SWTOR

[Threash]

Some notes from the live panel at NYCC

- 15 dungeons at launch, with end-game hard modes. (because fuck lore)
- No LFD feature yet
- Visual change with morality path is in, but won't affect the look or actual ability of skills used.
- Release date moved up to 12/20/11

Wasn't 12/20 the only release date they have given?

[Fordel]

I would say SWTOR is ahead of WoW in a lot of ways already, none of which we can talk about of course.  


But the lack of a proper LFD tool is going to be a big issue, especially if they are wanting to eat up some of those WoW sub numbers.

[Velorath]

Some notes from the live panel at NYCC

- 15 dungeons at launch, with end-game hard modes. (because fuck lore)
- No LFD feature yet
- Visual change with morality path is in, but won't affect the look or actual ability of skills used.
- Release date moved up to 12/20/11

Wasn't 12/20 the only release date they have given?

It's now the release date for Europe as well.  It was originally going to launch in Europe two days later.

[caladein]

But the lack of a proper LFD tool is going to be a big issue, especially if they are wanting to eat up some of those WoW sub numbers.

I don't think it's a huge deal early on just because you'll probably have players all over the level range for some time (plus the generally high numbers that come with launch).  A few months in though, it really needs to have it, especially with a game that seems this alt-friendly.

[Fordel]

It's just LFD is so much better then spamming general for the most part.

[Morfiend]

I'm still looking for someone who is planning on playing on a PVP server with their guild that I could possibly tag along with.

Anyone?

[Amaron]

I don't think it's a huge deal early on just because you'll probably have players all over the level range for some time (plus the generally high numbers that come with launch).

A lot of people don't like setting up groups.   It's still a huge flaw to not have LFD and they need to patch it in really fast.

[Rokal]

It needs to arrive in the first two months. After a large amount of people have gotten to the level cap, grouping will be the primary end-game again and forming groups manually won't stand for long.

[Fordel]

People are going to want to group up well before level cap probably too.

[Velorath]

LFD isn't really a grouping tool though. It's a tool specifically for grouping up to do dungeons, which is fine if you've got a game people have been playing for a long time who want to bypass all other content and grind through instances over and over, but I don't think it's the kind of thing you want at launch when you want to encourage people to explore, and do quests and stuff.   They need good tools for putting together groups (which I thought they said they were working on based on beta feedback).

[Rokal]

People are going to want to group up well before level cap probably too.

That's true, but the amount of time you spend grouping for dungeons compared to questing or whatever will be much lower before the level cap. Leveling in Rift (as the most recent example), I probably do about 4-6 hours of questing for every 30 minute dungeon I run. When I get to the level cap, that ratio will completely reverse. I can overlook no LFD tool for leveling dungeons at launch because I'm generally not spending a whole lot of time trying to run the dungeons. Forming a group manually isn't convenient, but it's also not hard during the first 1-2 months when thousands of other players on my server are also leveling through the same areas.

After the majority of the players have reached the level cap, they'll look to group content to fill their game time. Spending 1/2 of each game session manually putting a group together will no longer cut it. Players will progress out of the leveling zones, and whoever started playing late will have a much tougher time finding a group for the leveling dungeons.

I don't think missing a LFD tool at launch is catastrophic, but it will be a serious problem after the first month or two. We'll see just how aggressive Bioware can be about patching in new features.

[kildorn]

It's just LFD is so much better then spamming general for the most part.

This. LFD type tools make "I want to do an instance" into a trivial level of effort. Click button, go about your thing.

Hanging out in *whatever wide chat method they have where your level folks would be hanging out* requires either moving over there, or constantly reading the spam. It's ::effort::, the level of which depends on the chat system setup.

[Lantyssa]

I'm still looking for someone who is planning on playing on a PVP server with their guild that I could possibly tag along with.

Anyone?

My other guild is PvP, but they only take Texans.  Can't remember where you're from.

