Lost [FINALE SPOILERS PAGE 25 ONWARDS]

[Triforcer]

How does Ben get to go to heaven?  If Eko doesn't get in for massacring random African villagers, how does Ben get in after HIS youthful massacre?  Heaven can't be that racist, can it?   

[Trippy]

I changed the title cause I hate using spoiler tags in discussions.

[Draegan]

There are a ton of inconsistencies and un-answered questions that I don't want to even begin thinking about.  The whole Black Smoke = Man In Black was terrible.  It never made sense.

How about how in seasons 1-5 you got a sense of how large the island was and how hard travel was.  Then in season 6 they ran laps around the place in a single day.

How about the whole WAAAAAAALT story line they just chopped off?

How did we go for Losties vs. Others to some other Others in a Temple?  Where were all these factions before?

Why is there a cabin?  I don't get that in context of the Jacob vs. MiB relationship that we learned about this season.

Why can't the smoke monster cross the ashes?

In the first episode the black smoke was ripping down trees.  Why? 

You have this interesting pseudo scienece with Hawkings and the Lampost and all the other Dharma shit.  In the end it means nothing.

Why was the MiB pretending to be Walt?  Just to kill Boone's sister?

God damn there are tons of stuff that were pretty big events in the show and they have so many holes in them.  During the time-skipping thing, who was shooting at the Losties in the canoe?

Meh.  Most of Season 6 had zero connection with the first five years.  Zero.  Except maybe the characters.

[Modern Angel]

Ben didn't get into heaven, actually. He said he wasn't joining in the party in the church because he has to spend some more time in purgatory working through his sins.

I won't defend season six as a whole. It was pretty mediocre to terrible (fuck you Kate episode, fuck you horrible Jacob/Smoke Monster episode) as a whole.

[Furiously]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the nuke did.

[Abagadro]

Put them back in present day.  That's it. Except there was never really an explanation for how/why they were transported to 1977 anyways so the whole exercise was pointless other than creating a time paradox (never mentioned) with Ben and killing Juliet.

[Samwise]

Sideways Hawking? Because she was dead, just like Jack's dad. Other Hawking? Because she was an Other, an original inhabitant of the island.

Ben was Chief Other, and he didn't know shit.  Neither did Richard, it seemed.  And they both actually lived on the island.  Compare that to Hawking's apparent omniscience, which she by all appearances gained after she left the island.  Also, her big island-finding gadget, which was never explained.

The Valenzetti equation?

Okay, fair enough.  New question -- why did Jacob's numbering scheme for candidates happen to make the last six candidates match the coefficients of the Valenzetti equation?  They spent so much time waving those numbers at us, I wanted some explanation of why they seem to be behind everything.  Even if it was something stupid like "that's God's cel phone number and it reverberates throughout all of reality whenever He gets a text".

That was Jacob's "rule" not the mother's.

Okay, new question.  Why the fuck did Smokey have to follow Jacob's rules?  If Jacob had the power to define arbitrary rules affecting Smokey, couldn't he have made a rule like "Smokey has to fucking sit in a corner for the rest of eternity"?

The smoke monster was only that way because he was exposed to the light through an act of sin (murder). Jack sacrificed himself to keep the light alive, thus there was no evil to latch onto.

Jacob's mother applied no such caveats when Jacob asked what would happen if he went into the light.  She made it very clear that touching the light means fate worse than death.  Jack touched the light and... died of his previous injuries, apparently.  Desmond gets a pass because he's magic, but Jack should have suffered whatever fate Jacob's mother warned him against, which was apparently becoming an evil smoke monster.

Points about certain people having to wait in various levels of purgatory are well made.  I'll buy those.

[Soln]

Good points all, but I am kind of glad it didn't end with "ALIENS ZOMG!!" or some similar materialism.  I really thought they would end up not explaining everything, but that they would give an origin story that would bork any further mystery (explicitly explained or not).  So I'm not wholly disappointed.  It was "OK".  Wouldn't watch again though.

[Soln]

Oh yeah.  WTF is up with Ricardus on a jet heading to where?  LA?  To do what?  Open a spa?  He was a big mystery for so long. That ending for him seemed a little 

[Paelos]

Ben didn't get into heaven, actually. He said he wasn't joining in the party in the church because he has to spend some more time in purgatory working through his sins.

