SWTOR

[Velorath]

I can go through the last several pages/months of your posts and not find a single positive post about anything.

You sure?

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=17478.msg861534#msg861534
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=19156.msg850697#msg850697

Dur dur dur. Well that took all of 5 seconds.

Actually what I meant to say in those posts above is that Shattered Galaxy sucks ass and Michelle Pfeiffer has sharp knees.

Maybe you can photoshop your avatar so Dirty Harry is sticking the Magnum in his mouth, because I honestly don't know how you manage to get up in the morning and face a world you obviously hate.

Why do I think you love Star Wars? Uh, because you are super defensive about Star Wars? Because now you're suggesting I should commit suicide because I don't share your taste in shitty genre fiction? Get a grip dude. You turn apoplectic whenever anyone dares hate on Star Wars, so yeah, I think you love Star Wars.

Take a step back. This is bizarrely personal and you're becoming unhinged. At what point did suggesting suicide strike you as a reasonable course of action in a Star Wars video game thread?

Star Wars is serious business.

1) Yes, well done, you like Michelle Pfeiffer and a game from a decade back.  Next time I see her, I'll be sure to tell her Margalis from the Internet is a fan of her work.

2) Feel free to call me a Bioware fanboy, but I've never had any special fondness for Star Wars.

3) Yeah, suggesting a change to your avatar to make it look like Dirty Harry is contemplating suicide is totally the same as suggesting you kill yourself.  Totally.

4) I'm fairly disappointed in how FFXIV turned out.  I also think it's safe to say that I gave it more of a chance than most of the people posting in that thread considering I told someone that it wasn't helpful to simply write the game off as just being "clownshoes" without at least taking a good look at some of the good aspects of it.  I also mentioned that if not for SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 presumably coming out next year, I'd probably check into the game again for the PS3 launch.  I took the time to play through the first two tiers of story for one of the starting areas, and the first tiers of each of the others.  Despite my extreme disappointment in their recent work, I've been following Square since FF1 on the NES.  I actually imported a decent amount of FF merchandise from Japan back during the PS1 days and bought virtually every game they released up until the PS2 era.  For several console generations they could be considered the other developer I was a fanboy of, to the point where even now, I give a lot of their stuff a fair chance.   I think most of the post-launch sniping I did was directed at Geldon, and some directed at Square in general.  This is actually a game I wanted to like, especially when they had started giving details on it (when Fileplanet was giving out beta keys, I was constantly checking the site on my phone at work until I was able to get one).  I wouldn't have bothered torrenting files when the updater wouldn't work, just to play something I wasn't interested in.

[Margalis]

1) Yes, well done, you like Michelle Pfeiffer and a game from a decade back.  Next time I see her, I'll be sure to tell her Margalis from the Internet is a fan of her work.

Oh hey, what a surprise, backtracking already. I must have missed the part of your post where you mentioned that actresses and old games didn't count. (Man, SWTOR discussion is so riveting that we've turned to debating whether or not liking Michelle Pfeiffer counts as liking something.)

What exactly is the purpose of a pre-release thread like this one? Info? You can always visit the website if you care. The only reason for a thread like this to exist is for opinion and speculation. (Ok, that's two reasons) To claim that negative opinions and speculations are shitting up the thread is absurd. I think most people get this and it's been explicitly pointed out multiple times.

What does a non-shitty version of this thread look like? A debate about which Star Wars character is the coolest? We can't even debate or theory craft because the details are all so vague. The PVP is "yes, we will have PVP." What's to discuss exactly? Is it possible to have an informed, intelligent discussion on "we will have space combat."

This is like someone teasing a book by releasing a picture of the cover, people say it looks bad and are then chastised for judging a book by its cover. In this case the cover is a photo of a piece of wonder bread. So yeah, I think "looks generic" is a reasonable position.

The last page or so of posts has probably "shitted up" this thread more than anything else and you're as guilty as anyone. What the fuck does someone think coming into this thread to read about SWTOR and they get one guy telling another guy to photoshop his avatar into a guy committing suicide because liking Shattered Galaxy isn't reason enough to live?

