Random nerd thread unrelated to orig. topic. Current: Tanks vs Mechs!

[Tale]

Actually that was not mentioned once in general chat and I was online in TR for a lot of today.

[1. General] SirT: Anyone else online?

/who 1-50

SirT

Ah shit, my $15/month has gone AWOL due my new mortgage. I've killed Tabula Rasa.

[Falconeer]

[Checking out the list of games released in 1988: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:1988_video_games

Wow.  Besides U5, it's MM2, Wasteland, Nobunaga's Ambition, Battle Chess, F-19, Pools of Radiance and more.  Countless hours of my childhood.  Even played that War in Middle-Earth game.

1988 is golden. Wasteland would be enough to make it the best year for CRPGs ever, but add to it some known faces from that list and, of course, Bard's Tale 3 and Mars Saga (most underrated CRPG ever in my book, first game from Eye of the Beholder's and Command and Conquer's Westwood Associates).

[Slyfeind]

JRPGs are a result of game designers in Japan ripping off artwork from Origin in the 80's. Garriott sued, they settled out of court, and thus Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy/etc were born.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm interested in the details...

SINCE I CAN'T FIND ANY OF THIS ON THE WEB. I strongly suspect we're going to be the top google result for some bizarre combination of final fantasy, origin, and "garriot" pretty soon.

Edit: Seriously, you'd think I'd have heard of this. The common story for the origin of Final Fantasy is that it was a game born out of desperation and Origin isn't mentioned anywhere near it.

I tried to find details too; I would have linked if I could. I suspect since this happened before the Internet was invented, then it can't be on the Internet or something. Like the butterfly effect and time travel. Be that as it may, here's the book I learned this from:

http://www.amazon.com/official-book-Ultima-Shay-Addams/dp/0874552281

[schild]

Ok, find the book and transcribe it. I'm sure you have it on your shrine with the lincoln log UO replica house and paper doll of your toon.

Edit: That was too easy, I apologize.

Edit 2: But seriously, find and transcribe that shit. I want to read it.

[Slyfeind]

And now I must find it in my OSI Shrine. >_< Yeah I'm surprised too. I figured this was common knowledge.

[schild]

It's not, and I'm still not buying it.

You do know that Wizardry was probably in development when Akalabeth and Ultima were in dev as well and that it was made jointly by a NY studio and 2 Japanese studios, right?

I mean, that's common knowledge. Also, I'd like to know which Japanese game designers ripped off artwork from origin and I'd like you to have words with Yoshitaka Amano who was doing that style of art before Garriot had plans to buy a sputnik let alone design an RPG.

[UnSub]

Vaguely related (to the OP, not Ultima vs JRPGs): NCsoft's Q3 2008 figures are out[/url]

Still not great. In rebuilding mode for all those MMOs they plan to release.

[Slyfeind]

You do know that Wizardry was probably in development when Akalabeth and Ultima were in dev as well and that it was made jointly by a NY studio and 2 Japanese studios, right?

Yep. If it weren't for Ultima, I'm sure Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest would have been first-person, and not top-down.

I mean, that's common knowledge. Also, I'd like to know which Japanese game designers ripped off artwork from origin and I'd like you to have words with Yoshitaka Amano who was doing that style of art before Garriot had plans to buy a sputnik let alone design an RPG.

The specific piece of artwork was, if memory serves, a picture of a merchant drawn by Denis Loubet, used in one of the Ultima manuals.

And yeah, I know it's terribly uncool to attribute anything to Garriott. Be that as it may, he did create a few things in his time.

[schild]

First of all, if it wasn't for Dragonstomper, not Ultima, FF and DQ might've been first person. MIGHT'VE. Megaten went the first person route back in the NES days. Dragon Warrior is basically a Japanese Dragonstomper. Final Fantasy is an entirely different animal.

Second of all, lol. I'm not buying this Denis Loubet shit, find it. Yes, I have practically every image from Japanese RPGs from that era scarred into my brain. As such, I have a keen interest in this.

[Ard]

Final Fantasy is an entirely different animal.

You're right.  Final Fantasy, the original one, stole alot of it's monster designs from dungeons and dragons.  A lot of games in that era did.  They weren't just strictly stealing from Origin.

[Nebu]

You're right.  Final Fantasy, the original one, stole alot of it's monster designs from dungeons and dragons.  A lot of games in that era did.  They weren't just strictly stealing from Origin.

... and D&D stole much of its design from fantasy literature and mythology.  I think I'm missing your point. 