I won't defend season six as a whole. It was pretty mediocre to terrible (fuck you Kate episode, fuck you horrible Jacob/Smoke Monster episode) as a whole.

I can't defend season six or season three. If you took both of them out, and simply wrapped it up with one or two extra episodes on what was season 5, I'm probably a happy camper.

For those of you who don't remember, season three was the never-ending 23 episode slog which was broken up in two parts (3 months apart in airing), that started with everyone imprisoned by the Others, and ended much later with Charlie dead and "Not Penny's boat." That season also introduced two of the most hated characters in the show (Nikki and Paulo), they killed Eko (bastards), and we see how Ben ices Dharma. Most of it was boring, boring shit and also set the record for a low point in viewership throughout the series.

[Samwise]

Oh yeah.  WTF is up with Ricardus on a jet heading to where?  LA?  To do what?  Open a spa?  He was a big mystery for so long. That ending for him seemed a little 

Richard himself was .  Any mystery he had was dead when we got his rather boring origin story.  I assume he went to go live a boring normal life.

[Abagadro]

I believe Eloise had Farraday's "notebook from the future" from whe she shot him in 1977 so she had a lot of info from there.

[Draegan]

When Desmond was flashing through weird realities and bought an engagement ring from Eloise... what was that all about?

How is she the master of everything?

Fuck.  Someone needs to create a Lovecraft type of show with some cool mysteries and shit.

[Evil Elvis]

Half the season spent showing me how happy Jack is with imaginary-make-believe-son in purgatory, and not one Walt answer?  Nothing on the women dying during childbirth?  Nothing about the cabin and the ring of ash?  Cocksuckers.

But what really gets me is that they knew full well they weren't going to answer any questions, and these bastards decided to double-down and bring up a dozen new questions this season they knew they wouldn't explain.

[Teleku]

Ok, here's my problem.  Lost was a character show, that is for sure.  But it was also a mystery show.  It was an amazing show because it combined the two awesomely.  These characters in a cop show wouldn't be nearly as interesting, just as a mysterious island show wouldn't have been that good without the amazing characters and back story.  I've felt they sort of fucked both sides over, however, which is why I'm let down.

Ever since season 4'ish, they stopped really caring about the characters.  They kept changing and going back and forth with their actions with no real consistency.  In short, the writers just had them be slaves to the plot, and wrote them into doing what ever it was the plot needed done.  I still felt and cared for the characters, but the whole deep character aspect of the show was pretty much done for me the last few years.  Nothing about them or their actions was very compelling anymore.  Certainly not like it was in the first 2 seasons.  So going forward, all I really had left to keep me watching the show was the island mystery plot.

That was enough to keep me going since the last 2 seasons had plenty of fun action and twists, with a steady stream of minor secret reveals to keep me interested.  Then this season came.  They introduced all sorts of new things, that in the end, were never explained at all (see, all the temple shit).  They didn't explain jack shit really.  It became very obvious how lazy and bad the writing was all along with the plot.  Jacobs actions completely contradict each other season to season, and frankly, almost episode to episode at some points.  There was almost no sense or relevance to anything that happened.  The plot holes are massive.  No explanations were given about anything (seriously, nothing at all about the fucking hatch that was so important guys?).  The way things worked out, every characters actions during the whole show were completely irrelevant.  People died and sacrificed for absolutely nothing.

So they basically fucked over all mystery storyline stuff as well.  I lost my characters and my mystery, which is why I'm pretty upset with how the whole end worked out.  I think the only bright spot was the very end, when they all realized that the sideways world was purgatory(or whatever), and were having a happy reunion.  It was a nice way of taking the sting away from, what we now see, was the COMPLETELY POINTLESS KILLING of characters we loved over the years.  I liked that they did all get a happy ending, because I to cared about the characters.  But the very end was the only bright spot on the whole thing, and I think the series as a whole is deeply marred.

Really would have been best if they had just stopped the series at season 2 or 3, went with "the island is purgatory" theory, and having everybody eventually "move on" in some touching way.

