Red Eagle Entertainment gets Wheel of Time; announces MMO *spoilers in here*

[Megrim]

For those who don't see what I'm getting at read volume 1, The Eye of the World, replacing the following names.

Shai'tan - Sauron
Moiraine - Gandalf
Lan - Aragorn
Rand - Frodo
Tam - Bilbo
Matrim - Merry
Perrin - Pippin

"Bilbo was talking again, he realized, sometimes only murmuring, sometimes loud enough to understand. "Battles are always hot, even in the snow. Sweat heat. Blood heat. Only death is cool."

"Merry bared his teeth in a silent, snarling rictus, and pulled himself into an ever tighter knot, but he never took his eyes from her. A convulsion shook him at her touch, and abruptly he pulled one hand out, slashing at her face with the ruby-hilted dagger."

"The wind roared with Frodo's voice down the pass, whipping the wall of flames into a wall of fire that sped away from him and toward the Trolloc host faster than a horse could run. Fire burned into the Trollocs and the mountains trembled with their screams."

Now if you want to argue that the Wheel of Time is merely a classic retelling of the hero's journey, as in Hero with a Thousand Faces, you'd probably be right. But there's a level of character complexity that WoT has that Lord of the Rings just doesn't get into, with the possible exception of Boromir. That's not a critique of LOTRO, it's just emblematic of our modern taste for more ambiguous characters. So yes, WoT is filled with certain archetypes, as many stories are... but there's a lot of flavor and nuance that is sitting there waiting to be appreciated.

wat

[Sir T]

but there's a lot of flavor and nuance that is sitting there waiting to be appreciated.

Well sure, Jordan had to fill it with something when he was writing 6 filler books where pretty much zip happened bar his bank balance expanding.

Anyway if we are talking estates suing, I think the owners of the Dune series would like a slice of that particular pie. Male-female aspects of magic, long prophesied male mage hero and a compleatly female mage class anyone?

[Lt.Dan]

This game should have only two classes.  Aes Sedai and Warder.  No more holy trinity shit anymore!

Also, this will be released on the Wii to allow the use of the Wii-mote for weaving the source.

And braid tugging!

Although for real innovation they could release for X-Box with top sekrit pouting and frowning detection.

(Sorry if there have been too many braid tugging jokes already - but hey WoT is 12 books of that shit)

[Merusk]

Now that's just plain not fair and untrue.


There's skirt smoothing, sniffing, muttering and pointed looks, too.

[GenVec]

But there's a level of character complexity that WoT has that Lord of the Rings just doesn't get into, with the possible exception of Boromir. That's not a critique of LOTRO, it's just emblematic of our modern taste for more ambiguous characters.

wat

I don't even want to start on that debate.

[Sheepherder]

Rand's unhealing wound is taken right from the Fisher King out of Arthurian legend I think. I expect the Holy Grail to show up any time now.

1. Jordan pretty much does an entire epilogue chapter devoted to "Hai dudes, Google the word Fisher"
2. He has used the holy grail, several times: Sa'angreal.  Brush up on your French and slice out a few letters.

[Megrim]

But there's a level of character complexity that WoT has that Lord of the Rings just doesn't get into, with the possible exception of Boromir. That's not a critique of LOTRO, it's just emblematic of our modern taste for more ambiguous characters.

wat

I don't even want to start on that debate.

Then why say it?

[GenVec]

But there's a level of character complexity that WoT has that Lord of the Rings just doesn't get into, with the possible exception of Boromir. That's not a critique of LOTRO, it's just emblematic of our modern taste for more ambiguous characters.

wat

I don't even want to start on that debate.

Then why say it?

I drop random provocative comments in the hopes of derailing threads even further. Seriously though, if you want to argue it, I'm going to need something a bit more solid than 'wat'.

[Megrim]

How about your face?

Also, the burden of proof is on you, since you are the one that made that stupid claim.

[GenVec]

I honestly just don't care enough to argue about who has more nuanced characters. You have your stupid opinion and I have mine.

I like video games and am eager to hear further thoughts to that end.