[Ard]

You're right.  Final Fantasy, the original one, stole alot of it's monster designs from dungeons and dragons.  A lot of games in that era did.  They weren't just strictly stealing from Origin.

... and D&D stole much of its design from fantasy literature and mythology.  I think I'm missing your point. 

There were a handful that were fairly specific to dnd, that at best, had loose ties to lovecraft or mythology, like the mind flayer and beholder, which were pretty heavily adopted by alot of rpgs.

edit:  Went and looked up some info just to make sure I wasn't talking out my ass.  Wikipedia claims that both the beholder and mind flayer are very specifically considered part of the product identity for dnd, which probably came out when they went open source with 3.0.  So while TSR might not have sued anyone using them, WoTC/Hasbro might definitely.

[Ingmar]

You're right.  Final Fantasy, the original one, stole alot of it's monster designs from dungeons and dragons.  A lot of games in that era did.  They weren't just strictly stealing from Origin.

... and D&D stole much of its design from fantasy literature and mythology.  I think I'm missing your point. 

There were a handful that were fairly specific to dnd, that at best, had loose ties to lovecraft or mythology, like the mind flayer and beholder, which were pretty heavily adopted by alot of rpgs.

edit:  Went and looked up some info just to make sure I wasn't talking out my ass.  Wikipedia claims that both the beholder and mind flayer are very specifically considered part of the product identity for dnd, which probably came out when they went open source with 3.0.  So while TSR might not have sued anyone using them, WoTC/Hasbro might definitely.

The beholder, mind flayer, and some others were specifically excluded from the SRD, so they were never open content.

[WindupAtheist]

I had that Ultima book too. I don't recall it naming the company that was ripping off OSI artwork, but I do recall the story. The Garriots were in Japan, having some kind of business with this company, when the artwork in question came up right in their faces during the presentation for an as-yet-unreleased game. More than one piece of art, actually, and the poor presenter not knowing what the fuck to do. So I don't think any consumer would have seen it, no. Especially not one who was probably like five years old when this was going on.

The entire top-down, tile-based, walking around an overland map stepping on little miniature cities/castles/dungeons to enter, party represented by one guy until you enter a separate combat mode, stand on top of the little treasure chest icon to open it, towns full of NPCs that hork up their one line of dialogue when prompted, go into the Weapon Shop and buy the fighter a sword since it's better than an axe, style of RPG was pioneered by Richard Garriot in 1980 and was fully realized by the time Ultima 3 came out in 1983.

Anyone who can, with a straight face, try to tell me that series like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest don't owe a huge debt to Ultima is just being deliberately obtuse. Those guys would have come up with something fun regardless (this was, after all, the era in which I actually liked JRPG) but if there hadn't been Ultima, it would have looked totally motherfucking different. Dragonstomper my ass.

EDIT: As an aside not directly related to the discussion, I recall that same Ultima book describing how aggressive OSI was about going into the Japanese market, with several different Ultima manga series being produced, and billboards of Garriot in full Lord British nerd regalia going up. Even the aesthetics of the NES ports of Ultima 3 and 4 were pretty blatantly aimed at Japan, looking back. I kinda wonder if that's why UO did so well in Japan when it was released there. It was way the hell more popular in Japan than it ever was the US or Europe.

[Slyfeind]

This is the first I've heard of this Dragonstomper theory. Weird. Looks like a fun game, but I can't imagine why anyone would emulate that over Ultima.

[schild]

Some of the similarities between Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy and Dragonstomper are far closer to eachother than Ultima.

In fact, Enix credits Dragonstomper as the inspiration behind Dragon Warrior.

Edit: I'm fairly sure Dragon Stomper invented the turn-based battle system and random encounter systems that would be the love and bane of JRPGs for the rest of time as well.

[schild]

Here's a bit from Forbes magazine about it:

The best title ever made in the history of U.S. videogaming was DragonStomper. It will never be surpassed because games are no longer comprised of the labor and love of one person. Games no longer have the consistent vision of a single artist/programmer, nor the dignity to end with a finality to close off all sequels. Hats off to DragonStomper creator Stephen Landrum!

DragonStomper was innovative for its graphics (which are still charming today) and music cues. "Taps" played when the player was killed; "I'm in the Money" chimed out when booty was picked off a fallen foe. There were also multiple ways to solve problems. One could descend to the dragon's lair on a rope or simply jump down (and absorb some damage).