[AcidCat]

they killed Eko (bastards)

They killed Mr. Eko because the actor wanted out. On a similar note, they wanted him back for a scene in the finale, but he demanded like five times what they were willing to pay.

They don't have total creative control over everything just because of these kind of real world issues - originally they had big plans for Eko. Not like an author who can control whatever happens in his book.

[Lucas]

Here's my take:

Both authors always said how much they love Star Wars, the symbolism of the Hero's Journey of Anakyn (if it was portrayed well it's another story) and so on.

In the initial script of the pilot, when Jack appears for the first time, they describe him as the "Hero" of our story.


- LOST is basically another modern re-interpretation of the Hero's Journey, in this case of Jack Shephard.

The objective of this journey, is finally to "let it go" of whatever happened before.

During the Journey, the Hero find himself in various situations, adventures (The Island) and he meets lots of characters (the other ones we loved and hated) which will help him gain enough consciousness so he can finally move on.

Of course a lot of people are not satisfied with the lack of answers, or lack of coverage of other aspects of the show.
This is where the Authors took the more risky and corageous step, because this is not "life", this is just a TV Show, and from a TV show, when it poses questions, you expect straightforward answers, or at least LOTS of tools to answer them yourself.

But instead, think about this: during our life, lots of stuff happens. There are some key moments, and other we will barely remember when we look back.

This is why the most important aspect of LOST, at least in what I think is the interpretation of the Authors, is the Hero's Journey of Jack Shephard (and yes, even of the other characters), and not the Dharma supplies coming down from the Sky, or MIB name, or whatever. It's all about the growth of our Hero, and the trials he has to undertake. All the rest is a stage.

And yes, in no way that means it should please everyone, but the Authors had enough courage to build the show specifically around that concept.

[Paelos]

Here's my take:

Both authors always said how much they love Star Wars, the symbolism of the Hero's Journey of Anakyn (if it was portrayed well it's another story) and so on.

In the initial script of the pilot, when Jack appears for the first time, they describe him as the "Hero" of our story.


- LOST is basically another modern re-interpretation of the Hero's Journey, in this case of Jack Shephard.

The objective of this journey, is finally to "let it go" of whatever happened before.

During the Journey, the Hero find himself in various situations, adventures (The Island) and he meets lots of characters (the other ones we loved and hated) which will help him gain enough consciousness so he can finally move on.

Of course a lot of people are not satisfied with the lack of answers, or lack of coverage of other aspects of the show.
This is where the Authors took the more risky and corageous step, because this is not "life", this is just a TV Show, and from a TV show, when it poses questions, you expect straightforward answers, or at least LOTS of tools to answer them yourself.

But instead, think about this: during our life, lots of stuff happens. There are some key moments, and other we will barely remember when we look back.

This is why the most important aspect of LOST, at least in what I think is the interpretation of the Authors, is the Hero's Journey of Jack Shephard (and yes, even of the other characters), and not the Dharma supplies coming down from the Sky, or MIB name, or whatever. It's all about the growth of our Hero, and the trials he has to undertake. All the rest is a stage.

And yes, in no way that means it should please everyone, but the Authors had enough courage to build the show specifically around that concept.

You sir, are drinking the sand. What the authors did was for the sole purpose of prolonging a concept that had no legs, and forcing in random elements to keep the audience just engaged enough that they would be willing to limp across the finish line.

If you are looking for deeper meaning, goals, or artistic licenses here, you are looking in the wrong place. The writers were put on notice after season 3 when the fans got tired of their drawn out bullshit. The studio cracked down on them to pick up the pace, so instead of just ending it, they added two more seasons of totally whacky shit that had nothing to do with what was going on.

Also, Jack is a pretty shitty hero.

[Lucas]

You sir, are drinking the sand. What the authors did was for the sole purpose of prolonging a concept that had no legs, and forcing in random elements to keep the audience just engaged enough that they would be willing to limp across the finish line.

If you are looking for deeper meaning, goals, or artistic licenses here, you are looking in the wrong place. The writers were put on notice after season 3 when the fans got tired of their drawn out bullshit. The studio cracked down on them to pick up the pace, so instead of just ending it, they added two more seasons of totally whacky shit that had nothing to do with what was going on.