[Reg]

2. He has used the holy grail, several times: Sa'angreal.  Brush up on your French and slice out a few letters.

That's true about Sa'angreals but has he ever used one as the actual Holy Grail?  The Holy Grail is what's supposed to heal the Fisher King and his kingdom right?

Then there's Rand's lost hand. That's taken right out of Celtic Mythology. I bet he'll  be getting a silver prosthetic in the next book. Rand is a huge mish mash of every legendary hero you can think of. It's barely left enough mythology to apply to the other main characters.

[UnSub]

I am not disappointed at all that I didn't read these books. Thank you thread!

However, when that David Eddings Sparhawk- or Piers Anthony Incantions-based MMO comes out, then I'll be able to contribute! 

[Draegan]

Can you motherfuckers not spoil the last books since I havn't read them yet.

[HaemishM]

The similarities are astonishing. In fact just having Lan/Aragorn also being the mysteriously secretive rightful heir of a kingdom that was broken is probably grounds for a copyright case. That's a pretty specific detail copied very closely.

No, really it's not. Stop talking now.

[dusematic]

I didn't know if he was joking or not so I didn't get nasty.  I'm reformed. 

[Sheepherder]

That's true about Sa'angreals but has he ever used one as the actual Holy Grail?  The Holy Grail is what's supposed to heal the Fisher King and his kingdom right?

Winter's Heart, last chapter.

[Grimwell]

Can you motherfuckers not spoil the last books since I havn't read them yet.

I think the statute of fair limitations on spoilers has passed on this one my friend. Months have passed since the most recent book came out and if you aren't up to speed it's on you to avoid conversations about it. This isn't a week one spoiler, etc.

Re: Stabs & Jordan ripping Tolkien

You just took an Introduction to Literary Theory 127 didn't you? 

[Rasix]

Can you motherfuckers not spoil the last books since I havn't read them yet.

I think the statute of fair limitations on spoilers has passed on this one my friend. Months have passed since the most recent book came out and if you aren't up to speed it's on you to avoid conversations about it. This isn't a week one spoiler, etc.

Some of us stall out every time after Dumai's Wells.  So, no, the statute of limitations with Jordan is perpetual.

[Grimwell]

I'd counter that if you don't have it in you to finish the books, you shouldn't give a damn to have them spoiled.

[Rasix]

Shenanigans.  (I'm actually trying to finish them now.  I figure a dead Jordan means we get this series finished in shorter order.) 

Spoiler police have spoken.

[Draegan]

I've read the first 7 or 8 a few times (maybe not the last few, but the first 4 I have) and I'm basically not reading any of them again until it's ended.  There's to much detail in these books to pick them back up and my OCD flairs up when I'm missing information.

[dusematic]

What's with people claiming not to be big fans of the series and reading the volumes multiple times?  I've never read the same book twice in my life.  Looks like SOME people are in the closet about their love of WoT.

[Rasix]

I've never read the same book twice in my life.  Looks like SOME people are in the closet about their love of WoT.

For me, it's simply the same thing as watching a movie more than once or playing through a game multiple times.   Movies tend to be shorter, games tend to take longer.  All the difference I tend to see there.   There's multiple series/books that I've read a few times.   Some completed series are just too long or have ultimately bad pay offs that I don't bother.  With an uncompleted series, if there's time, I reread if it's been a long time between books.

As for WOT, it just always gets to a point where I feel like I'm slogging through it instead of enjoying it.  Kind of like what's happened to me with Erikson's Malazon series.

Yah, more than you wanted to know.

[Draegan]

What's with people claiming not to be big fans of the series and reading the volumes multiple times?  I've never read the same book twice in my life.  Looks like SOME people are in the closet about their love of WoT.

I never said I didn't like the series, quite the opposite.

[Venkman]

Jeez, wut? Yea, you could create some direct parallels, but WoT very quickly diverges from the usual trite fantasy hero's journey.

You wanna talk knockoffs? Go with The Belgariod 

[Reg]

But all this talk of copyright infringement is silly anyway. It just doesn't work like that with fiction. And as someone said already if there was going to be a lawsuit for infringement it would have happened when Terry Brooks published The Sword of Shannara which was such a massive ripoff of Tolkien that I couldn't even finish it.

