Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
January 28, 2022, 11:04:34 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Random nerd thread unrelated to orig. topic. Current: Tanks vs Mechs! 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 ... 16 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Random nerd thread unrelated to orig. topic. Current: Tanks vs Mechs!  (Read 168287 times)
Stormwaltz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2918


Reply #385 on: December 28, 2008, 12:23:41 AM

I may have missed something relevent on previous pages. Sorry, I skipped to the end...

As I understand it, for mecha to "as useful as infantry" in an urban environment, they have to be much lighter weight than the titans of Battletech and most anime. The pounds per square inch pressure of tons of metal on the smaller surface area of a foot is the critical limitation. Comparing a mecha's feet vs. a tank's treads is like comparing guys with and without snowshoes in snow. With tank treads, weight is distributed over a much larger surface area. A 60-ton mech is not just "leaving potholes in the pavement" - it's probably going to sink into the road with every step. And probably into most other ground that isn't very rocky as well. Don't even attempt to wade a river; you're just asking to get stuck in the mud.

For mechs to enjoy the advantages of mobility that humans have over heavy armored vehicles, they have to accept the limitations of lighter weight and armor.

Arguably the most "realistic" mecha ever animated are found in Gasaraki, a series by Ryousuke Takahashi (Armored Trooper VOTOMS, Flag) and Goro Taniguchi (Planetes, Code Gaess). Here's an ambush of a tank formation at night (note: the Americans have no idea mecha exist).

Nothing in this post represents the views of my current or previous employers.

"Isn't that just like an elf? Brings a spell to a gun fight."

"Sci-Fi writers don't invent the future, they market it."
- Henry Cobb
Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848


Reply #386 on: December 28, 2008, 12:48:11 AM

What about a mech torso mounted on a tank?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028

Badicalthon


Reply #387 on: December 28, 2008, 02:28:44 AM

I'm totally going to design a tank where the crew sits in a smaller lightly-armored cabin... er... head... on top of the turret. The Army will be all over this shit. The crew will feel so much safer knowing they present a much smaller and harder to hit target than if they were down in that huge heavily armored turret. I mean a guy could get critted from any direction down there.

 awesome, for real

Quote
For mechs to enjoy the advantages of mobility that humans have over heavy armored vehicles, they have to accept the limitations of lighter weight and armor.

Given that a mech requires heavier armor in comparison to a conventional vehicle just to achieve the same level of protection, a mech that sacrifices armor in order to keep weight down is going to be very thin-skinned indeed. Anime videos of mechs pirouetting out of the way of cannon shells aside, being able to juke and twist like a human being doesn't stop... well... humans from getting shot all the time. Bullets travel fast.

EDIT: I'm generally of the opinion that you never have enough armor, at least not when fighting a well-equipped enemy. I've heard noise over the years about the Army wanting to phase out tanks almost entirely and just use vehicles like the Stryker. The first time we fight someone with access to state of the art RPGs, that idea will go out the window.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 02:37:18 AM by WindupAtheist »

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Ratman_tf
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3818


Reply #388 on: December 28, 2008, 05:19:33 AM

What about a mech torso mounted on a tank?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?





Nearly believable!



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742


Reply #389 on: December 28, 2008, 09:21:40 AM

Ach! I don't have the picture of Optimus Prime punching out a Gundam.  sad



Now I feel better.

 swamp poop vs  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Aez
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1369


Reply #390 on: December 28, 2008, 09:36:04 AM

Stormwaltz's video just proved Windup's point.  A single tank loaded with 30+ of those overpowered mech's missiles could have achieved the same results at a much better cost.

Sophismata
Terracotta Army
Posts: 543


Reply #391 on: December 28, 2008, 10:24:23 AM

One of the cooler abilities of the Gasaraki mechs - to set them apart from tanks - was that they could climb buildings. (Thinking back on it, they didn't really do much that infantry couldn't have done just as well). Unfortunately, the series became fairly nonsensical by episode 4 and ended up with no real conclusion, aside from the existentialist bullshit. At least, I think it was existentialism... it was some sort of philosophic musing, in any case. Seems to happen to a lot of (mecha) anime.

Good god was Gurren Lagann refreshing.

"You finally did it, you magnificent bastards. You went so nerd that even I don't know WTF you're talking about anymore. I salute you." - WindupAtheist
mnm
Guest


Email
Reply #392 on: December 28, 2008, 10:32:05 AM

I may have missed something relevent on previous pages. Sorry, I skipped to the end...

