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Topic: Game of Thrones [SPOILERS] (Read 1108370 times)
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Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15157
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I wouldn't count on it in other respects. But I basically assume that Martin's characters aren't going to be ping-ponging up and down Westeros in the middle of winter. I mean, last we left off, Stannis' forces are possibly frozen to death in between Castle Black and Winterfell because it's so difficult to travel even that distance with winter having arrived. I would basically assume that Arya, Sansa, etc., are only making one to two more major geographical movements in the story.
I think basically the showrunners got an outline of known moments from Martin that looks something like:
Cersei blows up Sept of Baelor with wildfire, High Sparrow and Tarlys killed. Daenerys meets with Tyrion, he becomes her Hand, gets Dothraki to follow her, gets Victarion's ships, sails forces to Westeros. Arya confronts Faceless Men, is allowed to leave to return home. (I really assume Martin has something better in mind than what happened in show) Starks regather at Winterfell. Jon Snow and His Merry Band go North of the Wall on desperate mission, something something happens
Etc. So they know what the 'big moments' are but not how to get the characters to them in the right order in a narratively coherent way. So far I think they're doing a pretty crap job of moving the pieces around, though. It's almost like a slideshow of plot points and reunion moments rather than a story.
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Riggswolfe
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Posts: 8024
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I wouldn't count on it in other respects. But I basically assume that Martin's characters aren't going to be ping-ponging up and down Westeros in the middle of winter. I mean, last we left off, Stannis' forces are possibly frozen to death in between Castle Black and Winterfell because it's so difficult to travel even that distance with winter having arrived. I would basically assume that Arya, Sansa, etc., are only making one to two more major geographical movements in the story.
I think basically the showrunners got an outline of known moments from Martin that looks something like:
Cersei blows up Sept of Baelor with wildfire, High Sparrow and Tarlys killed. Daenerys meets with Tyrion, he becomes her Hand, gets Dothraki to follow her, gets Victarion's ships, sails forces to Westeros. Arya confronts Faceless Men, is allowed to leave to return home. (I really assume Martin has something better in mind than what happened in show) Starks regather at Winterfell. Jon Snow and His Merry Band go North of the Wall on desperate mission, something something happens
Etc. So they know what the 'big moments' are but not how to get the characters to them in the right order in a narratively coherent way. So far I think they're doing a pretty crap job of moving the pieces around, though. It's almost like a slideshow of plot points and reunion moments rather than a story.
It may be but I am firmly convinced this is the only way we'll ever see how the story ends. Like Haemish and others I don't think Martin will finish the books. Best case scenario he gets the next book out and someone else is brought in to finish it using his story notes after he chokes to death on a bowl of pasta.
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"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Teleku
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Posts: 10510
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Brandon Sanderson, obviously.
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"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants. He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor." -Stephen Colbert
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Rendakor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10131
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So we really have 4 more books to go...
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"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
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Chimpy
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Posts: 10618
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Brandon Sanderson, obviously.
Sanderson wouldn't be a good fit. Unlike with Jordan where their styles are similar, Martin's incest and murder obsessed writing is much different than Sanderson's.
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'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
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Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15157
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I think it's more that he writes relatively quickly and professionally and he understands the genre. I'm pretty sure he could write a fairly good pastiche of Martin if he had Martin's notes and plot outlines, in whatever state they're in.
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Speedy Cerviche
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Posts: 2783
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But I basically assume that Martin's characters aren't going to be ping-ponging up and down Westeros in the middle of winter. I mean, last we left off, Stannis' forces are possibly frozen to death in between Castle Black and Winterfell because it's so difficult to travel even that distance with winter having arrived.
I think that was just a blizzard, pretty mean one but not a permanent state of weather for early winter.
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Khaldun
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Posts: 15157
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Really? For a winter that has an army of supernatural ice zombies fully mobilized behind it? I mean, yeah, I grant that in The Winds of Winter, if it's ever published, people are not going to freeze solid the second they step outside, or the books are kind of over right there. (That would be a good out for Martin: he just publishes a ten-page pamphlet of characters freezing to death. The End.) But I'm pretty sure that north of the Riverlands, it's never going to be "ride along like it's a pleasant wintry evening" for years--Martin seems pretty serious about his environmental constraints.
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Tale
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sıɥʇ ǝʞıן sʞןɐʇ
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As a writer of shorter work, I know that if I tell someone the story before I write it, I will never write it. The telling is in the writing. If you've told even one person, it's done.
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Speedy Cerviche
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Posts: 2783
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Really? For a winter that has an army of supernatural ice zombies fully mobilized behind it? I mean, yeah, I grant that in The Winds of Winter, if it's ever published, people are not going to freeze solid the second they step outside, or the books are kind of over right there. (That would be a good out for Martin: he just publishes a ten-page pamphlet of characters freezing to death. The End.) But I'm pretty sure that north of the Riverlands, it's never going to be "ride along like it's a pleasant wintry evening" for years--Martin seems pretty serious about his environmental constraints.