Also, Jack is a pretty shitty hero.

I totally disagree with everything you just wrote, but hey, that's fine.

Jack is just a flawed hero, a flawed person who at the end of the series just finished walking a personal path of growth.

[Draegan]

Lucas I think you're giving the shitty writers of this show wwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too much credit.

[Teleku]

You've got it backwards Paelos.  The it was the shows creators who negotiated the ABC execs into setting an end date.  The problems with season 3 came from the fact that there was no end in sight for the show, and so they couldn't reveal too much or advance to plot too far.  By getting the execs to set an end date, then they could control the flow.  The executives just wanted it to run it endlessly until it didn't make anymore money and then cancel it, like every other normal television show.

Lucas, are you really saying it was courageous to make a show about "the hero's journey", when that's what just about every single adventure show ever made is based around?

[Lucas]

Hehe, ok, look: I understand you can also look it from a more cynical (more realistic? yeah, maybe) point of view, and that's Paleos approach, for example (if I understood well). I just decided to "play along", for now pretending they actually tried to give us something more deep than your usual shitty procedural medic or crime :P

And well, at the beginning of my post, Teleku, I also said it was "another modern re-interpretation" of the hero's journey :).

It was "courageous" because they totally haven't tried to please everyone and they decided to send a "final message" about the show that, while open to interpretation, is very focused (and IMO, that's NOT a so called "cop-out"): not about the island mythology, or several other aspect of the show (they could have tried to cover all of them at once, but I'm not sure about a successful outcome :P), but about the Characters, and infact, while in the end is the Journey of Jack Shephard (after all, the first and last scene is centered around him), in reality it is also the Journey of Claire, Locke, Ben and all the others, so I stand corrected on that.

Like Christian Shephard say, in the end they all needed each other to move on, to end that personal path of growth (again, through a series of tasks which mostly happened on the Island) that will shoot them in whatever comes next :).

[March]

I'm not buying the "It's a character drama" bullshit.

If they wanted to write a character drama, they could have done so: Plane crashes on deserted island; survivors must form a community to stay alive; each character is presented with the opportunity to start anew, yet must confront old demons... how will they react?  How will they grow? What will the community look like? Factions? Peace? War? Love? Happiness? Rescue? Home? Everything a writer could possibly want to explore the emotional psyche of dozens of characters - complete with flashbacks to the old life and challenges in the new.

In fact, this sort of tale is not new: Swiss Family Robinson, Lord of the Flies, Robinson Crusoe, (heh, even Lost in Space... all the great shipwreck stories require a Robinson, it appears) etc.  It is a perfectly compelling setting for whatever Character development/sociological experiment you want to explore.

They did not do that.  They made a mystery in which the Island _was_ a character.  The Island made them do things.  The Island had mysterious powers.  The Island had secrets.  The Island was a fuck-ton more interesting than that pathetic doctor with pretend daddy issues who had to die for the show to end.

So, even with all the mewling about the meaningful character focus, you cannot call this a "good" ending because they didn't provide denouement for a (the?) main character: The Island.

Nobody says that you have to have polar bears, smoke monsters, resurrection (multiple times), miraculous healing, immortality and time travel to write a compelling character drama - but if you do... then finish the job.

p.s. Anyone else notice that the Glowy Life Well was of human construction?  Who carved that?  Why didn't they become smoke monsters? (Really, for all the importance that the Smoke monster had - can you think of anything less coherently explained?)  How did they discover the Glowy place?  What did they think it was, and why build a pool for the water?  Is the water in the Glowy pool connected to the Water in the Temple?  Why did it not heal Jack when it flowed over him?  Even in the finale they cannot help but add new mysteries because they really didn't have any answers for which the mysteries were the set-up.

[Merusk]

Here's an easy way around the real-world issues that kept 'the black people'     out of Lostgatory.

Eko wasn't there because the island wasn't the most important part of his life, just where it ended.  He didn't do anything on the island but act badass.  His story showed that if he's anywhere, he's in a purgatory trying to resolve the sins committed as a fake priest.

Michael, as mentioned, has a lot of bad ju-ju to still burn off and unresolved issues.  I'd also argue the island wasn't the most central/ important part of his life it was his relationship with his son.  He's off somewhere trying to make amends for that. The island on my made them worse because it took him away from his son. It's the last group of folks he'd want to see after death.

