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Author Topic: Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]  (Read 580263 times)
Tarami
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Reply #105 on: June 11, 2009, 07:26:11 PM

Not to be a sandy vagina, but could people please spoilerize things? I'm not yet finished with the books and I'd like to be able to come here to read about progress on the TV-series. Recent few posts haven't really spoiled anything, but just in case.

- I'm giving you this one for free.
- Nothing's free in the waterworld.
Sjofn
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Reply #106 on: June 11, 2009, 08:19:34 PM

Cersei didn't have Ned killed, she wanted to send him off to the Night's Watch. It was her little shit of a son that killed him.

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Merusk
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Reply #107 on: June 11, 2009, 09:30:46 PM

Daenerys is definitely despicable on at least 'some level'.

I don't see it at this point.  At the beginning when you still had her dealing with her brother, yes.  However, once she got married and started on her life's work she became so much of a better character I was happy she didn't die the horrible screaming bitch death her brother did, which I wasn't at the time.

But then I like Cat, too, and understand her character beyond "omg whiny non-whore shut up!" so obviously my judgment is flawed.  awesome, for real

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Triforcer
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Reply #108 on: June 11, 2009, 10:16:07 PM

Arya Stark cannot be considered "good," as I think its pretty clear she is a raging psychotic.  Sanya is vapid and easily manipulated.  /Agree with what has been said on Cersei and Catelyn. 

Daenerys is interesting.  I think at some level she is meant to be sympathetic, but at the end she is really no different than any other claimant:  a person with a massively inflated sense of self-worth who is willing to see hundreds of thousands of people die so she can sit on the fancy chair.  In fact, given her  situation, its even MORE selfish of her to seek the throne than for the others to do so:  can't she see the whole civil war would come back when she died?

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
gryeyes
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Reply #109 on: June 11, 2009, 11:32:48 PM

Nobody every used the qualifier of "good" more like not being completely appalling. Cersei is psychotic she will betray ANYONE at any time even her own family. Arya definitely a rage filled little murderer but she wouldn't betray her family. Wouldn't randomly kill someone for no reason. Goes out of her way to help people and is generally a kind person. And in the situations she has killed its been pretty fucking justified even the minstrel guy (betrayed the black,betrayed his friends). All of the characters are ambitious they are almost exclusively royals most of them having just recently lost their family and ancestral lands. Daenerys entire line was slaughtered, her family the rightful rulers. She also wants to be a good ruler wants to free the enslaved, and is aware of her own personal limitations so is putting off going for the crown until she believes she can rule. She also has the whole  thing going on.

None of the characters being archetypal good/evil is part of the appeal of the entire setting. And that is one of the reasons Cersei is so glaringly one dimensional. She is a wicked witch and to a lesser degree Cat. Mega overbearing mother fucking shit up as she plods along. Even Ned was an asshole in some respects.
lamaros
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Reply #110 on: June 12, 2009, 12:11:16 AM

But then I like Cat, too, and understand her character beyond "omg whiny non-whore shut up!" so obviously my judgment is flawed.  awesome, for real

 awesome, for real

Maybe you should try and get a job writing for the series, or better yet just write the last few books for GRRM. I'm sure he could use your omniscient guidance.

Everyone is meant to be empathetic on some level, if not then it's just bad writing, but that doesn't necessarily become sympathy. I think everyone reading the various character views is meant to gain some sort of understanding beyond psycho-child/bitch-mother/megalomaniac-whore/loner-hero/hero-in-exile and so forth. That doesn't mean they're all successful, that because someone doesn't 'like' the character they don't get the intention, or that the general character mould doesn't have some relevance.

Arya Stark cannot be considered "good," as I think its pretty clear she is a raging psychotic.

I'm looking forward to Rickon's chapter POVs. He seems to be growing up as the crazy wolf boy.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Sjofn
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Reply #111 on: June 12, 2009, 12:20:24 AM

Sansa is a good example of a character I absolutely could not fucking stand at the beginning that has just the slightest hints of one day being cool lurking in the last book.

Onion Knight guy seemed like a pretty good guy all around, thinking about it? Argh, I really don't want to go back and read the series again, it'll just make me pissed the next book isn't out yet.

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Murgos
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Reply #112 on: June 12, 2009, 12:35:09 PM

Pretty much none of the characters are all good just as pretty much none of the characters are all evil, 'cept maybe Gregor Clegane, but at least he was cool.  Even Tywin Lannister, an extremely ruthless and calculating a character there is he did have a few honorable points for example, he loved his family, and was a good protector to his people.

Even the 'best' characters have their points where they will act in a selfish and self-interested manner if the right button in their psyche gets pushed.

Heck, it's one of the main reasons I like the stories.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
Teleku
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Reply #113 on: June 12, 2009, 02:02:02 PM

How the hell can anybody consider Arya not good?  Or psycotic?  What has she done thats bad?  Everything I can think of she's done for the right reasons, even if they didn't turn out the way she hoped.  It's been awhile since I've read the books, but I actually can't think of anything.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
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Murgos
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Reply #114 on: June 12, 2009, 02:23:46 PM

How the hell can anybody consider Arya not good?  Or psycotic?  What has she done thats bad?  Everything I can think of she's done for the right reasons, even if they didn't turn out the way she hoped.  It's been awhile since I've read the books, but I actually can't think of anything.

