had succumbed to the corruption. Was the Dharma Initiative sent to the island by Widmore? If so, his expulsion from the Others would have put their backs up about the Dharma people in the first place.

There also hasn't been any explanation of how exactly Smokey "tricked" Ben and the Others into wiping out Dharma.  I mean, Jacob recruited Richard precisely so that he'd be able to have a voice among humanity and counter Smokey's tricks.  Shouldn't he have spoken up and said "hey, Jacob actually said you should NOT do evil things"?

Richard wasn't the leader of the Others and was often working FOR the leader, who supposedly took orders from Jacob (though in Ben's case, we know it wasn't Jacob but Smokey). And Jacob didn't have rules against killing people - hell, he often did very bad things in the quest to get someone to kill MIB for real.

[Arthur_Parker]

The Jack waking and Jack dying scenes in the same location they maybe had written, I'm sorry but the rest of it was random shit that seemed like a good idea at the time.  Mostly enjoyable shit, I lost a lot of interest after the hatch season, but still complete random shit.  There's whole episodes that don't make any kind of sense now, Adam and Eve in the cave, Jack reckoned they had been there about 50 years based on their clothes, turns out 2000 years.

I don't have a problem with anyone saying the show was good but there's a bloody good reason the head writers won't be answering specific questions about the plot any time soon.  I'm not interested enough to listen to pod casts or whatever, but thinking back to the Polar bear and the comic, I'm pretty sure that the whole Dharma Initiative was invented just to transport Polar bears to a tropical island.  Given that another possible answer was that the Polar bear was there because Walt imagined it into existence, it sure seems odd that in the final season magic happens because of what people believe.  Dharma Initiative was cool and all but seems to me that some people are twisting themselves in knots trying to explain all this nonsense.

[Paelos]

10 years from now, after they've made their millions or whatever and people have stopped caring, I want one of the writers to just admit the truth we all know.

They were flying by the seat of their pants, and the show became something they never intended by the time it ended.

[Ironwood]

I didn't mind it.

[AcidCat]

They were flying by the seat of their pants, and the show became something they never intended by the time it ended.

Honestly it doesn't even matter to me if most of it was improv. It sure was entertaining.


Oh, and "the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it." is obviously bullshit because Desmond, Penny, and Juliet were also in the church.