As I understand it, for mecha to "as useful as infantry" in an urban environment, they have to be much lighter weight than the titans of Battletech and most anime.

For mechs to enjoy the advantages of mobility that humans have over heavy armored vehicles, they have to accept the limitations of lighter weight and armor.

Arguably the most "realistic" mecha ever animated are found in Gasaraki, a series by Ryousuke Takahashi (Armored Trooper VOTOMS, Flag) and Goro Taniguchi (Planetes, Code Gaess). Here's an ambush of a tank formation at night (note: the Americans have no idea mecha exist).


Ehh to Battletech's credit it also did introduce Battle Armor and Protomechs. The only reason Protomechs are fanciful is due to their interface.
Jain Zar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1362


Reply #393 on: December 28, 2008, 03:30:43 PM

Some of the similarities between Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy and Dragonstomper are far closer to eachother than Ultima.

In fact, Enix credits Dragonstomper as the inspiration behind Dragon Warrior.

Edit: I'm fairly sure Dragon Stomper invented the turn-based battle system and random encounter systems that would be the love and bane of JRPGs for the rest of time as well.

Uhh... I haven't read the rest of this thread yet having just discovered it, but there is an actual history of Dragon Quest manga out there and according to people who have read it (and sadly not scanlated it because I want to read that shit!) Dragon Quest is Ultima's tile graphics and top down game design plus Wizardry's command driven combat system.  Only accessible and easy.

Hopefully I will see this information later on in the thread.  God Schild, your views on what are good games are incredibly shitty.  Saying NES RPGs were better than computer ones of the same era?
ARE YOU FUCKING HIGH?  Or just completely  Ohhhhh, I see. ?

And now I have (mostly) read this whole thread.  What a beautiful snowflake.  AND WHY DIDNT ANYONE FUCKING TELL ME IT WAS A THREAD ABOUT MECHA GODDAMNIT?
I'm like the biggest mechtard in this forum!

For the record: When I play Battletech my forces are usually tanks and hovercraft with light mecha for support.  Schrek PPC Carriers and Gabriel Hovertanks will fuck some shit up.  (The Gabriel is like the Savannah Master, only faster and its medium laser is turret mounted.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? )  Im a big fan of the Goliath since quadraped mechs don't fall down very much.  They weeble and they wobble but they don't fall down.  Plus its another design lifted from Fang of the Sun Dougram and I like Dougram mecha.  They are cool.

Yes giant robots are unrealistic and silly.  But like boobs their flaws don't keep me from being very fond of them.   Heart Heart 

Power armor is the future though, especially once the Emperor makes Space Marines to wear the armor wielding rifles that are effectively non fragmenting grenade launchers.  (At least till you get to the Heavy Bolter and Hellfire ammo.  Good for Tyranid hunting!)

So to summarize: Giant Robots: silly but they are awesome anyhow.  Can tanks throw entire galaxies like they are throwing stars?

I THINK NOT BITCHES.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 04:37:57 PM by Jain Zar »
Zzulo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 290


Reply #394 on: December 28, 2008, 05:44:32 PM

They've already developed fully automatic handheld rocket launchers for troops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfZSYL2Q4sI (halfway through)

As for power armor;


 awesome, for real
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028

Badicalthon


Reply #395 on: December 28, 2008, 06:46:45 PM

Random, but if I'm ever rich I want to own a Scorpion. They seem like a fun collector's vehicle. Small, light, fast, and they run on gasoline. At only 8 tons they weigh in at fewer pounds per square inch than a man on foot.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
mnm
Guest


Email
Reply #396 on: December 28, 2008, 08:16:12 PM

How about when we are all rich we circle jerk each other by pooling our money to buy each other mechs? PPCs aren't cheap and my Marauder requires two. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Kitsune
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2406


Reply #397 on: December 28, 2008, 09:27:44 PM

In order to be viable weapons, mechs need super magic technology.  They need to be lighter, faster, and tougher than the things we have today, and if you really want to go for the whole deal, they need to be able to fly.  In your average mecha jerk-off scene, you'll see a fifty-foot-tall robot come zooming in, pick up a tank, use it as a club to beat the shit out of another tank, blow up about thirty other tanks with eye lasers, and fly off again.