[Typhon]

[snip]The only reason for a thread like this to exist is for opinion and speculation.[/snip]

[snip]What does a non-shitty version of this thread look like?[/snip]

I agree - stating an opinion is all any of us can really do, especially since the game hasn't even been launched.  Re-stating (any) opinion, again and again and again, stops being a conversation and starts being a campaign - don't get defensive, I'm not following this thread enough to know whether you are doing it or not. 

I know that by-and-large many folks get their entertainment lolz via bickering with semi-strangers, but I personally find that much less interesting then hearing everyone's opinion ONCE.  Don't like it? Ok, why?  Ok, let's move on.  It's ok to move on since this is all opinion and no opinion's are "right" - someone having a different opinion should be a breath of fresh air, instead it's frequently treated as a personal attack or indication of mental deficiency.

A good version of this (or any) thread on this site would be one where posters state their opinion two or three times at most, ideally with each reply conveying some new information.  If you don't have anything new to say and you want to post anyway because you are bored, try to be funny.  ... but that's just my opinion.

Example totally not based upon this thread or anyone posting in this thread:  Someone repeating that they think the animations are ass helps a conversation how?

[FieryBalrog]

And at least 5 companion npcs per class, plus Bioware-style dialogue. Those features being the two that interest me the most, personally.

Story and dialogue don't scale. That's why good single player games are 20-40 hours long which in MMO / subscription terms is nothing.

Pretty much this. From what we've been shown so far, the game IS WoW, plus voice acting and the standard Bioware "morality meter" dialogue pablum.

The problem is getting the "story" bit to work in an MMO setting. There is no way they are going to churn out story content fast enough for it to be like an "endless single player RPG". They're going to have to gate it and dole out tiny dollops of actual story (not just "find me ye olde bear asses" with voiceover...) in reward for grinding your way through it. FFXIV is doing something very similar, which is of course the least of its problems.

Given that they've seriously suggested that re-rolling to play through another class story is a major activity at "end-game", I feel like they're counting on launching with enough story for each class, but have no confidence in their ability to churn out additional stuff at a fast enough clip.

[WindupAtheist]

Why do I think you love Star Wars? Uh, because you are super defensive about Star Wars? Because now you're suggesting I should commit suicide because I don't share your taste in shitty genre fiction? Get a grip dude. You turn apoplectic whenever anyone dares hate on Star Wars, so yeah, I think you love Star Wars.

Oh yeah, well how about you go fu--

*cough*

Sorry, reflex. Carry on. I basically agree with you regarding this thread, but I'm still going to repost my old Margalis version of KOTOR.

[Reg]

Needs more androgynous big-eyed pre-teens.

[Kageru]

Pretty much this. From what we've been shown so far, the game IS WoW, plus voice acting and the standard Bioware "morality meter" dialogue pablum.

This game is Diku. Assuming that it will automatically be as good as WoW is dangerous. And given the gameplay videos so far I remain sceptical. Indeed their focus on story is a wonderful environment to miss all sorts of other important details that make MMO gameplay long-lived without becoming excessively tedious.

[Paelos]

Pretty much this. From what we've been shown so far, the game IS WoW, plus voice acting and the standard Bioware "morality meter" dialogue pablum.

This game is Diku. Assuming that it will automatically be as good as WoW is dangerous. And given the gameplay videos so far I remain sceptical. Indeed their focus on story is a wonderful environment to miss all sorts of other important details that make MMO gameplay long-lived without becoming excessively tedious.

Here's an example quest that would illustrate my concern with voiceovers. They may sound good, but if they lead to the same quests we always do, it's not really a good feature.

YOU: Trooper, reporting for duty, sir!
CAPTAIN: At ease Trooper, I see you've assembled a team. That's good, because you're going to need all the help you can get. We're running out of time at this outpost. New intel coming in from HQ says that the Sith have established a front-line base here on this planet, and they are planning a full-on assault of our position within days. We need to cripple their operations to buy ourselves more time for reinforcements to arrive.
YOU:    1 - What do you need us to do, sir?
           2 - How does this involve my team?
           3 - I better be getting paid for this.
CAPTAIN: We have isolated three possibilties to get into the Sith base thanks to our scouts. They have secured a shipment of smuggled explosives to the east, which we could use to blow open the gates. Our scouts also discovered several Sith uniforms we could use to sneak into the base undetected. Also, we have intel that there is an infrequently used back door to the complex, but we have no idea how well it is guarded once you get inside. It's up to you to choose which way you want to get in.
YOU:    1 - I like action, I'll blow open the doors.
           2 - Give me the uniforms, they'll never see us coming.
           3 - I prefer to enter from the rear. Giggity.
CAPTAIN: Alright, before we get to that though, you have to make sure your team is adequately equipped for the mission. We need supplies for the frontal assualt once you manage to get inside and open the gates. I need you to go collect 10 supply packs from the local populace over that hill, by any means necessary.
YOU: Wait, I thought we were about to go kick ass?
CAPTAIN: Soon, but these supplies are totally important, hop to it Trooper!
YOU: ...