Almost all her motivation is selfish?  The path she has gone down has nothing to do with helping other people and is entirely focused on revenge...

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
sidereal
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Reply #115 on: June 12, 2009, 05:07:38 PM

The question wasn't whether she was Mother Theresa, it's whether there were any female characters who weren't 'despicable', and Arya is entirely sympathetic.  She kills people, but that's kind of how this world works, and she has a moral sense and is an entirely decent person.  I think the Onion Knight is a good example of an equivalent non-female. . he has his own issues and doesn't live up to any high standards, but he makes an effort and could not reasonably considered 'despicable'.

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Ingmar
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Reply #116 on: June 12, 2009, 05:38:51 PM

Arya is

The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT.
Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
gryeyes
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Reply #117 on: June 12, 2009, 07:22:08 PM

What she will become has already been heavily foreshadowed.
Teleku
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Reply #118 on: June 13, 2009, 03:05:44 AM

How the hell can anybody consider Arya not good?  Or psycotic?  What has she done thats bad?  Everything I can think of she's done for the right reasons, even if they didn't turn out the way she hoped.  It's been awhile since I've read the books, but I actually can't think of anything.

Almost all her motivation is selfish?  The path she has gone down has nothing to do with helping other people and is entirely focused on revenge...
As far as I can remember, absolutely everybody she killed deserved it.  She's fought back against all those who turned on her family.  For a girl who had her very noble/good father/brothers by a bunch of bastards, I can't possibly think of anything better to do.  Letting it go would actually be worst.  If her actions where "selfish", then they were also good in that she was killing some flagrantly bad people.  Again, refresh me because I don't' remember everything, what are actions she did that are in any way bad?

Now, as mentioned, if her training makes her become something worst, then maybe not.  But frankly I'm hoping she becomes completely bad ass so she can return and kill even more evil assholes in the 7 kingdoms.

"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants.  He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor."
-Stephen Colbert
Murgos
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Reply #119 on: June 13, 2009, 08:05:08 AM

If you want to arbitrarily decide murdering people not in self defense is 'ok' because 'they needed killing' there really isn't much point to this conversation.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
sidereal
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Reply #120 on: June 13, 2009, 12:35:25 PM

Do you normally apply real-world 20th century ethical standards to fantasy novels?  That must be terrible for you.

Were you outraged by the horrific racism of Gandalf when he just assumed that Orks and goblins were evil, without actually trying to strike up a conversation and learn their true feelings?

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proudft
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Reply #121 on: June 13, 2009, 12:51:22 PM

One of the greatest things, to me, about this series is that it seems like every character has a fan SOMEWHERE.  Somewhere someone is saying Cersei is their favorite, I bet.

Hell, mine is probably Sandor Clegane.  You can say his issues with Gregor made him what he is, but in truth, I like him because he's a badass who doesn't take shit from the establishment.  He's got that Clint Eastwood grumpy gruff hardass thing going on.  Except he has his kryptonite weakness with fire.  Plus, you know he'll be wandering the kingdom like Caine in Kung Fu at some point.  Except without the dying in a closet part.  Also, add in he might one day head off to kill a giant zombie.  Ok, analogy fail.  But he's still my favorite.

Oh crap, I forgot about Hot Pie.  
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 12:55:00 PM by proudft »
Murgos
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Reply #122 on: June 14, 2009, 03:16:42 PM

Do you normally apply real-world 20th century ethical standards to fantasy novels?  That must be terrible for you.

Screw real life, show me in the books where it says it's okay for Arya to kill, or have killed, people she dislikes.

You know what?  If your point is that having people killed that picked on her makes her a saint than have fun with that.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 04:02:16 PM by Murgos »

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gryeyes
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Reply #123 on: June 14, 2009, 04:35:50 PM

Quote
You know what?  If your point is that having people killed that picked on her makes her a saint than have fun with that.

Why would his point be something he never said or even implied? The only person Arya has killed that was not in self defense or an active enemy of her house during a time of war was the minstrel who broke his oath to the Night Watch. Whose life is forfeit the instant he did so and can be "lawfully" killed by anyone. Trying to equivocate all "murder" as having the same moral weight is specious at best even in the 20th century. In a fantasy setting its a bit  swamp poop
jayfyve
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Reply #124 on: June 14, 2009, 05:40:44 PM


Almost all her motivation is selfish?  The path she has gone down has nothing to do with helping other people and is entirely focused on revenge...

I think in the books its clear she is still a child, so she is innocent. As soon as she is fully mature, she can be judged the same as everyone else.
Triforcer
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Reply #125 on: June 14, 2009, 09:06:02 PM

I don't think Arya is psychotic because she kiled the guards, etc. back in the Seven Kingdoms (the minstrel killing, although perhaps "legal" in the fictional context, was more iffy).  I just think everything we read about her (especially in the last book) implies she is surely but slowly going crazy.  Its hard to point to a specific passage that "proves" that, its just my feeling from the totality of how she reacts to the world. 