Now, we may well at some time in the future have awesome flying eye laser robot technology.  But by that point, odds are that other technologies will have made all human-piloted vehicles obsolete in war.  We'll just open the window and toss out a few self-guided mini-nukes that'll zip on over to the flying robot and destroy it while we eat our dinner in pill form.
Ratman_tf
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3818


Reply #398 on: December 28, 2008, 10:22:45 PM

In order to be viable weapons, mechs need super magic technology.  They need to be lighter, faster, and tougher than the things we have today, and if you really want to go for the whole deal, they need to be able to fly.  In your average mecha jerk-off scene, you'll see a fifty-foot-tall robot come zooming in, pick up a tank, use it as a club to beat the shit out of another tank, blow up about thirty other tanks with eye lasers, and fly off again.

Now, we may well at some time in the future have awesome flying eye laser robot technology.  But by that point, odds are that other technologies will have made all human-piloted vehicles obsolete in war.  We'll just open the window and toss out a few self-guided mini-nukes that'll zip on over to the flying robot and destroy it while we eat our dinner in pill form.

Don't forget the flying cars made of nanobots.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028

Badicalthon


Reply #399 on: December 28, 2008, 10:56:29 PM

In order to be viable weapons, mechs need super magic technology.  They need to be lighter, faster, and tougher than the things we have today, and if you really want to go for the whole deal, they need to be able to fly.

I like how flying tanks are a well-known joke around here, but someone (not you, Kitsune) earlier in this thread put forward flying mechs with a totally straight face. Also, that BattleTech wiki someone linked earlier is bad for me. As in, I could end up spending half a day just reading shit on there. Anti-mech fanatic that I am in nerd debates, I love me them games/books.

EDIT: Who do I need to kill to get a MechWarrior: Mercenaries game that's totally open ended? I loved MW4: Mercs right up until I got a really good unit going and it was over. I want endless random missions to pursue where I can have an effect on a simulated war, damnit.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 10:58:45 PM by WindupAtheist »

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848


Reply #400 on: December 29, 2008, 11:14:41 AM

Gods, I know.  I would kill for that game.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Hindenburg
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1854

Itto


Reply #401 on: December 29, 2008, 11:19:08 AM

I want endless random missions to pursue where I can have an effect on a simulated war, damnit.

You pretty much described Chromehounds' online mode.

"Who uses Outlook anyway?  People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27447

Badge Whore


Reply #402 on: December 29, 2008, 11:24:27 AM

Fuck, I'd kill for a new mech game in the same vein as MW4, period.  (No, i'm not buying a 360 just to have Chromehounds.)

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 59762


WWW
Reply #403 on: December 29, 2008, 11:26:28 AM

(No, i'm not buying a 360 just to have Chromehounds.)

Not particularly worth it anyhow.
Ghambit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5576


Reply #404 on: December 29, 2008, 02:23:30 PM

So what we need is Falcon 4.0 in Campaign mode with Mechs.  (mods anyone?)
Or WW2O with Mechs.
Or even Massive Assault Network or Civ4 converted to Battletech.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:26:57 PM by Ghambit »

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
Jain Zar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1362


Reply #405 on: December 29, 2008, 02:58:53 PM

(No, i'm not buying a 360 just to have Chromehounds.)

Not particularly worth it anyhow.

Agreed.  Its an ok mech game, but its no Mechwarrior 4 by any means.  And online play is stupid and pointless. 
(Made worse now by the fact there probably aren't many people actually playing it online anymore.)
IainC
Developers
Posts: 6538

Wargaming.net


WWW
Reply #406 on: December 29, 2008, 03:07:43 PM

Random, but if I'm ever rich I want to own a Scorpion. They seem like a fun collector's vehicle. Small, light, fast, and they run on gasoline. At only 8 tons they weigh in at fewer pounds per square inch than a man on foot.

25k for a Scorpion or you can get one of these for about the same price. The Sabre is a Scorpion chassis with a 30mm cannon instead of the 76mm main gun. If you're feeling adventurous, you can get a non-runner for about 15k

- And in stranger Iains, even Death may die -

SerialForeigner Photography.
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028

Badicalthon


Reply #407 on: December 29, 2008, 03:20:14 PM

Quote
Fully road legal. 1972 K' Registered. Road Tax exempt, MoT exempt. 4.2 Jaguar petrol engine. AFV Society members vehicle, excellent runner. good tracks, very straight all round. All external stowage stowage boxes fitted. 25,500.

