SWTOR

[Lantyssa]

That community of players, those...freaks...at SWTOR (and I guess you?) are never going to be satisfied.

And they're all buying the game, regardless.

[UnSub]

They have to build on that base, but that's enough to start.

If SWOR's base costs US$150m or so, that's a lot to pay back PLUS add in new content to flesh it out.

[Paelos]

They have to build on that base, but that's enough to start.

If SWOR's base costs US$150m or so, that's a lot to pay back PLUS add in new content to flesh it out.

That's a sunk cost. You can't try to make expectations based on that money in the present. What you can do is make the best product possible so that it gets good press on release. The worst thing you can do is get impatient and release it before it's ready because the investors are clamoring for money. A hasty release would effectively kill this game.

[Lucas]

Two things:

- First, a rumor about SWTOR being released in September (hence, delayed):

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/42719/Old-Republic-out-in-September

Georg Zoeller (Principal Lead Combat Designer) on auto-attack (or lack of thereof) in SWTOR:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5288350#edit5288350

At this point in development, the combat design of Star Wars: The Old Republic does not include an auto attack feature and the flow of combat is designed around this fact.

A number of associated facts to help your discussion:

- Basic attack sequences in Star Wars: The Old Republic generally consist of multiple blaster bolts or strikes, so you don't click-spam attacks. We call these attacks 'flurries'.

- The actual number of flurries during a basic combat cycle against a normal creature is generally low, we try to put an emphasis on special attacks instead.

- As a result, an auto attack feature becomes unnecessary, since you chain few flurries together and often switch up your combat routine to deal with emergent issues during a fight.

- You can definitely shoot on the run (or backpaddle and shoot on those following you).

Fine print: We reserve the right to change this design, like any other, based on feedback from those currently in Game Testing and potentially from community commentary. At this point, such a decision seems unlikely however, as testers have been commenting very favorably on this aspect of the combat system so far.

Thanks for reading.

[Paelos]

So it's not auto-attack. It's pushing a button to engage in a series of attacks that cannot be changed. 

[Ingmar]

So it's not auto-attack. It's pushing a button to engage in a series of attacks that cannot be changed. 

It's a filler attack, just like City of Heroes. People liked that combat generally, seems good to me.

[Koyasha]

I hated that about CoH, so this sounds pretty bad to me.  But eh, I imagine I'll slog through the combat either way, it's not like combat has been what's interesting me about this title anyway.

[Lantyssa]

I liked CoH combat, so that doesn't bother me.

[Paelos]

I never played CoH, so I'm unsure.

[Rasix]

It should work out OK.  CoH's combat wasn't an issue I had with it.  MMO combat shouldn't be long enough in most situations for it to really matter.  If it starts to bug me outside of "boss fights" then the game very likely has combat pacing issues.

[Sjofn]

I also liked CoX's combat, so I am cheerful about this as well.

[Kageru]

It sounds like the CO model where your basic attack key would chain together a bunch of animations in a repeating cycle. So doing "psy-blade" 4 times would produce a sequence of moves and slight differences in damage. And you could of course stop the cycle at any point to do something else. That would be in keeping with their desire to have "cinematic" looking combat without actually innovating in any way. That said CO did put the basic attack on auto-repeat once people realised the amount of time they were spending spamming the attack button.

Did CoH do the same? It's been a while.

[Ingmar]

You can make abilities in CoH autocast (I think from release?) including stuff like punch. I don't know anyone who does it for non-buffs though.

[UnSub]

You can pre-load a CoH/V ability so that it activates when the right circumstances hit and I'm aware that some people did some incredible things with the inbuilt macro system.

CoH/V's problem was rooting during certain powers, which was something that was wound back quite a bit.

[Sjofn]

You can pre-load a CoH/V ability so that it activates when the right circumstances hit and I'm aware that some people did some incredible things with the inbuilt macro system.

CoH/V's problem was rooting during certain powers, which was something that was wound back quite a bit.

I was a DARKITY DARK DARK defender (her name was Gothic Poet <3) and the original heal animation would root me forever.

And usually miss. 

[Zetor]

re COH: Setting a basic fast recharging low-damage attack to auto was nice when playing a tanker/brute (esp. a brute, since it ensured a steady flow of fury) to maintain aggro. Other than that, the best use was probably medium-cooldown long-duration buffs like Hasten.

You could also set a PBAOE heal to auto... if you wanted everyone to ridicule you 

[Lantyssa]

I was a DARKITY DARK DARK defender (her name was Gothic Poet <3) and the original heal animation would root me forever.

And usually miss. 

I slotted it with soooo many to-hits because of that.  It was an amazing heal power though.  DDDs are still one of my favorite concepts for a class.

[tmp]

lead dev: stepping on people's balls after they die in a game is kinda stupid
players: but we really, really want some sweet ball stomping action

[Nevermore]

CoH/V's problem was rooting during certain powers, which was something that was wound back quite a bit.

Originally, every power with an animation rooted you, because by default the game engine didn't let you move while a power was animating.  Game balance wasn't considered with respect to animation (and thus, self rooting) when the game was first developed, which is why animation times on powers were such an inconsistent hodge-podge for such a long time.  Over the years, a lot of this has been cleaned up and rectified; there aren't very many long-lasting animation roots anymore.

As for SWtoR, I'm in the camp that likes not having an auto-attack.  I hope they don't make the same mistake CoX did and leave you stuck in place for those 'flurries', though.

[Surlyboi]

lead dev: stepping on people's balls after they die in a game is kinda stupid
players: but we really, really want some sweet ball stomping action

Jesus, people are stupid. Granted, I think most modern MMOs go way too easy on players, but the shit some of those posters want is fucktarded. There's a huge difference between challenging and just plain abusive.

[Sheepherder]

Granted, I think most modern MMOs go way too easy on players, but the shit some of those posters want is fucktarded.

Horseshit.  I've heard the risk / reward argument reformulated dozens of times, and it's almost invariably wrong.  Death penalties only encourage the player to be death-adverse, which is absolutely the wrong fucking way to go.  There's a reason why every modern single-player shooter has quicksave and quickload.

You're going to bring up Eve next.  Which is not really an argument, because Goonswarm hands out battleships like sweet, delicious candy.

[Reg]

Every thread of this type seems to have its player stuck in some bizarre 1998 time warp where running naked through zones full of monsters to recover your equipment was the funnest thing ever to do after each death.

Between that and the posts by semi-literates who write "u" for "you" I'm very glad that up until now I've avoided the official SWTOR forums.

[Kageru]

How easy you can go on players is determined by how deeply into the pool of available and potential players you need to mine. Given SWTOR's budget they're not going to do anything that will discourage even a small portion of their playerbase.

[Koyasha]

Granted, I think most modern MMOs go way too easy on players, but the shit some of those posters want is fucktarded.

Horseshit.  I've heard the risk / reward argument reformulated dozens of times, and it's almost invariably wrong.  Death penalties only encourage the player to be death-adverse, which is absolutely the wrong fucking way to go.  There's a reason why every modern single-player shooter has quicksave and quickload.

This is probably true for a lot of people, but I disagree in my own experience.  Rather than being more likely to try crazy awesome things when I pay almost no penalty for death, I find I no longer care enough to bother.  Pulling off some ridiculous feat in EQ as my bard, and seeking out ever more ridiculous feats to pull off was something pretty common for me back then, but in games with less death penalty I don't seem to bother.  The time I swarmkited a good part of the Plane of Fire - after spending hours and several dozen deaths trying - was awesome.  On the other hand I recall a time in WoW when a fel reaver caught me off guard, but I managed to kill it.  What I remember most is the ridiculous sensation of, after I finished killing it, thinking 'meh, it would have taken less time to die and run back' rather than 'that was awesome!'

However, this is purely anecdotal and I can't even say for sure it's the death penalty or lack thereof that influences me in this manner, so eh.

The part about encouraging grinding and safe, efficient leveling is absolutely true though, since I know that back in EQ the one basic rule to leveling at a reasonable pace was: no matter what, don't be dying a lot.  Which absolutely meant to do your leveling only at safe campsites where you were really unlikely to get killed unless you screwed up significantly.  Well, until around mid-to-late Planes of Power where every cleric and their baby alt had a res stick so it didn't matter anymore.

I wouldn't mind some xp penalty.  Not a huge one like EQ used to have, but just enough to sting.  Unfortunately that amount would differ depending on each individual player, and what one considers just enough to sting would be a huge penalty to another, and insignificant to a third.  I think that's the biggest problem with instituting any kind of significant death penalty.  What is 'significant' without being too big is very subjective because it's a matter of pure player perception.

But in the end I expect they're going to try to make it look like they have a meaningful death penalty to appease those who want one, while at the same time having no practical penalty because that is what's most viable market wise - and given the impossibility of setting up a death penalty that feels the same to everyone, I think may actually be the best gameplay choice in the end, at least for the largest segment of players.

[Malakili]

 What I remember most is the ridiculous sensation of, after I finished killing it, thinking 'meh, it would have taken less time to die and run back' rather than 'that was awesome!'

I hear ya.   I've been playing some Champions Online again since free to play and there are a lot of instanced missions.  Most of these things have a door back out to the main world at the end of them, but for whatever reason some of them don't.  Generally after I finish the mission if there are any enemies left but no door at the end, I'll just get myself killed so I respawn at the front door faster.   Nooootttttt really all that heroic feeling.

[Surlyboi]

Granted, I think most modern MMOs go way too easy on players, but the shit some of those posters want is fucktarded.

Horseshit.  I've heard the risk / reward argument reformulated dozens of times, and it's almost invariably wrong.  Death penalties only encourage the player to be death-adverse, which is absolutely the wrong fucking way to go.  There's a reason why every modern single-player shooter has quicksave and quickload.

You're going to bring up Eve next.  Which is not really an argument, because Goonswarm hands out battleships like sweet, delicious candy.

Fuck, in EVE I fucking hand out battleships like sweet, delicious candy. But no, I'm not going to bring that up. And I still stand on my take that there's no death penalty in any games these days and that's not a good thing. I'm not saying somebody should get nut stomped, but if you do something exceedingly dumb, you should be slapped in the back of the head and told "that was exceedingly stupid, try not to do it again." I'm not advocating corpse runs, but I'd totally be for a little sign over your character's head that says "dumbass" for 20 minutes or so.

[Lucas]

Today's update is still not up, but it should be about the so called "Flashpoints". Gamespot published an exclusive video (don't be fooled by the lenght; it's roughly a minute and half followed by 3 minutes of black screen, lol) and an interview with World Designer Jesse Sky on the same subject:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/starwarstheoldrepublic/news.html?sid=6287811&mode=previews
---

Now, Tabula Rasa failed and all that, but I see a few ideas TR had (or planned to have) now implemented in TOR:

- Flashpoints in TR were basically the same thing The Old Republic is doing, albeit a lot more polished and complex;
- Choices and consequences inside flashpoint and in quests; tailored storylines, feeling much more like a co-op single player experience;
- in the last 4-5 months of development, Starr Long talked an awful lot about implementing henchmen that you could bring with you in missions and flashpoints, and the possibility of outfitting them (akin to customizable companions, bar all the usual Bioware storylines);

Garriott is still baby jesus, in other words.

Yeah, I'll stop now.

[eldaec]

Granted, I think most modern MMOs go way too easy on players, but the shit some of those posters want is fucktarded.

Horseshit.  I've heard the risk / reward argument reformulated dozens of times, and it's almost invariably wrong.  Death penalties only encourage the player to be death-adverse, which is absolutely the wrong fucking way to go.  There's a reason why every modern single-player shooter has quicksave and quickload.

You're going to bring up Eve next.  Which is not really an argument, because Goonswarm hands out battleships like sweet, delicious candy.

Goonswarm isn't really relevant.

The only death penalty in EVE is your ship, and the entire economy of EVE is based around the idea that you should be able to replace what you fly. The only cases that isn't true are where the risk is obvious to the player at the outset and massively cheaper equipment is almost always available that is 90% as effective or whatever.

[Sky]

lead dev: stepping on people's balls after they die in a game is kinda stupid
players: but we really, really want some sweet ball stomping action

Love the schub. And really, here's to hoping dev teams have the strength to ignore the forum drama. Has anyone really avoided or quit a game because it didn't have enough death penalty? Versus people I know who have (me, EQ1, fuck you de-leveling mechanic combined with shit soloing).

Also, the average mmo player is a total fucking retard. But we all know that.

edit: I also enjoyed the hell out of TR, they just didn't have much meat to the game and made some really bone-headed prelaunch changes that removed a lot of the fun factor (see my earlier quote) With the amount of content and varied systems TOR is already putting in, grabbing some ideas from TR is not a bad idea at all.

[Lucas]

Flashpoint official update:

http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/flashpoints

Same video posted above, but also a short description of some other flashpoints we'll undertake in the game.

[SnakeCharmer]

WTF...Yoda....really?

[Surlyboi]

Vandar, didn't you play KOTOR?

[UnSub]

WTF...Yoda....really?

SWOR is Star Wars: Greatest Hits.

[SnakeCharmer]

Vandar, didn't you play KOTOR?

is that who that is?

I never played kotor.  Guess I probably should at some point.

[Lantyssa]

I hope the story is good, because combat and the animations still look terrible to me.