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
lamaros
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Reply #126 on: June 15, 2009, 08:09:41 AM

I think the intention was to show her

A: Growing up.
B: Changing under the influence of the faceless men.

She is meant to be caught in a crisis between her identity as Arya Stark, abandoned orphan, etc etc and and her new role as a servant of the faceless. Not sure she's meant to be seen as going crazy, but certainly having an identity crisis and a breakdown of some sort. The minstrel killing is the expression of these conflicts, of her ties to Winterfell (the series begins with the lord of winterfell killing a black brother who abandoned the watch, after all), her uncouth recent lifestyle (of killing a fair bit), and a growing sense of purpose and control gained from her tutalige. The fact she killed someone wasn't exactly the reason she was punished (the blindness), it was the fact that she was setting herself up as the aribter of who should be killed due to her prior identity.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 08:13:41 AM by lamaros »

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jayfyve
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Reply #127 on: July 20, 2009, 02:10:38 PM

Sean Bean will be Ned!

Just for sure.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 02:12:27 PM by jayfyve »
WayAbvPar
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Reply #128 on: July 20, 2009, 04:26:53 PM

Bean would have been better fitted to play Jaime imo. He has a world class sneer, which is a requirement for the part. Don't know Mark Addy, but he certainly looks the part of Robert.


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Reply #129 on: July 20, 2009, 09:10:57 PM


'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
gryeyes
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Reply #130 on: July 21, 2009, 02:11:20 AM

I so wish that this is awesome, it has extreme potential. HBO someone who tends to not skimp on budget or quality for at least a few seasons. And the inherent goodness of the novels.
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Reply #131 on: July 21, 2009, 02:09:17 PM

Bean is well outside of the right age range to play Jamie (he's 50.)

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Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
Khaldun
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Reply #132 on: July 21, 2009, 03:36:55 PM

Martin has been pretty clear that his template is not chivalric high fantasy of the Ivanhoe kind (a lot of fantasy) or a freshened-up version of old fantasy epics (Tolkien) or something like China Mieville's Marxification of Tolkienesque fantasy. He's drawing from the Wars of the Roses & Hundred Years War, in which:

a) there  were a few just undebatably evil schemers who were always doing some bad shit, sometimes psycho bad shit
b) most everyone else did some good things, some things that were loyal to their side or faction and some really astonishingly awful and evil things. All while being pretty distinct as individuals.

Read Barbara Tuchman's history of the Hundred Years War and I think you'll see where Martin is getting some of his ideas for characters and some of the mini-plots in the series. Frankly I wish he'd go read Tuchman again, because there's some ideas for events that he hasn't tapped into yet and it might help him resolve what is obviously serious writer's block.
WayAbvPar
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Reply #133 on: July 22, 2009, 11:46:20 AM

Quote
Read Barbara Tuchman's history of the Hundred Years War

Is that A Distant Mirror? That seemed to be the closest match. Just put a hold on it at the local library...thanks for the recommendation!

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Who the hell taught you how to write? Fuck, that sentence is like internet transmitted face-attacking knives. Jesus. schild
Khaldun
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Reply #134 on: July 24, 2009, 12:21:11 PM

Distant Mirror, yup.
JWIV
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Reply #135 on: August 04, 2009, 08:56:58 AM

Jennifer Ehle is Catelyn Stark.  Confirmed by GRRM


http://grrm.livejournal.com/97759.html
lamaros
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Reply #136 on: August 04, 2009, 09:29:35 PM

Almost looks too likeable in her pictures!

Expect poison from the standing water.
Threash
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Reply #137 on: August 09, 2009, 12:04:35 PM

Its recapped a few pages up. Cersei is introduced and promptly gets caught fucking her brother, whom she goads into throwing a child from a window. She then orders a little girls wolf to be killed out of pure spite. Kills the king and Ned, this is just ONE book. Penis envy is not a "window" into why she does these things. Which is the only insight we are given into why she is so fucked up. Catelyn on the other hand is just an annoying nosy bitch, who basically fails at everything she attempts.

I hate to defend the crazy bitch but she did not goad Jamie into throwing Bran out the window, quite the opposite in fact.  I believe she said something like "he was only a child, i could have scared him into shutting up"

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lamaros
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Reply #138 on: August 09, 2009, 11:45:41 PM

Its recapped a few pages up. Cersei is introduced and promptly gets caught fucking her brother, whom she goads into throwing a child from a window. She then orders a little girls wolf to be killed out of pure spite. Kills the king and Ned, this is just ONE book. Penis envy is not a "window" into why she does these things. Which is the only insight we are given into why she is so fucked up. Catelyn on the other hand is just an annoying nosy bitch, who basically fails at everything she attempts.

I hate to defend the crazy bitch but she did not goad Jamie into throwing Bran out the window, quite the opposite in fact.  I believe she said something like "he was only a child, i could have scared him into shutting up"

Literal reading fail.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Paelos
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Reply #139 on: August 10, 2009, 01:43:23 AM

She's the damn devil.

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