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Author Topic: Red Eagle Entertainment gets Wheel of Time; announces MMO *spoilers in here*  (Read 86728 times)
Venkman
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Reply #35 on: February 13, 2010, 05:14:42 PM

Warhammer. 

Which proved what exactly? This was not the Warhammer that Warhammer fans expected. It was that other Warhammer distilled down to a mere shadow knockoff of WoW with minor points of departure only MMO geeks would even understand. All the units it sold merely showed there's a market of people tired of WoW. It's cliiffdive showed what it takes to be a competent alternative.

Same can be said for Aoc and ChampO.
Setanta
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Reply #36 on: February 13, 2010, 07:20:04 PM

Well, shit the books have grinds and never-ending treadmills down to a science. An MMOG just seems appropo.

This made me snort coke out of my nostrils. AKA the liquid kind. Sadly, it's true.

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Reply #37 on: February 13, 2010, 09:29:21 PM

I really don't get this sentiment. 

Has it ever worked?  WoT sucks......a lot.  I'm sure the game will be terrible too.

That's not the point.  It's not like it sucks worse than Blizzard lore novels or Star Trek books.   I mean last I checked John Updike wasn't writing Star Wars novellas.  The point is it's going to be the same shit as everything else with  WoT reskin.  So it seems weird to me people would have trouble imagining a WoT MMO.

And so......you're confused as to why I'm baffled as to why people are giving money to this shit?
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Reply #38 on: February 13, 2010, 10:12:08 PM

Man, such WoT hate.  Funny enough, I've just been re-reading the first few books since the final books are coming out.  I recognize the flaws it developed, but even re-reading it now, I still think its better than most fantasy out there.  There are a few that are definitely better (IE Song of Ice and Fire), but its still a good read.

Having said that, I don't see it translating to an MMO well, and all indications point to this just being a companies attempt to cash in on a license, so the game is going to be derivative shit if it actually ever gets made (unlikely).

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naum
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Reply #39 on: February 13, 2010, 11:10:58 PM

The proliferation of MUDS and MOOs attests to the fact that there is a playerbase waiting,

If you combined the populations of all the WoT MUDs and MOOs, you might feel a few WoW servers. This is not the size of the player playerbase people make MMOs for.

An MMO for WoT is only going to launch if they can cast a much wider net of attraction from a movie. It's not about the books, because no one could ever have a big enough budget to do that series the kind of justice fans of the books would want. So the movie will distill things down to the highlights (probably just book one) and then the MMO will be about killing ten Trollogs.

That could be fine. But we have plenty of that already. I'd really like a good WoT game that shows how the series is different from your usual fantasy tripe. But I don't think anyone involved in these projects can get that kind of budget.

I played a WoT MUD way back, and there was a bunch of them about…

Still, I doubt there is a significant fraction of WoW players that even know what a MUD is. Though the books are still popular and younger folks are still indulging in the WoT series afresh…

…I made it all the way to Winter's Heart and a third of the way through, I could takes no mores…
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 11:12:44 PM by naum »

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dusematic
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Reply #40 on: February 14, 2010, 02:28:02 AM

Warhammer.  

Which proved what exactly? This was not the Warhammer that Warhammer fans expected. It was that other Warhammer distilled down to a mere shadow knockoff of WoW with minor points of departure only MMO geeks would even understand. All the units it sold merely showed there's a market of people tired of WoW. It's cliiffdive showed what it takes to be a competent alternative.

Same can be said for Aoc and ChampO.


I guess my point is that Warhammer is a pretty fucking niche hobbyist game.  Even more so than D&D, and the MMO based off the Warhammer property still managed to launch with much fanfare and grab a large chunk of subs, at least initially, until everyone realized it sucked balls.  Also, my point is that whatever the license is, they'll just shoehorn a prototypical MMO inside of it and so all this talk of not understanding how an MMO will work based off the IP is confusing to me.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 02:30:12 AM by dusematic »
Merusk
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Reply #41 on: February 14, 2010, 06:00:11 AM

It's certainly more combat, class and grind oriented than LoTR and ST.  It'll translate into a typical MMO very well.  The only question is where the PC vs NPC dividing line will be.  Will you play a Child of the Light, Aiel and Darkfriend or will they be reduced to no more than PCs.

Hell, it'd make a killer PvP game with all the factions out there if you turned channelers into your typical MMO mage.


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Venkman
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Reply #42 on: February 14, 2010, 07:02:29 AM



I guess my point is that Warhammer is a pretty fucking niche hobbyist game.  Even more so than D&D, and the MMO based off the Warhammer property still managed to launch with much fanfare and grab a large chunk of subs, at least initially, until everyone realized it sucked balls.  Also, my point is that whatever the license is, they'll just shoehorn a prototypical MMO inside of it and so all this talk of not understanding how an MMO will work based off the IP is confusing to me.