Whaaa?!

Oh yeah, when I'm rich nobody had better cut me off in traffic ever again.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
IainC
Developers
Posts: 6538

Wargaming.net


WWW
Reply #408 on: December 29, 2008, 05:06:47 PM

Quote
Fully road legal. 1972 K' Registered. Road Tax exempt, MoT exempt. 4.2 Jaguar petrol engine. AFV Society members vehicle, excellent runner. good tracks, very straight all round. All external stowage stowage boxes fitted. 25,500.

Whaaa?!

Oh yeah, when I'm rich nobody had better cut me off in traffic ever again.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

Most armoured vehicles up to a certain size are road legal, because they're going to spend 98% of their operational life being driven on public roads.

- And in stranger Iains, even Death may die -

SerialForeigner Photography.
Aez
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1369


Reply #409 on: December 29, 2008, 06:17:38 PM

Random question : would using continuous tracks on van solve or at least help the damage they do to our roads?  I'm guessing it's more expensive than wheels and tires?
IainC
Developers
Posts: 6538

Wargaming.net


WWW
Reply #410 on: December 29, 2008, 06:38:42 PM

Random question : would using continuous tracks on van solve or at least help the damage they do to our roads?  I'm guessing it's more expensive than wheels and tires?
Generally yes, as the weight of the vehicle would be spread over a larger contact area, thus minimising the pressure on any given area of road. However metal treads tear chunks out of tarmac and rubber treads wear very fast.

- And in stranger Iains, even Death may die -

SerialForeigner Photography.
Kitsune
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2406


Reply #411 on: December 29, 2008, 09:11:58 PM

Mechs need to be able to fly.  See, comparing them to tanks is looking at them the wrong way.  Rather than being gangly, tall tanks, think of them as aircraft that can come to a full stop on the ground without a landing strip and deploy all of their weapons at will in the air or on land.  In that light, mechs are a much more viable military vehicle, more useful than helicopters.

Of course, there's still the magic technology to contend with, and the fact that by the time we could make flying robots we could just as easily have flying tanks.
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028

Badicalthon


Reply #412 on: December 29, 2008, 09:26:26 PM

There's so much wrong with this that I don't know where to start. Suffice it to say that what you're describing is essentially equivalent to bolting monster truck wheels onto the bottom of a Harrier jet, only even more awkward and cumbersome.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Ratman_tf
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3818


Reply #413 on: December 29, 2008, 11:35:51 PM

Suffice it to say that what you're describing is essentially equivalent to bolting monster truck wheels onto the bottom of a Harrier jet, only even more awkward and cumbersome.

Now I know what I want for my birthday!



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306


Reply #414 on: December 30, 2008, 12:49:51 AM

Aren't flying tanks just A-10's and Helicopters?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Ubvman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 182


Reply #415 on: December 30, 2008, 01:14:15 AM

Aren't flying tanks just A-10's and Helicopters?
Interestingly enough:



The Soviets bought up the various patents and came up with the Antonov A-40.


Its not a joke as it may seem as a lot of Walter Christie's ideas formed the basis of arguably the best tank in WW2, the T-34.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 01:19:49 AM by Ubvman »
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23051


Reply #416 on: December 30, 2008, 01:20:11 AM

NO WAI THE PANTHER WAS THE BESTEST TANK OF WWII awesome, for real
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028

Badicalthon


Reply #417 on: December 30, 2008, 02:05:51 AM

Even though it never saw production, I still like my Maus. Along with the Me163 rocket fighter it's the ultimate expression of the "Dude quit bitching about what's practical, this will be AWESOME!" design philosophy that plagued the Germans.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Ratman_tf
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3818


Reply #418 on: December 30, 2008, 05:48:42 AM

Even though it never saw production, I still like my Maus. Along with the Me163 rocket fighter it's the ultimate expression of the "Dude quit bitching about what's practical, this will be AWESOME!" design philosophy that plagued the Germans.

If they coulda built the ubermech, they woulda. Practicality be damned in the face of the master race!




 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028

Badicalthon


Reply #419 on: December 30, 2008, 07:32:14 AM

When the hell did my brown name and "User Error" title go away? It could have been weeks, I just now noticed. But now that I have noticed, I miss them.  cry

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14 ... 16 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Random nerd thread unrelated to orig. topic. Current: Tanks vs Mechs!  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC