Random nerd thread unrelated to orig. topic. Current: Tanks vs Mechs!

[Merusk]

Have they fixed the noise problem on that thing yet?  Good god, I can still hear that droning, "Hey we're over here, SHOOT US" quasi-locust noise.

[Sophismata]

A good point has just been made in the leg vs no leg debate.  For all the talk about the inherently inferior design of leg, can't you see how this with guns :
[quadruped]
has a some advantages over this :
[treaded vehicle]

No, not really.

[WindupAtheist]

A good point has just been made in the leg vs no leg debate.  For all the talk about the inherently inferior design of leg, can't you see how this with guns :

has a some advantages over this :

Exactly what is this footage of a three-foot tall experimental test-bed of a logistics mule that isn't near being a finished product, isn't being considered for anything, and which isn't even intended to carry weapons by its designers supposed to have to do with anything?  Call me back after it's developed into a finished system, deployed, and racks up a positive service record. (It'll have to be a lot faster as well as able to cross ditches and such. So far all I see is something doing a slow and noisy job of navigating terrain a kid's go-kart could handle.) Then I'll conceed that legs can be useful on a small-scale logistical unit, which again is all this is.

Actually if you can get a walking machine to reliably climb stairs, you might want to use it as a drone to clear buildings and such. Assuming the whole drone thing ever really goes anywhere serious beyond aircraft, since the modern American "spend a billion dollars to avoid the bad PR of casualties" design ethic may be relatively humane, but it may also end up an anomaly, historicaly speaking. The Chinese will just throw a couple of guys in there, and if they get shot, well that's their job. The couple of guys will also do a better job than any robot.

Anyway, what the hell does any of this have to do with mechs? That thing is a DARPA science project that even in the designers wildest dreams isn't meant to trade fire with anything.

[Aez]

Legs are inferior in every aspects.  Don't you dare use a functional prototype in a argument about fictional mech.  Having a remote controlled  mobile legged turret that can go through mountains and jungles is completely useless.  China Zerg is unbeatable, their leg power is cheaper that any leg you could ever put on a robot.  We should all use wheel chair and 5 inch armor!!!


RRAAAAAGAGAGAGARAA!!!!


Also : move to politic?

[Triforcer]

CONDITIONER IS BETTER
IT MAKES THE HAIR SILKY AND SMOOTH

[IainC]

WUA is right. Walkers are stupid not because we can't make them work yet but because if we could make them work then the engineering advances would still be better employed in conventional vehicles. From a purely engineering viewpoint walkers are enormously inefficient because the walking motion requires power to move the lags in ways that don't directly correlate to vehicle motion. Raising and lowering the leg takes power and doesn't actually make the vehicle move forwards. Then there are all the other issues that have been pointed out - high CoG, small contact area to weight ratio, inherent weakspots that can't be easily protected and so forth.

As an example of how engineering advances don't make impractical vehicles any more practical, consider aircraft. With enough  thrust you can make anything fly. Anything at all. We can construct engines that are powerful enough to take pretty much anything we care to build into the air. We still make aircraft look like aircraft despite that. No flying mechs or aircraft carriers in the sky. Because it still doesn't make sense even though we *can*.

[Ratman_tf]

WUA is right. Walkers are stupid not because we can't make them work yet but because if we could make them work then the engineering advances would still be better employed in conventional vehicles.

Until we can build walkers, we won't know that for certain. We won't know anything for certain until/if we've got a 50 foot metal man stomping around. I'm quite sure the wright brothers didn't have any idea that modern aircraft would be anything like what we have today. They just built the damn thing. Anyone see any practical applications in their flying machine?

I tend to agree wtih WUA on the feasability of mechs in the real world. But I'm not going to pretend that I can predict the future. Much less get in a "That's stupid!" shouting match over one of the oldest internet arguments. 

[WindupAtheist]

Legs are inferior in every aspects.  Don't you dare use a functional prototype in a argument about fictional mech.

Especially when the "prototype" is in fact a three-foot-tall unarmed and unarmored experimental logistics mule that some ill-informed wanker is trying to apply to a discussion of multi-ton armored combat vehicles. I mean shit, get back to me when you even have an actual prototype to point at. Protip, a prototype and experiemental unit are two entirely different things. The YF-23 was a prototype, the X-29 was not.

I mean it's three feet tall, not intended for combat, and not even anywhere near the stage of being called a "prototype" by anyone who knows what the word means. What sort of reaction did you expect? Hint, DARPA will fund anything.

EDIT: I think we should have giant combat unicycles. Just huge 20-foot tall unicycles going around owning shit, because.. uh.. agility. Here is my prototype.



Concepts of scale, practicality, and even intended purpose are all irrelevant. Someone believed in it enough to build one, so it's a "prototype" and thus totally viable.

[Sophismata]

I never realised that this could generate so much heat. I mean, mechs are cool and all, but it seems fairly obvious that they'd have no practical use on a real battlefield - just from looking at basic physics.

[Merusk]

You mean basic physics that aren't taught to most High School students, and aren't a requirement for most college students?  Those basic physics?

[Aez]

We're not having the same argument.  I agree that giant mech are badly designed tanks. However, an improved mule robot could be useful with the weaponry used on a SWORD robot.  Legs could be useful if you are not talking about an heavy armored vehicle - it makes no sense has a tank replacement.

I'm having a laid back discussion on theoretical application of robotic legs and other sci-fi technologies in future warfare.
You're having an heart attack over a point pretty much everybody agreed on 3 pages ago.

Maybe you should post official rules for discussing "your" subject in this derailed thread before you go berserk over anyone not being educated enough to discuss it...  I'm not asking money to start up a mech factory in front of a board of investors for fucksake.

[Lantyssa]

Can you name the original mech that the Battlemaster was ripped off from is based on, though? (I knew but had to google the exact name and anime.)

Not with confidence.  It wasn't a show I've seen, and if I cared enough I know I could refresh my memory with a few minutes of research.  I want to say it's the same one the Revell line got the Condor and Griffen from.

Sadly, most of my favorite 'mechs were the ones from other shows and got pulled from the game.  I'm glad I was into the 3025/3050 era so I got to play with the cool 'mechs.

Edit:  Yes, Dave, I know the story of FASA and Battletech.  I used "ripped off" because they were originally part of another piece of media, not because of illegal usage.  Your word choice was confusing on the Marauder/Battlemaster, since you said one and showed the picture of the other.

[IainC]

We're not having the same argument.  I agree that giant mech are badly designed tanks. However, an improved mule robot could be useful with the weaponry used on a SWORD robot.  Legs could be useful if you are not talking about an heavy armored vehicle - it makes no sense has a tank replacement.

Right but you haven't put forward any of these advantages that you think a walker gun platform could have over a conventional vehicle. There are massive and numerous disadvantages that have been pointed out, you need to explain what the potential advantages are - especially now you're throwing the 'well obviously it won't be armoured' into the mix. An unarmoured combat drone is what most forces would consider a liability.

[Aez]

It can go everywhere, it even jumps if you watch the video.  Imagine what it could do with 10 years of development.  Add hands once the technology is there and it could probably climb trees (with an other leg system of course).  It's a great way to move a turret.  I'm no expert but it also seems you could put more armor/ammo/fuel than on a flying drone (I know -  less than on wheeled one.). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww&feature=related

[Slyfeind]

It also increases the NAF (Net Awesomesauce Factor) by over nine thousand! You can either have an effective military, or an AWESOME military. You can't have both. This thread proves it. Duh!!! The submarine is another invention that didn't have very clear military applications. You would be insane in the 1600's to think you could use it to fight wars.

[Sophismata]

You mean basic physics that aren't taught to most High School students, and aren't a requirement for most college students?  Those basic physics?

My bad. Physics was compulsory when I went to school.

[IainC]

It also increases the NAF (Net Awesomesauce Factor) by over nine thousand! You can either have an effective military, or an AWESOME military. You can't have both. This thread proves it. Duh!!! The submarine is another invention that didn't have very clear military applications. You would be insane in the 1600's to think you could use it to fight wars.

The submarine has always had a clear military application. Ships that are for all intents and purposes invisible? Which navy wouldn't want that? It didn't work in the 1600s because the technology wasn't capable of supporting the concept, not because no-one was interested. By contrast walkers are a terrible concept and not simply an idea we can't do properly yet.

[Sophismata]

Basically, if we can build walkers that work well, we can build tanks that work better.

[Ratman_tf]

EDIT: I think we should have giant combat unicycles. Just huge 20-foot tall unicycles going around owning shit, because.. uh.. agility. Here is my prototype.



Concepts of scale, practicality, and even intended purpose are all irrelevant. Someone believed in it enough to build one, so it's a "prototype" and thus totally viable.

The future of warfare.

[Ratman_tf]

Can you name the original mech that the Battlemaster was ripped off from is based on, though? (I knew but had to google the exact name and anime.)

Not with confidence.  It wasn't a show I've seen, and if I cared enough I know I could refresh my memory with a few minutes of research.  I want to say it's the same one the Revell line got the Condor and Griffen from.

Yep. Fang of the Sun Dougram. The Battlemaster was called the Bigfoot. Revell got the rights and called them Robotech before the cartoon came out.

[Ratman_tf]

Basically, if we can build walkers that work well, we can build tanks that work better.

Better at what? Walking?

[schild]

Basically, if we can build walkers that work well, we can build tanks that work better.

Better at what? Walking?

Walking doesn't win wars.

This conversation is too nerdy to get myself involved in.

[Slyfeind]

Here's you people in your tanks: "Vroom vroom! We will come upon you rather slowly and shoot you when we get there!"

Here's me in my giant robot: "I have jumped over your tanks and kicked them over. Except these three here which I shall juggle."

Garriott would be happy that a discussion about him has turned into tanks versus mechs.

[Fordel]

Did the tank crew forget to bring ammo for their giant gun or something? 

[Hindenburg]

The mech cut the sabots mid air with it's giant jet-powered katana. Duh.

[Ratman_tf]

Basically, if we can build walkers that work well, we can build tanks that work better.

Better at what? Walking?

Walking doesn't win wars.

Tell that to the slog foots. The doughboys in the trenches. The duckfoots. #1. piece of advice to the solider in Vietnam was to take care of his feet.... and stuff.

This conversation is too nerdy to get myself involved in.

Too late. The mech discussion devours all, like talking about Star Wars Galaxies.

[schild]

Tell that to the slog foots. The doughboys in the trenches. The duckfoots. #1. piece of advice to the solider in Vietnam was to take care of his feet.... and stuff.

This is a shit argument.

But then, the entire tank vs mech discussion is built on shit theorizing anyway. >_<

[WindupAtheist]

You know you want to just leap in, Schild. You know it.

[Merusk]

Here's you people in your tanks: "Vroom vroom! We will come upon you rather slowly and shoot you when we get there!"

Why were the tanks out there alone, unsupported?  Hell, these days you'd have had missiles hitting your big building-sized radar blip from 30 miles away before you even saw the tanks.

Why am i getting involved in this.  

[Ratman_tf]

Here's you people in your tanks: "Vroom vroom! We will come upon you rather slowly and shoot you when we get there!"

Why were the tanks out there alone, unsupported?  Hell, these days you'd have had missiles hitting your big building-sized radar blip from 30 miles away before you even saw the tanks.

Because my mechs took out your radar and missile sites before we sent in the tanks.

Just wait until we deploy the jedi dragonriders!

Why am i getting involved in this.  

 

[schild]

You know you want to just leap in, Schild. You know it.

Not a chance. This is far too into nerdgasm neckbeard Jain Zar territory.

[Ghambit]

So (assuming you THINK wheeled is better than mecha), why not design a 10 meter mech that rides a 6 meter giant Segway!?  Do you know any TANKS that can ride a Segway?  I think not.   The mech can just jump off and hide behind a 3 story building if needed also.  And when the Segway runs out of battery he can still walk.

Regardless, in an urban environment the Mech would win over the tank anyways.

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, the mech will have a much lower target profile after it falls through the streets and lands in the sewers.

[Hindenburg]

Not if the tank can fly. And hover. And Boost. And Overboost.
Seriously, FromSoft settled this debate ages ago.

[Ghambit]

Yeah, the mech will have a much lower target profile after it falls through the streets and lands in the sewers.

At least it can get out once it does.
Tanks = stuck