[Margalis]

My other guild is PvP, but they only take Texans.  Can't remember where you're from.

Joke post?

[Furiously]

What if I speak Texan Japanese?

[sinij]

I'm still looking for someone who is planning on playing on a PVP server with their guild that I could possibly tag along with.

Anyone?

My other guild is PvP, but they only take Texans.  Can't remember where you're from.

Do you also have to swear to uphold core conservative values before they let you in?

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Oh please do not get me started on the writing in that game. The meagre sliver of humour I managed to inject into my previous snarkiness will be consumed in a giant flaming pyre of contempt.

I don't think we can be friends anymore. 

Aw. Actually, at the risk of attempting to have a nuanced opinion on the Internet, it's specifically the plotting and decision-tree-related writing -- the sort of thing that one might reasonably think could be 'spoiled' -- that is so terrible and predictable. The character writing and dialogue is usually quite good, but the plots? The so-called 'moral' decisions, etc.? Barf.

If all the quality is in characterization and dialogue, that just sounds spoiler-proof to me. The garbage that passes for plot in all-Star-Wars-of-my-experience is so genre-predictable it's hard to imagine what a spoiler would even look like.

[Lantyssa]

I don't know, nor really care why.  I'm in it partly because an old friend wanted me to join, and partly for other reasons.  Totally self-serving reasons.

[Surlyboi]

Oh please do not get me started on the writing in that game. The meagre sliver of humour I managed to inject into my previous snarkiness will be consumed in a giant flaming pyre of contempt.

I don't think we can be friends anymore. 

Aw. Actually, at the risk of attempting to have a nuanced opinion on the Internet, it's specifically the plotting and decision-tree-related writing -- the sort of thing that one might reasonably think could be 'spoiled' -- that is so terrible and predictable. The character writing and dialogue is usually quite good, but the plots? The so-called 'moral' decisions, etc.? Barf.

If all the quality is in characterization and dialogue, that just sounds spoiler-proof to me. The garbage that passes for plot in all-Star-Wars-of-my-experience is so genre-predictable it's hard to imagine what a spoiler would even look like.

[Sjofn]

Yeeeeah I am lead to believe that at the time, that was a pretty big "omg."

[Evildrider]

SWTOR NYCC Main Panel, if anyone else is interested.

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Ha ha, okay, good point. Since then it seems to have all been downhill, though.

[Ingmar]

Just in KOTOR 1/2 alone:


Maybe lots of those things are predictable, and maybe some of them aren't that interesting to you, but knowing them without experiencing them in-game - even the ones I can see coming - would still significantly diminish the experience for me. Because sometimes, you're wrong about what you predict. Spoilers suck away all the joy of a story, even a mediocre one.

EDIT: And let me add that predictability is not automatically a negative. Foreshadowing is a perfectly legitimate literary tool, after all.

[stray]

This game should have Revan in it..

And finish the fucking story. 

[Ice Cream Emperor]

Spoilers suck away all the joy of a ... mediocre ... story.

Took some doing, but FIFY.

I admit my memory of the specifics of KOTOR's plot is fairly sketchy, but certainly the first one on your list there is just bleargh in its badness. Not to mention vaguely the same thing as Baldur's Gate 2, unless I am misremembering (I never finished BG2, I don't think), in the sense of 'we must invent shit to explain why significant amounts of time never passes but you get so badass so quickly' plus 'you are the chosen one' destiny bullshit plus 'here is our lazy excuse to give you exposition whenever we want so you will do the next thing we want you to', etc. etc. Just so lazy.

Really my whole experience of KOTOR etc. is somewhat tainted by the sinking sensation when I realized that Planescape: Torment was a fluke -- that or the guy in charge of Planescape wasn't actually the reason it was good, and whoever was the reason had since been fired or moved on elsewhere.