Well the book described winters that lasted decades, it's impossible any human survived if every day was -50c with 20cm of snow. Maybe at the peak it could be like that but we're just at the onset. Then again, SUPER MAGIC, so real world and even previous westeros winters are not really relevant to current story.
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satael
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Posts: 2431
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My fear is that they will hire some hack who will just copy the tv-series in a rush to get the books published as fast as possible and do it so badly that the differences between the books and the tv-series will get mostly ignored (leading to plot-holes and inconsistent characters).
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MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!
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Anyone besides me thinking that Gendry is a contender for the Prince That Was Promised?
--Dave
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--Signature Unclear
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eldaec
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Posts: 11838
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I hope it is never definitively resolved, because I don't believe any answer will ever be as interesting as the question.
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"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson "Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
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Shannow
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Tormund was MVP of that episode. And I believe I called it:
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Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
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Ginaz
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Posts: 3534
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Tormund was MVP of that episode. And I believe I called it:
The entire plot for this season was leaked months ago. So far everything leaked has been correct.
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Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15157
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I've decided that winter in Westeros makes human beings unnaturally stupid. All of them.
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schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345
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Tormund was MVP of that episode. And I believe I called it:
Literally every thinking human knew there would be an ice dragon -_-
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Hoax
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Posts: 8110
l33t kiddie
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fanfic: the season has been decent, I'm enjoying it but in that hollow way where if I think about it too much afterwards I feel bad that they've cheapened everything. Reality is Martin will have just as huge an issue with everything Dorne related as the show did and he's got too much pride to just give up on sorting it out.
Its a shame if the grand prophecy army of the dead shit just didn't exist there would have been time to tell a really good story about the houses, politics and wars.
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A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation. -William Gibson
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Abagadro
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Possibly the only user with more posts in the Den than PC/Console Gaming.
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Now I have a dragon.
Ho Ho Ho!
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"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
-H.L. Mencken
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Teleku
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Posts: 10510
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fanfic: the season has been decent, I'm enjoying it but in that hollow way where if I think about it too much afterwards I feel bad that they've cheapened everything. Reality is Martin will have just as huge an issue with everything Dorne related as the show did and he's got too much pride to just give up on sorting it out.
Its a shame if the grand prophecy army of the dead shit just didn't exist there would have been time to tell a really good story about the houses, politics and wars.
Yeah, if the series had just stuck with Fantasy War of the Roses, would have been amazing. I really wish HBO, instead of trying to make 600 spin offs to GoT, would just make their own IP copying the same basic premise (fantasy war of the roses, without all the dragons and bullshit. Just back stabbing and a cast of 100 characters to root for/violently kill). Same way Bioware decided to make Mass Effect instead of trying to make a bunch of Star War's RPGs. Tormund was MVP of that episode. And I believe I called it:
Literally every thinking human knew there would be an ice dragon -_- So, best that I can tell, the only real thing that came about from the Red God sending this grand team he assembled up north is that it handed the Nights King an Ice Dragon. Sooo, Red God actually Night's King in disguise? Heh.
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"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants. He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor." -Stephen Colbert
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Zetor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3269
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To be fair, this Icecrown Citadel raid composition was terrible. 4 arms warriors, a fury warrior, a DPS DK, a priest and a mage? Yea, those clothies are as good as dead.
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Teleku
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Posts: 10510
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Come on, Beric has to count as a Paly at this point. Oh, and going back to what I had brought up earlier. The whole 'Quick, run and get help from 5,000 miles away Gendry!' thing was just
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"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants. He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor." -Stephen Colbert
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eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11838
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The problem with GoT as Fantasy War of the Roses is that noone involved in this project could write it.
GRRM demonstrably can't and D&D don't seem to be able to write anything with any depth without him.
But I agree. Fantasy war of the roses plus Arya & the Hound travelogue would be great.
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"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson "Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
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satael
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Posts: 2431
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So how much time was supposed to pass between them sending Gendry running to Eastwatch and Daenarys coming to their rescue?
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Lakov_Sanite
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Posts: 7590
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So how much time was supposed to pass between them sending Gendry running to Eastwatch and Daenarys coming to their rescue?
Some internet mathematicians have put the fastest time from gendry running to the dragons showing up at 5-6 days.
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~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
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Teleku
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Posts: 10510
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I'm not sure how they came up with that. If going by the actual book distance, it should have taken fucking months. Ravens don't fly that god damn fast in the book. If by what they showed in the episode, looks like they hung out just one night. I mean, the zombies were waiting for the water to freeze back over totally. Pretty sure the Nights King would have known, even without the Hound, that it doesn't take 5 days. The problem with GoT as Fantasy War of the Roses is that noone involved in this project could write it.
GRRM demonstrably can't and D&D don't seem to be able to write anything with any depth without him.