It was simple, due to Landrum's ingenious menu system, and infinitely replayable, due to randomized monsters and items. The game, along with the Supercharger memory charger needed to play it, was also a huge risk to produce. In today's conservative game-publishing environment, there is no way DragonStomper could have been done today, unless it was tied in with the Lord of the Rings franchise. Certainly, it wouldn't have been as well executed.

Menu system, randomized monsters, music cues, tiles that look like they were dropped from Dragonstomper into Dragon Warrior.

I don't know what to tell you other than, across the United States, some dude in New York (who I'm assuming knew the guys at Sirtech) basically gave birth to the JRPG.

[Venkman]

Jeezus, what the fuck was that "review"? That looks like something you'd say on release day 

Was that from Forbes or some dunk that sent a Letter to the Editor to Forbes?

[schild]

http://www.forbes.com/personaltech/2005/11/23/microsoft-xbox-videogames-cx_el_1123oldgames.html

I've never seen you come into a thread just to throw down snark. Did something break you, D?

[Slyfeind]

Sounds similar to what Gygax said when he was accused of ripping off hobbits for his halflings. "No really! I got the idea from someone other than these people who are suing me!" And the tiles from Dragonstomper look nothing like the tiles from Dragon Warrior. I don't know what to tell you, other than sometimes people lie for money.

You've got to be pretending to be all rose-eyed and altruistic here. Either that or you switched places with Darniaq!

[Venkman]

http://www.forbes.com/personaltech/2005/11/23/microsoft-xbox-videogames-cx_el_1123oldgames.html

I've never seen you come into a thread just to throw down snark. Did something break you, D?

See, had you posted the link (or I was arsed to look it up), I would have seen the part about the Atari 2600 and gotten the context.

My problem with the statement was the context, or for me, lack thereof. It sounded like fanboi frothing. But the article frames it nicely in a great nostalgia piece about how far things have devolved in the market that could push out the derivative "AAA" titles that were for the X360 launch. Their points about that I completely agree with. I do think though that the X360 "killer app" was the console itself though, with the framework for future integration that still has them lightyears ahead of Wii (which really doesn't seem to need to care yet) and still ahead of PS3 (though that gap could close in the next 12 months feature-wise). Basically, they were first with a system that years later the others are still trying to get right. Even if the games weren't the best, that counts for something.

However, it isn't the same as there being good notable labors of love that created entire genres unto themselves for an audience eagerly waiting for each one. Sure we could get into casual games and call match-3 or seek-and-find games a genre that is hugely successful (in that context, they are). And there's probably a Space Invaders in Bejeweled. But it doesn't feel like the same thing. Of course, Space Invaders didn't either.

Eh. Snark turned to directionless rant. Time for bed.

[schild]

/shrug

At this point I'm willing to split the difference since it's patently fucking obvious that Dragonstomper introduced the mainstays of the JRPG rather than Ultima, but Ultima (and by extension Akalabeth) obviously inspired Dragonstomper into existence.

1980 - Richard Garriott releases one of the first computer role-playing games, Akalabeth: World of Doom. This year also sees the release of Dungeons & Dragons Computer Labyrinth Game, the first computer game using the D&D license. as well as Garriott's Ultima I: The First Age of Darkness - a game that influences the RPG genre to this day.

1982 - The first Dungeons & Dragons console game is released for the Intellivision, simply titled Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Dragonstomper is released for the Atari 2600, widely considered to be the first console RPG. Dragonstomper included gathering experience points and gold, random battles, and multiple ways to solve problems in the game.

Though, it's possible Dragonstomper was inspired directly by D&D rather than Ultima as it was made by ONE dude, so it may have very well taken 2 years, which would predate Ultima. Impossible to know without straight up asking the guy though.

[Triforcer]

I personally think Conan created Jon.  Anyone who says otherwise is WRONG!

[WindupAtheist]

No resemblance. Clearly the latter is based on this below, and has nothing to do with that other game up there.



 

I had this whole series of "Talking to Lord British in his five-tile 'throne', talking to the King in Dragon Warrior in his five-tile 'throne' and such" comparative screenshots, but it seemed excessive.

[Bzalthek]

Stop killing the delusion that my childhood wasn't spent looking at that crap.  Stop it now.

[Slyfeind]

/shrug

At this point I'm willing to split the difference since it's patently fucking obvious that Dragonstomper introduced the mainstays of the JRPG rather than Ultima, but Ultima (and by extension Akalabeth) obviously inspired Dragonstomper into existence.

Actually I'd always assumed that JRPGs took the combat system more from Wizardry than anything else....  