Oh, ok, yea, then we aggressively agree smiley I just think it had far less to do with the IP than it had with all the marketing that was done to promote this was WoW 2.0. Which, not-so-coincidentally, is similar to how DAoC was peddled as EQ 1.5 smiley
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Reply #43 on: February 14, 2010, 08:50:33 AM

I'm not sure this book series has enough of a fan base to merit spending the money on the IP.  It just doesn't make a lot of sense.  Why not just make a game?
dusematic
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Reply #44 on: February 14, 2010, 09:00:18 AM

I'm not sure this book series has enough of a fan base to merit spending the money on the IP.  It just doesn't make a lot of sense.  Why not just make a game?


I was just thinking that, but not only in terms of WoT, but also every other niche MMO license.  I mean Warhammer?  Most people have never even fucking heard of that, at least D&D has some cultural cachet for the average person, if not always in a positive light.  I wonder how much the IP rights cost for shit like this, I'm sure it varies but why not just spend that on marketing?  Maybe there is just more value than we think in the hardcore fans of X or Y IP spreading the gospel around the internet and to their friends.  If licensing these sorts of IP's was financially imprudent, I doubt we'd see it continue to occur so often.

Edit:  I suppose another thing to consider is that none of us seem to be overly fond of WoT, but we've heard of it, and I doubt the fact that an MMO was based on WoT would preclude any of us from playing it if it tickled our fancy.  So, maybe there is a value in knowing about that "WoT MMO" that makes it stand out from a sea of other titles.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 09:04:41 AM by dusematic »
Sir T
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Reply #45 on: February 14, 2010, 09:09:45 AM

Man, such WoT hate.  Funny enough, I've just been re-reading the first few books since the final books are coming out.  I recognize the flaws it developed, but even re-reading it now, I still think its better than most fantasy out there.  There are a few that are definitely better (IE Song of Ice and Fire), but its still a good read.

The problems people have with WOT had was not the first few books (which most people agree are quite good.) Its the fact it became the neverending story, and not in a good way. I remember when there was only supposed to be 4 books in it. But it became an obvious cash cow, and totally formulaic. For years after I gave up on it I walked into bookshops and groaned when I saw yet ANOTHER one. If the guy had lived another 20 years he would have kept writing them and inventing prophecies.

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Reply #46 on: February 14, 2010, 09:36:11 AM

Assuming this doesn't end up vaporware or completely awful, I'd at least buy the box based on the WoT license alone; the IP generates more appeal than it did for  WAR, DDO* or WoW.

*My big problem with DDO was that it was set in Eberron, not one of the more recognizable campaign settings like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.

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dusematic
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Reply #47 on: February 14, 2010, 09:58:39 AM

Man, such WoT hate.  Funny enough, I've just been re-reading the first few books since the final books are coming out.  I recognize the flaws it developed, but even re-reading it now, I still think its better than most fantasy out there.  There are a few that are definitely better (IE Song of Ice and Fire), but its still a good read.

The problems people have with WOT had was not the first few books (which most people agree are quite good.) Its the fact it became the neverending story, and not in a good way. I remember when there was only supposed to be 4 books in it. But it became an obvious cash cow, and totally formulaic. For years after I gave up on it I walked into bookshops and groaned when I saw yet ANOTHER one. If the guy had lived another 20 years he would have kept writing them and inventing prophecies.

I agree the first 3 books were pretty good.  The problem is really when any author attains any amount of success or notoriety they become very difficult to edit for.  This was no doubt exacerbated by the fact that at some point, Jordan made his wife his editor.  To me knowledge she wasn't even a professional editor previously.  Even if she was, one can see how that would be problematic.  There was like a 4 or 5 book span where essentially no major plot points occurred.  He could have wrapped up the series quite nicely in seven books without breaking a sweat.  Instead of the 16 it will end up being now that the final bookw as split into three books.
Sheepherder
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Reply #48 on: February 14, 2010, 12:01:34 PM

Hell, it'd make a killer PvP game with all the factions out there if you turned channelers into your typical MMO mage.

Them being a typical MMO mage would suck pretty hard, even if it would be prudent for balancing.  Better to do something like this:

  • All channelling requires a wait time before it can begin (embracing the source).
  • All channellers have extremely limited longevity.
  • Aes Sedai have to contend with the oath against using the power as a weapon (Black Ajah can break the oath, with consequences).
  • Male channellers die as they channel.
  • A players class/faction is not shown unless the viewer has special abilities, so people (Whitecloaks, Darkfriends) can easily ambush a Channeller.
dusematic
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Reply #49 on: February 14, 2010, 02:34:26 PM

Hell, it'd make a killer PvP game with all the factions out there if you turned channelers into your typical MMO mage.

Them being a typical MMO mage would suck pretty hard, even if it would be prudent for balancing.  Better to do something like this:

  • All channelling requires a wait time before it can begin (embracing the source).
  • All channellers have extremely limited longevity.
  • Aes Sedai have to contend with the oath against using the power as a weapon (Black Ajah can break the oath, with consequences).
  • Male channellers die as they channel.
  • A players class/faction is not shown unless the viewer has special abilities, so people (Whitecloaks, Darkfriends) can easily ambush a Channeller.

Why is this stuff a good idea in your opinion?  Do you think that would make for better game mechanics in general, or is that your interpretation of the lore?  Because if it's the latter I don't think it's accurate.  Anyway, a good game company will sacrifice lore for gameplay every time.  Just ask Blizzard.
Venkman
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Reply #50 on: February 14, 2010, 04:06:15 PM

How has Blizzard sacrified lore when they write and control the whole thing? smiley

But I get your point. And agree. Unless part of the lore is the specific mechanic of how things work in that world. In which case radical departures could alienate that audience.

Unless the audience is too small to care about  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
dusematic
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Reply #51 on: February 14, 2010, 05:01:36 PM

How has Blizzard sacrified lore when they write and control the whole thing? smiley


I consider copious retcons as a sacrifical lamb to good gameplay.  Not that it bothers me mind you, it's really the best and only option.
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Reply #52 on: February 14, 2010, 05:56:20 PM

Whether you like the books or not, the guy has sold 40+ million of them, which is a serious number in the publishing business.  I find it hard to believe that wouldn't translate into at least some box sales.
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Reply #53 on: February 14, 2010, 05:59:08 PM

Whether you like the books or not, the guy has sold 40+ million of them, which is a serious number in the publishing business.  I find it hard to believe that wouldn't translate into at least some box sales.

We've had this discussion a million times about IP translating into sales.  Selling games to a core audience of gamers that worship the ground you walk on isn't difficult.  Every other type of fandom -> MMO  seems to be a bit difficult depending on how high you aim.

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vos
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Reply #54 on: February 14, 2010, 06:09:17 PM

I guess it really depends how much they paid for the rights to the IP.

Would it not be significantly cheaper to adapt material than to create it out of whole cloth from a development standpoint? Would a AAA MMO need less writers on staff to adapt than create?
Sheepherder
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Reply #55 on: February 14, 2010, 06:30:12 PM

Because if it's the latter I don't think it's accurate.

It's a half-assed attempt at a middle ground.  Just imagine a system where Aes Sedai are only allowed to respond in kind with deadly force, otherwise they use crowd control and a warder minion to protect themselves.  Then again, you're probably thinking DIKU and I'm thinking more along the lines of UO or Lineage.
Venkman
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Reply #56 on: February 14, 2010, 07:46:40 PM

IP in MMOs is like marketing: it can open the door to invite new players in, but the game itself needs to be engaging after that first month (or for enough tens of millions that 5% buying into it can fund your game). IP isn't going to solve crappy execution.

I guess it really depends how much they paid for the rights to the IP.

Would it not be significantly cheaper to adapt material than to create it out of whole cloth from a development standpoint? Would a AAA MMO need less writers on staff to adapt than create?

Nah, because all writing needs to be adapted to the story telling medium of task lists and cut scenes. That's where all the work goes. Sitting around coming up with new ideas is never the problem. Anywhere you go you've always got people who'd cut off their right arm to conceptualize a new self-consistent world of their own.
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Reply #57 on: February 14, 2010, 09:58:33 PM

So for the 50-100 million dollar, 5-8 year, MMO's having an existing IP doesn't matter either way, and could be argued that a whole new IP from the groud up is worth more to them in the long haul (assuming the MMO is successful)?


Since WoT likely doesn't fall into that category. Is the logic behind it to spend 15-25 million and 3 years on an existing IP and hope you make 30-40 million on initial box sales and the first 2 months of subs, and anything after that is gravy?

I guess my question is does the scale of the development affect whether or not using an existing IP is a good idea or not.

I totally get that the long term success of an MMO is dependent on the quality of the game. I'm just wondering if there are companies out there looking to scale the same type of model that goes into say a movie tie-in license and it's short term model to a MMO game. (and by extension wouldn't the WoT license be a good possibility for this?)
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Reply #58 on: February 15, 2010, 12:03:58 AM

  • Male channellers die as they channel.