[Shatter]

If you are a Sith can you do that quest and come back and force choke the dam quest giver?  That might make the 10 kills worth it. 

[Nija]

Someone with some spare time needs to code a greasemonkey script that will ignore individual posters in individual threads. I'll put up $50 through paypal towards this goal.

[Pezzle]

If there is a voiced Giggity option this is a must buy.

On a more serious note, I hope the crafting works out.  Resource grinding has always killed crafting for me.  A system where my crew gets most everything I need automagically?  Yes please.  A system like that would still allow for rare drop or encounter specific items to be incorporated.  Anyway, here is to hoping.

[Rendakor]

Someone with some spare time needs to code a greasemonkey script that will ignore individual posters in individual threads. I'll put up $50 through paypal towards this goal.

I think someone tried this once, and it didn't end well.

[Lantyssa]

It ended fine.  Just one poster getting offended over my joking about ignoring everything another ever said, as if it would impact either of them.  It was an interesting little bit of code they wrote which let me learn how to do a useful javascript function in pages outside the boards, so helpful even.

I do appreciate the last few pages illustrating why throwing nothing but a little fluff out there far to early is a bad way to promote one's game.

That the game has been shown at PAX, E3, and other conventions with barely a murmur doesn't really speak well to being the DIKU-clone to close the gap with WoW.  We'll have to see though once we can get our hands on it.  Since there's a gripe about positivity, I'll say it's unlikely to be as bad as FFXIV.  So there's that.

[Paelos]

Since there's a gripe about positivity, I'll say it's unlikely to be as bad as FFXIV.  So there's that.

F13, keep that sunshine to yourself!

I have high hopes for SWTOR pulling me away from WoW. I like the setting, I like the class ideas, and I like the DIKU gameplay if it's done properly. I like that they are including battlegrounds, and that they have considered the idea for afk resource gathering. Having companions heal will be a major boost to the group model instead of forcing us to find specific classes. All that sounds wonderful. Still, I don't think we're being "trendy" or "hip" for discussing the concerns of where they are putting their resources in a game, given that we understand how an MMO player approaches the challenges presented.

[DLRiley]

Its not like a story based mmo can't work, its just that SWOTR reasons for it working registers a big meh at best and lolz you retarded at worst.

[Ginaz]

I think we'll see a lot more info regarding this game after the WoW expansion releases or sometime in the early new year.  EA might have been holding back info because they were worried Blizzard might "borrow" some of their ideas fro TOR like they did, albeit to a limited degree, with WAR.

[Ingmar]

Given that they've seriously suggested that re-rolling to play through another class story is a major activity at "end-game"

I have absolutely zero problem with this idea personally.

[Paelos]

Given that they've seriously suggested that re-rolling to play through another class story is a major activity at "end-game"

I have absolutely zero problem with this idea personally.

I have a huge problem with this idea personally. Have at you! 

[sam, an eggplant]

The game still isn't even in closed beta. They've been holding a series of very small strictly content and time-limited newbie area tests with 100 participants apiece for six months now. I'd guess that under 7500 people outside of EA/Bioware have played it total.

I've got my creds, I posted on usenet and the lumboards obsessively hating on Abashi during my extended EQ burnout. I'm just as jaded and cantankerous as any of you fuckwits, and more than most. I was in one of those limited SWTOR tests, and while it's obviously under NDA, I can say that I'm looking forward to playing the closed beta, if I'm lucky enough to get in. So there.

[Ingmar]

I have a huge problem with this idea personally. Have at you! 