The complaints I'm seeing are from those who want answers.  Sometimes you just don't get answers.  Were they important in the end? Nope.  Life's a bitch not all questions get answers.  I'm ok with that and wish more shows did it in the same way I wish more movies would let the hero fail.

[Lucas]

I'm not buying the "It's a character drama" bullshit.

If they wanted to write a character drama, they could have done so: Plane crashes on deserted island; survivors must form a community to stay alive; each character is presented with the opportunity to start anew, yet must confront old demons... how will they react?  How will they grow? What will the community look like? Factions? Peace? War? Love? Happiness? Rescue? Home? Everything a writer could possibly want to explore the emotional psyche of dozens of characters - complete with flashbacks to the old life and challenges in the new.

March, but you just wrote a perfect description of Lost Season One 

Then, they decided to "push the envelope" by exploring other storytelling devices, themes etc. I think the debate will rage for A LOT of time (months and years), if they succeeded or not in their attempt :).

And yes, like Merusk wrote, "life's a bitch".

Appropriately, the Island was really the "Heart" of the Journey of our Characters. And again, in the following days, months and years, people will be on different sides, neither of which, IMO, is wrong.

Let me see, maybe I'm picking a wrong example, but imagine LOST really as a fairy tale story:

- One approach is, while you granny narrates it, "why this character did so and so"? Where did they go? What was that strange thing in the forest? Then you also try to grasp the final message the author put in the book, but you STILL want to know the details, because well, you're just like that as a person, no problem.

- Another is just trying to grasp that final message: yes, you understand more details could have been given, but hey, everything that was narrated during the tale, in the end, just serve that final message the author wanted to communicate with his book.

[Paelos]

You've got it backwards Paelos.  The it was the shows creators who negotiated the ABC execs into setting an end date.  The problems with season 3 came from the fact that there was no end in sight for the show, and so they couldn't reveal too much or advance to plot too far.  By getting the execs to set an end date, then they could control the flow.  The executives just wanted it to run it endlessly until it didn't make anymore money and then cancel it, like every other normal television show.

No matter who brought about the change, execs or writers, I can't honestly believe the plan from go was:

First 3 Seasons:
Crash
Here There Be Monsters!
Hatch
Numbers
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalt!
Dharma Initiative
Others...
The Final Countdown
Prison Island
Henry Gale is Benjamin Linus
Hold Still While I Gas You
How the Other Half Lives
Not Penny's Boat

Start Season 4:
Fucking Flash Forwards
Constant Time Travel?
On the Good Ship Lollipop with Michael
Mercs Kill Punky Brewster
Giant Wheels and Disappearing Islands
Let's do the Time Warp Again, and Again, and Again
Random Hydrogen Bomb
Zombie Locke
Back to the 70s
Everyone has Daddy Issues
I See Dead People
Here's Jacob, Oh wait nevermind he's dead
Sideways, Candidates, and Lighthouses, oh my!
Who's the bigger dick? Smokey or Jacob?
Go into the Light, maybe.

On the one hand, there's a sort of progression up to Season Three suggesting a showdown of some kind between all the warring factions involved with the island. Then, the show goes off the fucking rails.

[Tarami]

March, but you just wrote a perfect description of Lost Season One  

Season one is a character drama? Season one (in like the first six god-damn episodes) was the one that introduced the smoke monsters, Locke magically being able to walk again, the polar bears, the hatches and the mysterious sequences of numbers in the first place, things that went unexplained for the entire run. (Wait, maybe the polar bear was explained. Survivor from another crash or something? Yes, apparently polar bears survive on tropical islands.) The only thing the characters did was being mortifyingly retarded from the second they crashed, just in order to advance the motley plot.

No, it was pretty obvious from the very beginning that they were going to go off-rails in a manner that would make David Lynch embarrassed.

[Lucas]

Yes, S1 introduced lots of mysteries but S1 also:

- dedicated one or two episodes to each character. Those episodes presented a certain situation that specific character (maybe with the help of others) had to face/solve.