[Ingmar]

There's so much wrong there I don't even know where to start ( ), but I will point out one thing:

Bioware: BG1, BG2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, NWN, Dragon Age 1/2, Mass Effect 1/2
Interplay/Black Isle/Obsidian: Fallout 1/2, Planescape, Icewind Dale 1/2, KOTOR2, NWN2, Alpha Protocol, Fallout: New Vegas (there was some significant personnel turnover between Fallouts 1 and 2 I believe)

Different groups of people entirely.

And no, there is no twist in BG2 like the one in KOTOR. Arguably in BG1, sure. BG2's big 'twist' is


Can I ask, perhaps, for an example of storytelling in an RPG that you don't consider "lazy"? What constitutes effort to you? And perhaps you could spell out for me exactly how the Nameless One isn't just as special a 'chosen one' sort of character as any of the others?

[koro]

And no, there is no twist in BG2 like the one in KOTOR. Arguably in BG1, sure. BG2's big 'twist' is

FTFY  

[eldaec]

For sake of myself and the other WoW refuseniks, am I right to assume LFD is just the WoW implementation of Lost Dungeons of Norrath?

[Sjofn]

I have no idea what that is, so I cannot help you!

[Evildrider]

Looking For Dungeon grants the ability to put yourself and your party members in a queue for a random dungeon.  It looks for people that will round out your group then teleports you straight to the dungeon entrance.  

The bolded part is why they have not implemented it in SWTOR according to the panel today.  They want people to explore the worlds instead of just teleporting magically all over.

[Rokal]

I actually appreciated that feature in Rift at launch. Having to manually go to dungeons made them feel like a bit more of an adventure and gave you some idea about what the story of the dungeon was. Again though, it's not something that can last past the first or second month. Once you've found the dungeon and ran to it a few times, you understand what the context of the dungeon is and having to go to it manually after that point is just a hassle.

I'm not entirely opposed to a system where you always have to manually travel to the dungeon. I think it makes the world more believable, and increases everyone's investment in each group that is formed. I just don't really think it can stand in a mass-market MMO at this point.

[Evildrider]

I don't mind the travel, but at least all the Flashpoints and Operations launch from your sides fleet location.  So it's not like you have to go to a planet then travel to get there.

[stray]

I just don't really think it can stand in a mass-market MMO at this point.

And what can stand? It's all fail. Unless it has a Blizzard name on it.. in which case, even a stinking turd is win (not to say Blizzard necessarily makes stinking turds.. but they could if they wanted to).

I don't know if it's asshole-ish for me to butt in and just say "Go play something else." Over 300 pages on this shit. Really guys?

[caladein]

For sake of myself and the other WoW refuseniks, am I right to assume LFD is just the WoW implementation of Lost Dungeons of Norrath?

"LFD" usually means an automated matchmaking system for dungeons.  Players open up a window and select the role(s) they are willing and able to play as determined by their class and specialization: Tank, Healer, Damage, or occasionally Support.  The player is then allowed to select the dungeon(s) they wish to queue for (or a random dungeon from an appropriate set).  Which dungeons are available for selection is usually determined by both a minimum level and gear level.  A maximum level may also be in place.

Usually there are incentives in place for choosing "random" and for the first N times the player completes a "random" dungeon in a certain period of time (e.g. first of the day, first seven in the last seven days).  Adds features to groups such as a "vote kick" while removing the ability for the (nominal) leader to simply remove players at will.

Two other features that are often a part of this system are: a) the ability for players to be matched-up across server lines and b) the ability to be teleported directly to the dungeon (finding the dungeon in the world may or may not be a requirement to queue for it) and to return to where they were upon completion of the run or dissolution of the group.

[eldaec]

So it is cross-server LDoN from EQ, fair enough.

Yeah, can't see why you wouldn't put it in, if they think travel in their world is so fucking great they can always make you travel to a specific wayfarer dude to get access to a particular dungeon type. Pretty sure that's how the original EQ implementation worked anyway.