Yeah. As you are saying, essentially, the core problem with these threads, despite all the other slapfighting going on about other topics, is simply that no game can be everything to everyone. All the other crying/fighting/trolling/doomsaying stems from that, IMO. We can argue all we want about knowing not enough or what we know being "generic*" or the marketing starting TOO SOON EXECUTUS but ultimately the central argument is just the MMO version of red state/blue state. People like what they like and never the twain shall meet.

*IMO perhaps the most useless, dare I say, generic, criticism ever leveled at an MMO.

[Paelos]

I think that's true, and if it's not for me it's not for me. I just don't want them hiding the fact that it's not for me by not telling me enough. Just fly your freak flag high, SWTOR, and don't try to be everything to everyone.

[Lucas]

Darth Hater heroically posted part 2 of their interview with Daniel Erickson about Crew Skills (a bit more details):

http://darthhater.com/2010/11/17/daniel-erickson-on-crew-skills-continued/page/1

You can also check out the first part of the interview on video, with the same developer overviewing the system (and with the interviewer apparently trying to force-choke herself to death at the end :D) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRmJxHQdZfY

[UnSub]

Darth Hater heroically posted part 2 of their interview with Daniel Erickson about Crew Skills (a bit more details):

http://darthhater.com/2010/11/17/daniel-erickson-on-crew-skills-continued/page/1

Key questions that reinforce to me that BioWare don't make good game systems:

By including an offline component to crafting, will new players six plus months out be at a disadvantage or will there be a system in place to deflate the time values of old content like in other MMOs?

I don't think the parallels really make sense because it is the same thing for any crafting system you have in any game -- crafting takes time. In ours, crafting an individual item takes even more time than in most games so you can do it offline. At the same time, you can be online and ignoring it. But you have to remember your companion is doing it and you're not doing it. So there really is not a difference in the person who shows up day one as a new player, who obviously can't craft what you can craft because you were doing it for six months. You are going to know far more recipes and far more skills -- you are going to be way down the line. They are going to be at the very first beginning levels of it.

How do you the player craft in Star Wars: The Old Republic? Are there recipes you loot or you learn from other people in the galaxy?

Daniel Erickson: The beginning stuff you do when you learn a crafting skill... you get a number of recipes. There are also recipes that you can discover out in the world. There are recipes that are very rare. One of the important overall goals that we haven't talked about Crew Skills is that there will be "go to" people. You will be able to craft items that are the top tier of things in the game. It is going to be very possible that there are only one or two people on the server who know how to craft specific things. There is a whole lot of discovery involved.

The Crew Skills system is a place for everyone -- whoever wants to play can come play. The missions system is super accessible, and even if you aren't into crafting, you can play with those. People who want to be a master at crafting -- and really want to be those who are the go to people on the servers -- they are going to put a ton of work into it. We're not going to talk quite yet about how you get some of these recipes but suffice to say, they will be in demand as crafters and it will not be something you can casually do.

[DLRiley]

Darth Hater heroically posted part 2 of their interview with Daniel Erickson about Crew Skills (a bit more details):

http://darthhater.com/2010/11/17/daniel-erickson-on-crew-skills-continued/page/1

Key questions that reinforce to me that BioWare don't make good game systems:

By including an offline component to crafting, will new players six plus months out be at a disadvantage or will there be a system in place to deflate the time values of old content like in other MMOs?

I don't think the parallels really make sense because it is the same thing for any crafting system you have in any game -- crafting takes time. In ours, crafting an individual item takes even more time than in most games so you can do it offline. At the same time, you can be online and ignoring it. But you have to remember your companion is doing it and you're not doing it. So there really is not a difference in the person who shows up day one as a new player, who obviously can't craft what you can craft because you were doing it for six months. You are going to know far more recipes and far more skills -- you are going to be way down the line. They are going to be at the very first beginning levels of it.

How do you the player craft in Star Wars: The Old Republic? Are there recipes you loot or you learn from other people in the galaxy?

Daniel Erickson: The beginning stuff you do when you learn a crafting skill... you get a number of recipes. There are also recipes that you can discover out in the world. There are recipes that are very rare. One of the important overall goals that we haven't talked about Crew Skills is that there will be "go to" people. You will be able to craft items that are the top tier of things in the game. It is going to be very possible that there are only one or two people on the server who know how to craft specific things. There is a whole lot of discovery involved.