After that, the storytelling brought us back in time (flashbacks) explaining in more detail the traits of that specific character, what tribulations he went through in the past that made him the character which is now in front of us on the island. Then, the story went on, with the character attempting to solve his personal trial, meanwhile growing as a person.

And that actually went on for 2 seasons and half, but meanwhile, other elements were introduced, like the Dharma Initiative.

[Ratman_tf]

I blame fucking nuBSG. The clever writer mantra now is "If you can't think up a decent ending for your series, throw some mystical feel good bullshit at them and hope that at least half the audience buys it."

 

[Paelos]

I blame the Sopranos for this nonsense as well. It's still the gold-standard for how to ruin a series with an ending.

[Draegan]

Lost was a heavily mystery driven plot line with a very interesting character building flashback mechanism.  It was both a character driven show and a plot driven show.  It didn't become a solely character driven show until the flash forwards, and finally Season 6.

[Teleku]

The complaints I'm seeing are from those who want answers.  Sometimes you just don't get answers.  Were they important in the end? Nope.  Life's a bitch not all questions get answers.  I'm ok with that and wish more shows did it in the same way I wish more movies would let the hero fail.

Yes, they were important in the end.  A large part of the show was seeking the answers.  I hate the "people shouldn't expect all the little twists and turns to get answered" response.  I'm not.  The problem is that they didn't explain ANYTHING.  They left all the main plot basically unanswered, and what explanations they did give were horrible and half ass.  Imagine if The Usual Suspects ended with the cops just sitting around going, "Damn, guess we'll never know what happened."  Or the end of Seven fading to black as the the delivery van drives up in the desert (its up to each viewer to determine what could have been in the box).

This whole approach is a very cliched ending to do.  Everybody is doing it lately because writing endings are hard (ask Neil Stephenson).  It's a lazy way out of a hard situation, pure and simple.  They just aren't good enough writers to write a full good story.

Again, I thought the very end was touching.  I'd just prefer they made it the main part of the main plot instead of some random thing that had nothing to do with anything.  Show should have ended in Season 3, with that scene at the end playing out except with everybody on the island.

[Quinton]

I still think one of their mistakes was trying to explain too much.  I don't think we really needed the jacob/mib backstory (especially when it just serves to show that they actually don't *know* why -- they're just doing what they're doing because of "mom"), nor did we necessarily need to see the source of the glowy light, etc.

The "Jacob and his friend have been on the island a long time and have this bet about the nature of humanity" backstory felt like enough to hang things around without trying to take it a step further somehow.  We spent 4-5 years leaning about these people and their motivations (through flashbacks and the on-island stories) and what they care about -- let them take sides in this conflict, let it play out, and some of them leave and some of them stay, and in the end, maybe we never learn if it *really* mattered (would unlocke leaving end the world? nobody actually knows).

I think I feel like they should have had a shift in season 5 or 6 away from expanding the layers upon layers of crazy happenings and events, turned things around and showed us what happened to all these characters we have followed.  I think the writers didn't know how to do this -- how to change the nature of the show so they could wrap it up without losing the audience, so they just kept going... and then "tied it up" with the last episode.

EDIT: The thing is, even tough S5/S6 were a mess, things like seeing our castaways try to make a go of it in DharmaVille in the 70s and a lot of the other steps along the way were great fun.  I really liked most of these characters.  I feel let down that the story didn't do more for them.

[Tebonas]

Yes, it was a copout. But given the mess they have written themself into, I liked it.

The Sideways reality being Purgatory worked on an emotional level, they could give everybody a happy reunion without making any of the sacrifices moot. Despite Ben not deserving such a happy ending I liked the Hurley/Ben guardian combo. As suspected, the one true couple were Rose and Bernard, and they were the smart ones as well realizing one should evade all those wackos so that you don't die in a redshirt incident.

From the Lore perspective on the other hand this was a total mess. They forgot things, didn't answer other things, and made new mysteries up on the spot. That was totally annoying. Starting from the Walt thing (wasn't there supposed to be a already filmed scene between Walt and Locke?), many things were a waste of time in retrospect. Too many to list here, I suspect.

[UnSub]

I always like going back and reading the first few pages of these threads. It reminded me that the writers / creators were made statements that the Island wasn't Purgatory.