I approve of the idea of suicide bomber as a player character choice - it's certainly fun in Eve.
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Reply #59 on: February 15, 2010, 12:31:22 AM

IP totally matters in an MMO. That's why the three biggest games in the world are LOTRO, DDO, and SWG.

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Reply #60 on: February 15, 2010, 02:02:13 AM

Those are good games to illustrate your point.
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Reply #61 on: February 15, 2010, 06:11:53 AM

Those are good games to illustrate your point.

Should he have used Champions Online or Warhammer?
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Reply #62 on: February 15, 2010, 06:49:53 AM

I don't know why this discussion continues to come up.  Using an existing IP is nothing more than buying marketing.  It will not make your game any more or less successful long term than not have having it; it is all about the initial hype period and marketing push.  It only affects your game design superficially (graphics, settings, lore) unless the IP in question comes with some restrictions built in.  The WoT IP is perfectly fine for a company to use to help attract attention, and depending on how much they had to pay for it, could make a lot of sense financially.

Breaking into a well established market pretty much means you have to have something for people to talk about and get excited.  IP is just a tool for that.
Bioware's recent games of DA and ME:2 are all about building their own IP's, but when they started, they were making games based on the D&D and SW's IP's and they did that for a reason...

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Reply #63 on: February 15, 2010, 07:58:10 AM

Should he have used Champions Online or Warhammer?
I'd say Star Trek, but it'll be a few months before we can definitively hammer the point home.  "Maybe this time it'll work!"

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Threash
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Reply #64 on: February 15, 2010, 09:24:26 AM

I don't know why this discussion continues to come up.  Using an existing IP is nothing more than buying marketing.  It will not make your game any more or less successful long term than not have having it; it is all about the initial hype period and marketing push.  It only affects your game design superficially (graphics, settings, lore) unless the IP in question comes with some restrictions built in.  The WoT IP is perfectly fine for a company to use to help attract attention, and depending on how much they had to pay for it, could make a lot of sense financially.

Breaking into a well established market pretty much means you have to have something for people to talk about and get excited.  IP is just a tool for that.
Bioware's recent games of DA and ME:2 are all about building their own IP's, but when they started, they were making games based on the D&D and SW's IP's and they did that for a reason...

Exactly, there's going to be a lot more interest in a "Wheel of Time" MMO than in "generic land of annoying women and interminable sequels" MMO.  That doesn't mean you are gonna get a million subs with a shitty game, it means more people are going to look at it than otherwise would.

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BoatApe
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Reply #65 on: February 15, 2010, 10:39:02 AM

Should players be able to be Ta'veren? ACK! Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

(imagines an entire world full of toons whose very presence causes random changes in the world around them)

I can picture the forums now...
Sheepherder
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Reply #66 on: February 15, 2010, 12:07:41 PM

Should he have used Champions Online or Warhammer?

Warhammer hit a million people before it collapsed under the weight of Paul Barnett (among other things), so yeah, that would be an option.
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Reply #67 on: February 15, 2010, 12:10:12 PM

IP in MMOs is like marketing: it can open the door to invite new players in, but the game itself needs to be engaging after that first month (or for enough tens of millions that 5% buying into it can fund your game).

Buying an IP is all about two things: 1) Geek dev fascination with the IP and 2) cross-promotional marketing potential. The last WoT book comes out and has a trail code for the MMO. Suddenly you have millions of interested potential customers to market to. No, a book IP isn't great for that, unless you are talking about one of the biggest fantasy book IP's on the planet. Any marketer worth his salt knows that geeks will buy shit in a box if you label it right.

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Reply #68 on: February 15, 2010, 12:45:48 PM

I really don't get this sentiment.

Has it ever worked?  WoT sucks......a lot.  I'm sure the game will be terrible too.

mmmK, many people would disagree with that.

There has been hundreds of WoT MUD's out there including a few dozen NWN Modules out there for it. I would say a good portion of them were popular at least in the genre of MUD's. It might now count for much but that's without marketing and without a lot of people playing online games like 12 years ago. ;)

P.S

Many houses can pull this off. The days of limited MMO developers are over at least for the eastern markets.  why so serious?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 12:47:45 PM by Famine »

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HaemishM
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Reply #69 on: February 15, 2010, 12:50:53 PM

There are a lot of MMO devs out there, this is true. Expecting any of them to pull this off without it being a great big pile of broken, derivative DIKU shit is as fruitless as making a prophecy for when Noltor the God of Moon Pies will come down and destroy the earth with his mighty marshmallow filling.

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