The Crew Skills system is a place for everyone -- whoever wants to play can come play. The missions system is super accessible, and even if you aren't into crafting, you can play with those. People who want to be a master at crafting -- and really want to be those who are the go to people on the servers -- they are going to put a ton of work into it. We're not going to talk quite yet about how you get some of these recipes but suffice to say, they will be in demand as crafters and it will not be something you can casually do.

Most people play Star Wars games in order to craft pink lightsabers of varying crappyness 

[Paelos]

After those responses I really really want to ask them, do you have a timesink for people who play MMOs for 30-40 hours a week?

[sam, an eggplant]

I think what you mean to ask is "what is the elder game".

It feels like they've been incredibly slow releasing info but again-- they aren't even in a real closed beta yet.

[Lakov_Sanite]

That interview tells me that crafting is going to be a huge fucking time sink. Sure you won't need to be online to make something but combines are going to be taking hours.  I mean the line that in other games it'll take 40 hours to craft, makes me wonder what fucking games they are playing. Just seems like they are trying to soften the cockblock

[Chimpy]

That interview tells me that crafting is going to be a huge fucking time sink. Sure you won't need to be online to make something but combines are going to be taking hours.  I mean the line that in other games it'll take 40 hours to craft, makes me wonder what fucking games they are playing. Just seems like they are trying to soften the cockblock

Well, if you go solely by time spent sitting at the bench making shit to level up, I bet it took me 40 hours of time in Aion to get to max crafting level. But that is total time spent in all tradeskills, and I maxed three tradeskills. (and that game was all about time sinks)

[tmp]

Darth Hater heroically posted part 2 of their interview with Daniel Erickson about Crew Skills (a bit more details):

http://darthhater.com/2010/11/17/daniel-erickson-on-crew-skills-continued/page/1

Amongst other things it has explanation for that five spots at the crafting table thing that was wondered about earlier in the thread:

To be clear, you can have up to five companions working on a crafting table. You can have up to five companions working on different crafts, and have other companions out on mission skills or doing something else like missions for gathering. Crafting limits at five, but Crew Skills you could have everyone going at once because crafting for us is one third of Crew Skills. But you can have one companion out who will trail around and follow you in the world.

More than five companions for a player, that's quite a bunch.

[Draegan]

Gotta catch em all.

[sam, an eggplant]

That really is a ton, since each class has its own unique companions and they're bioware-style companions with their own subplots, conversations, etc.

[Malakili]

After those responses I really really want to ask them, do you have a timesink for people who play MMOs for 30-40 hours a week?

Yeah, this is a central question I haven't seen answered yet.  I mean, even if the story is worth playing through for EVERY CLASS in the game  you'll still have people "finished" after a couple months, and probably a lot less.   Not that you need to have enough content to keep those kinds of players happy over the long term, but you should have MECHANICS that keep those kinds of players happy for the long term.

[Lakov_Sanite]

That really is a ton, since each class has its own unique companions and they're bioware-style companions with their own subplots, conversations, etc.

  yes, one almost wonders if they are promising more than they will deliver.

Also, as to people who wanna play 20-30 hours a week? Well FF14 had the solution of play another class/alt and you see how well that works. Honestly i think swtor's biggest problem is going to be that their players are going to eat through all their "awesome storyline" content within weeks or they are going to put artificial cockblocks into levelling/content.   It's very telling that the developer says that playing 10 hours a week he'd never be done, nobody plays single player games for 10 hours a week(ok but its a minority of players)

[Velorath]

It's very telling that the developer says that playing 10 hours a week he'd never be done, nobody plays single player games for 10 hours a week(ok but its a minority of players)

A recent study from NPD had the average gamer playing 13 hours a week (with no distinctions made between single player or multiplayer) in 2009.

[Malakili]

It's very telling that the developer says that playing 10 hours a week he'd never be done, nobody plays single player games for 10 hours a week(ok but its a minority of players)

A recent study from NPD had the average gamer playing 13 hours a week (with no distinctions made between single player or multiplayer) in 2009.

My guess that people also underestimate just how much they can play.  I think a lot of people remember a time when they could play ALL DAY if they wanted to, and now even if you play 2 hours a day that feels like "nothing" but even that is an hour more than the average you referenced there.