[GenVec]

Jeez, wut? Yea, you could create some direct parallels, but WoT very quickly diverges from the usual trite fantasy hero's journey.

You wanna talk knockoffs? Go with The Belgariod  

There's 17 stages to Campbell's monomyth and with a broad enough interpretation you can pick them out quite easily. Here's the first six.

The Call to Adventure
The hero starts off in a mundane situation of normality from which some information is received that acts as a call to head off into the unknown.
I don't think anyone's going to argue that one.

Refusal of the Call
Often when the call is given, the future hero refuses to heed it. This may be from a sense of duty or obligation, fear, insecurity, a sense of inadequacy, or any of a range of reasons that work to hold the person in his or her current circumstances.
Rand doesn't want to leave the Two Rivers, but reluctantly realizes the necessity of it now that he is being hunted by Darkspawn.

Supernatural Aid
Once the hero has committed to the quest, consciously or unconsciously, his or her guide and magical helper appears, or becomes known. More often than not, this supernatural mentor will present the hero with one or more talismans or artifacts that will aid them later in their quest.
Moraine bestows knowledge of the Dark One and his designs on the world, Tam gives him the Heron-marked (and power-forged) sword.

The Crossing of the First Threshold
This is the point where the person actually crosses into the field of adventure, leaving the known limits of his or her world and venturing into an unknown and dangerous realm where the rules and limits are not known.
Flight from the Two Rivers pursued by Dragkhar.

Belly of The Whale
The belly of the whale represents the final separation from the hero's known world and self. By entering this stage, the person shows willingness to undergo a metamorphosis.
You might argue that this occurs when he first channels to give strength to Egwene and save Bela. Alternatively, Shadar Logoth. Or if you really want to encompass the whole series, it happens after he confronts the Trolloc Horde at Tarwin's Gap. Or takes up the Dragon Banner after Falme.
 
Amusingly enough, this began by me arguing that Jordan isn't a knockoff of Tolken, something which I stand by. But saying that he radically breaks away from the hero's journey/hero with a thousand faces is equally ridiculous. There's nothing "trite" about the monomyth; it's just an attempt to describe the fundamental structures that underlay these types of stories.

[naum]

Jeez, wut? Yea, you could create some direct parallels, but WoT very quickly diverges from the usual trite fantasy hero's journey.

You wanna talk knockoffs? Go with The Belgariod  

There's 17 stages to Campbell's monomyth and with a broad enough interpretation you can pick them out quite easily. Here's the first six.………………

…

Amusingly enough, this began by me arguing that Jordan isn't a knockoff of Tolken, something which I stand by. But saying that he radically breaks away from the hero's journey/hero with a thousand faces is equally ridiculous. There's nothing "trite" about the monomyth; it's just an attempt to describe the fundamental structures that underlay these types of stories.

I've been reading this legendary tome on screenwriting by Robert McKee, and according to him, just about all screenplays (except for a few upside-down deviations) follow the "Hero's Journey" template.

Except he uses his own laced jargon instead of Campbell's — he calls it a quest, but it's riddled with nearly the same plot inflection points, but it pretty much is the exact same paradigm…

[dusematic]

Only so many ways to skin a cat.  Not how but how well.

[Venkman]

Jeez, wut? Yea, you could create some direct parallels, but WoT very quickly diverges from the usual trite fantasy hero's journey.

You wanna talk knockoffs? Go with The Belgariod  
[/quote]
There's 17 stages to Campbell's monomyth and with a broad enough interpretation you can pick them out quite easily. Here's the first six.

The Call to Adventure
The hero starts off in a mundane situation of normality from which some information is received that acts as a call to head off into the unknown.
I don't think anyone's going to argue that one.

Refusal of the Call
Often when the call is given, the future hero refuses to heed it. This may be from a sense of duty or obligation, fear, insecurity, a sense of inadequacy, or any of a range of reasons that work to hold the person in his or her current circumstances.
Rand doesn't want to leave the Two Rivers, but reluctantly realizes the necessity of it now that he is being hunted by Darkspawn.