[schild]

/shrug

At this point I'm willing to split the difference since it's patently fucking obvious that Dragonstomper introduced the mainstays of the JRPG rather than Ultima, but Ultima (and by extension Akalabeth) obviously inspired Dragonstomper into existence.

Actually I'd always assumed that JRPGs took the combat system more from Wizardry than anything else.... 

Some did. Some didn't. I mean, there's two distinct branches of early JRPG - Wizard/Megaten and Dragon Warrior/Final Fantasy - though the structures in the latter 2 are fairly different and megaten _eventually_ became far more like the latter 2 while Wizard nearly fizzled and died with a few strange exceptions and throwbacks.

[Rasix]

In 1982, Enix sponsored a national video game programming contest, which brought much of the Dragon Quest team together, including Yuuji Horii.[5] The prize of the competition was a trip to America, and a visit to AppleFest '83 in San Francisco, where Horii discovered Wizardry.[6] Koichi Nakamura and Yukinobu Chida, two other winners of the contest, along with Horii, released The Portopia Serial Murder Case for the Famicom for Enix. Sugiyama, already famous for jingles and pop songs, impressed with the group's work, sent a postcard to Enix, commenting on the software.[7] In response, Enix asked him to write music for some of their games. The group then decided to make a console role-playing game, using a combination of Wizardry and Ultima. Akira Toriyama, who knew Horii through Shonen Jump, was commissioned to illustrate the characters and monsters to separate the game from other RPGs of the time and the Dragon Quest "team" was born

Yay, Wikipedia. Hybrid of Ultima world design and Wizardry combat mechanics and stats.  Whether that dictates knockoff, influence, or whatever, I don't really see a point.  Early games influence later games.  

It was interesting as a child, having played both Dragon Warrior and Wizardry in that order.  Different experiences, but I was like 10 or 11.  It's been a while since then, heh.

[schild]

The earliest console RPG was Dragonstomper (1982) on the Atari 2600 [1] followed by Henk Rogers' The Black Onyx for PC-8801, released in December 1983 in Japan and distributed by his own company Bullet-Proof Software. It was the first RPG released in Japan and ported to numerous platforms such as SEGA's SG-1000.[7] Black Onyx would later be cited as the inspiration for Chunsoft to create the 1986 NES title Dragon Quest (called Dragon Warrior in North America (the series would retain that name until the 8th game in the series)).

/shrug

[WindupAtheist]

Okay seriously.

[UnSub]

1980 - Richard Garriott releases one of the first computer role-playing games, Akalabeth: World of Doom. This year also sees the release of Dungeons & Dragons Computer Labyrinth Game, the first computer game using the D&D license. as well as Garriott's Ultima I: The First Age of Darkness - a game that influences the RPG genre to this day.

1982 - The first Dungeons & Dragons console game is released for the Intellivision, simply titled Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Dragonstomper is released for the Atari 2600, widely considered to be the first console RPG. Dragonstomper included gathering experience points and gold, random battles, and multiple ways to solve problems in the game.

It's obvious that they just dumbed down a PC game for the console.

[WindupAtheist]

So your party of adventurers, represented by one figure, is trucking along the tile-built overworld map, occasionally fighting random monsters in a separate combat mode where you can see all your characters, when you realize that everyone is getting low on HP. So you walk to the nearest town, represented by a town-shaped tile on the map, and stand on it. Now you're on a separate smaller map of the city itself. You can exit back to the overworld by stepping back off the city map, but instead you go inside and look around for the inn. You walk up to the counter and talk to the innkeeper NPC. He asks if you want to pay a few gold to stay the night. You say yes, watch a few seconds of a little scene where your character falls asleep, then wake back up "the next day" with everyone's HP full again.

The first Dragon Quest won't be out for another year, the first Final Fantasy won't be out for two years, the NES is brand spanking new to American shores, and you're on your computer playing the fourth title in a series that's already five years old.

The seminal titles of the JRPG genre were basically "Japanese Ultima" and anyone that can say otherwise hasn't fucking played any of the games in question. Period. End of motherfucking story. If you don't think so then You Are Wrong.

[LC]

Wow this thread reeks of nerd. Let me ask a question... Which is the better captain, Captain Kirk or Captain Picard?

[Signe]

Captain Rex!

[Triforcer]

Since Riker said in that one episode that lasers can't penetrate their shields, that means a federation shuttlecraft could take a direct hit from the Deathstar since it fires a laser.