But I agree. Fantasy war of the roses plus Arya & the Hound travelogue would be great.
Yeah, agreed. Hopefully if they, or some other network, actually attempt such a thing, it would be with a different crew. Hell, with the amount of GoT generated tourism to various places used in the show, I'd imagine the EU would be willing to throw a lot of support at anybody looking to do something similar.
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"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants. He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor." -Stephen Colbert
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Khaldun
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Posts: 15157
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Yeah, I really wish in some ways that the zombie thing wasn't there.
Fantasy War of the Roses/Hundred Years' War might have the problem of the ending being as depressing as the rest of it, I suppose (Shakespeare was kissing up to the current ruler by trying to make it be 'the good guys won').
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satael
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Posts: 2431
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I wish there had been no dragons or zombies and the northern threat would have just been the coming winter and the wildlings (and later the northeners) that it pushes south. End the show with whoever wins sitting on the iron throne and watching snow start to fall over somewhat ruined King's Landing (with the sitter knowing that the winter is there to stay).
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Khaldun
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Posts: 15157
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Right--I mean, it could have been a good underlying theme (the vanity and folly of fighting wars to the finish in a world where the seasons leave no room for error). Or have a fantasy Reformation and the Black Plague in the background--make it clear that the "wheel is broken" simply because the lords of Westeros couldn't find a way to value the greater good. Have the winner of the game realize that they lost a deeper war than they knew they were fighting.
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I think basically the reason this season is pretty bad--in my view, the worst--is that servicing the plot requires the characters to be turned into idiots on a regular basis, without any dramatic attention to that. Even with Battle of the Bastards, the show was aware that Jon Snow was acting stupidly (less aware that Sansa arranging a rescue without telling him was also sort of stupid). But now, every episode requires almost all the characters to act stupidly in order for the preordained set piece to unfold. It just isn't much fun to watch.
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Tale
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sıɥʇ ǝʞıן sʞןɐʇ
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The whole fucking show - and books - BEGIN with the discovery of the white walkers. This is a story of humanity's self-obsession risking its entire future in the face of a far greater threat, perhaps all guided by good and evil gods, towards a final showdown between them.
If you want the Wars of the Roses, you need a different show. This was never it, should never be it!
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Rendakor
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Posts: 10131
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This season has certainly been a mixed bag for me. The set pieces are awesome; as a long time fantasy fan, it's great to see wyverns dragons burning shit to death and cool battles. The story, however, has just gotten ridiculous. There's no sense of time passing, and they've been mass-producing plot armor in a way that runs counter to the previous season's mentality (and the books) of "anyone can die at any time."
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"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
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Cheddar
I like pink
Posts: 4987
Noob Sauce
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I went from zero to second place in the league, yay!
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No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
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Khaldun
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Posts: 15157
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The White Walkers in the show and the books are sort of best as a thematic device rather than characters who have intentions of their own. E.g., as a kind of climate change parable, the "if you continue in your folly and cannot think about the bigger threats, you will pay an enormous price for your foolishness". Once it becomes "just kill Foozle with the magic sword and all will be well", that fizzles into a cheap reprise of "throw the Ring into Mount Doom".
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HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42628
the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring
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Bah, all your cynical motherfuckers just can't enjoy a goddamn thing. I'm loving this season.
The travel times are beyond ridiculous - deal with it. If they actually dealt with the travel times in any remotely realistic manner you'd complain about how slow it is and how padded out it is. And it would be. That was actually one of the complaints of first season - it took like 5 episodes to get from Winterfell to King's Landing. Was it realistic? Yes. Was it great storytelling - meh.
As for characters acting stupid, well yes. Jon is INCREDIBLY STUPID and always has been. "You know nothing, Jon Snow" is not just an annoying character catchphrase, it's literally his entire character. The fact that he's somehow the best leader for the North maybe shows why the North has been beholden to a Southern king for a while, because these snow humpers up here will literally follow any shithead who can bash his enemy's skull in (just like the Scots - HOOOOOO!!!!!) JK, Ironwood.
I mean, his plan sort of makes sense if you believe that the threat is so real and in your face that just seeing it will make you forget everything else and get on board the survival train. It was just foolhardy and doomed to failure because for some reason, he didn't get dragonglass or Valyrian weapons for every member of the party. That part was more stupid than anything else in it. Granted, he wouldn't have had one for the Hound or the Brotherhood because he didn't expect them to be there but Tormund should have had one.
Also, Tormund has the best fucking lines.
Great work, Jon. NOW THEY HAVE A DRAGON. You had ONE JOB. ONE JOB.
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Shannow
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3703
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What Haemish said.
One other thing that's bugging me, is Sophie Turner the worse actress on this show by far? Holy fuck I can't stand her whining.
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Someone liked something? Who the fuzzy fuck was this heretic? You don't come to this website and enjoy something. Fuck that. ~ The Walrus
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