Supernatural Aid
Once the hero has committed to the quest, consciously or unconsciously, his or her guide and magical helper appears, or becomes known. More often than not, this supernatural mentor will present the hero with one or more talismans or artifacts that will aid them later in their quest.
Moraine bestows knowledge of the Dark One and his designs on the world, Tam gives him the Heron-marked (and power-forged) sword.

The Crossing of the First Threshold
This is the point where the person actually crosses into the field of adventure, leaving the known limits of his or her world and venturing into an unknown and dangerous realm where the rules and limits are not known.
Flight from the Two Rivers pursued by Dragkhar.

Belly of The Whale
The belly of the whale represents the final separation from the hero's known world and self. By entering this stage, the person shows willingness to undergo a metamorphosis.
You might argue that this occurs when he first channels to give strength to Egwene and save Bela. Alternatively, Shadar Logoth. Or if you really want to encompass the whole series, it happens after he confronts the Trolloc Horde at Tarwin's Gap. Or takes up the Dragon Banner after Falme.
 
Amusingly enough, this began by me arguing that Jordan isn't a knockoff of Tolken, something which I stand by. But saying that he radically breaks away from the hero's journey/hero with a thousand faces is equally ridiculous. There's nothing "trite" about the monomyth; it's just an attempt to describe the fundamental structures that underlay these types of stories. [/spoiler]
[/quote]

And yes, you can eventually distill everything ever written down to a series of molecules too

My point was that over all of the WoT books I've read (not yet the last two), the story markedly diverges from LoTR a lot more than the five books of The Belgariod (and The Mallorean, which was sort of a retelling). Those parallels sustain through the whole series a lot closer than they do over the WoT series.

I shouldn't have said "trite hero's journey". But ya never know what's going to set someone off on some academic tangent 

[Xilren's Twin]

For me, it's simply the same thing as watching a movie more than once or playing through a game multiple times.   Movies tend to be shorter, games tend to take longer.  All the difference I tend to see there.   There's multiple series/books that I've read a few times.   Some completed series are just too long or have ultimately bad pay offs that I don't bother.  With an uncompleted series, if there's time, I reread if it's been a long time between books.

As for WOT, it just always gets to a point where I feel like I'm slogging through it instead of enjoying it.  Kind of like what's happened to me with Erikson's Malazon series.

I just started rereading the Malazan series bc it had been so long between his new book i wanted it to make sense.  Unlike WoT with Erikson's stuff i feel like i have to pay attention because there so much important crap hidden in the minutea of what happens/doesn't happen and what is said/not said.  His books are slog because there is so many things going on at once often involving very intricate histories in a complex world.  Too many important/powerful characters.  WoT on the other hand, just has so much meaningless fluff padding each book after 3, sprinkled with scenes which actually move the plot forward that when i re-read one of those, i skim most pages and just hit the highlight.  Much quicker that way (though i must say the latest book moved along much better with Sanderson at the helm - btw if you haven't read his mistborn series those are worth a read too for the magic system alone).

And enough with the"every fantasy series is the same" Campbell archtypes and crap.  Yes it's true but its a stupid argument over which series is "ripping off" another let alone which is "best".  Just like video games, it's all about the specifics of the implementation of the story (game).  The WoT world is actually an nice setting and does make good fodder for a book, game, movie or RPG.  Jordan's writing style may leave a lot to be desired, but i cant fault the world design too much.  By contrast, as iconic as the LotR is, from a pure reading enjoyment standpoint i find them almost as much of a slog as WoT just because of Tolkien's writing style.

Bring on the games so we can talk about how they ripped off WoW feature X instead   

[Sheepherder]

Jordan's only problem was that he couldn't maintain a proper pace worth a shit.

[HaemishM]

That's like saying Salvatore's only problem was that he wrote about dark elves. 

[Draegan]

The Malazan books were terrible toward the newer ones.  The last one was Toll of the Hounds?  I think.  I couldn't make it through it. 

[Threash]

The Malazan books were terrible toward the newer ones.  The last one was Toll of the Hounds?  I think.  I couldn't make it through it. 

I've read up to Bonehunters so far and i've had a very hard time putting them down, they are all incredibly good.