SWTOR

[Ginaz]

My point is that the very idea of mass producing lightsabers is fucking clownshoes. A jedi makes one lightsaber, it's their lightsaber, even in kotor this was the case.  Actually having some schlub producing sabers in his discount saber depot is beyond retarded.

Knowing WTF you're talking about helps a lot when discussing a topic.

[Nebu]

My point is that the very idea of mass producing lightsabers is fucking clownshoes. A jedi makes one lightsaber, it's their lightsaber, even in kotor this was the case.  Actually having some schlub producing sabers in his discount saber depot is beyond retarded.

Knowing WTF you're talking about helps a lot when discussing a topic.

Apparently I don't know what I'm talking about either.  I agree with Lakov. 

This conversation is giving me flashbacks to DAOC's god-awful system. WTS 112332123 98% quality bows that I made trying to get one masterpiece... /wrists

I was thinking the same thing. 

A crafting system should allow for improvements and upgrades.  I'm guessing the reason that crafting systems haven't been more fleshed out in MMOs is because MMO gamers are interested in primarily in combat and exploration.  It's just not worth the resources to develop a robust crafting system when your player base would be equally happy with a pull on a one-armed bandit that dispenses gear.   

[Malakili]

My point is that the very idea of mass producing lightsabers is fucking clownshoes. A jedi makes one lightsaber, it's their lightsaber, even in kotor this was the case.  Actually having some schlub producing sabers in his discount saber depot is beyond retarded.

Knowing WTF you're talking about helps a lot when discussing a topic.

Apparently I don't know what I'm talking about either.  I agree with Lakov. 

Yeah, he'd be right if that is how it worked at all.

[Nebu]

Yeah, he'd be right if that is how it worked at all.

After reading THIS ARTICLE, I really didn't get much out of their system beyond hype.  I'd be delighted if you wanted to educated me beyond what the article said.

[Malakili]

Yeah, he'd be right if that is how it worked at all.

After reading THIS ARTICLE, I really didn't get much out of their system beyond hype.  I'd be delighted if you wanted to educated me beyond what the article said.

Wait, are we talking about crafting lightsabers in TOR or Galaxies?  I was under the impression that Surlyboi was specifically relating his experience from galaxies.

[Lantyssa]

We've been talking SWG.  No one knows how it'll work in SWTOR.

[Malakili]

We've been talking SWG.  No one knows how it'll work in SWTOR.

Ok, thats what I thought.

[Nebu]

I was trying to get things back on topic.  I know... craziness.

[Paelos]

I was trying to get things back on topic.  I know... craziness.

The problem with this topic is that we're still talking about something that won't come out until April, and the updates for actual documented gameplay and info are glacial.

[Shatter]

I was trying to get things back on topic.  I know... craziness.

The problem with this topic is that we're still talking about something that won't come out until April, and the updates for actual documented gameplay and info are glacial.

It wont be out in April :P

[sam, an eggplant]

It's still not (really) in beta. No chance in hell it releases in April.

[Surlyboi]

No. It'll be out in April. Just probably not this upcoming April.

[Nebu]

Since when has "Not ready" kept an MMO from being released on time?

I see a miracle patch in the works!

[Soln]

we need to pre-mortem this

[Spiff]

You're new around here so I'll cut you some slack.  Resources in LOTRO are abundant, be it wood or ore.  Crafting is one of the funnest parts of LOTRO.  Maybe you haven't played recently but crafting has been improved even further and every profession is useful.  Crafted gear is on par with dropped items as well.

Don't feel like you have to go easy on me mate, but: some basic resources in LoTRO are and always have been abundant, however to make top tier items you always needed a special ingredient; be it the shards at first, mithril with Moria and then the symbol to craft legendary weapons with Mirkwood (and that is about as recent as my experience is, from having played LoTRO first soon after launch).

It's mostly these rare components that require an unholy amount of farming (or at least they each did when they were relevant) and which in some cases are considered even more valuable than the items crafted from them.
On top of that every item you craft goes through a random roll to end up 'critted' or not (although since they added crafting guilds there is an alternative, yes), if your luck fails and it doesn't crit you might as well toss it in Mount Doom.

More than all of this though, the fact that all it takes to level crafting is a huge pile of resources and time ensures that resources were always more valuable than crafting itself. Used to be you had to complete quests to level up a crafting tier as well, but they stopped that after the first 3 or 4 tiers.

As far as crafted gear being on par with drops, whilst levelling certainly (it's often superior) at endgame however there are only a few items that can compete with dungeon/raid items, especially since they started gating content with radiance which does not occur on crafted items.
Didn't use to be so, but Moria took it in that direction.

Go play WoW and see which game 'revolves around resources' more.  Nodes in WoW are much more uncommon than in LOTRO.  Hell, my party is always peeling off to go chop wood or dig ore on our way to the quest area in LOTRO.

I don't think I ever made a comparison between the two, I wouldn't dare, considering my experience with WoW is limited to what other people have told me about it (yes, I'm the one MMO geek that never played it).
Doesn't change the fact that the most lucrative part of crafting in LoTRO was gathering resources for as long as I've played (and that's quite some time).

May you and your party enjoy chopping wood for many years to come, I know I did.

Just in case someone else read this and is thinking: "give me back the flippin' minute of my life I just wasted!", sorry for the derail, but 'tis the thread for it after all ...

[tmp]

My point is that the very idea of mass producing lightsabers is fucking clownshoes. A jedi makes one lightsaber, it's their lightsaber, even in kotor this was the case.

In KotOR though you could at any time you were near a workbench disassemble the thing and swap crystals for extra damage, stick in some upgrades etc. I take it in SWG you'd have to build new one from scratch, instead.

Not that it makes more sense but well, computer games. Sense being optional and all that.

[Sjofn]

This conversation is giving me flashbacks to DAOC's god-awful system. WTS 112332123 98% quality bows that I made trying to get one masterpiece... /wrists

hinge
hinge
hinge
hinge
hinge
hinge

[Surlyboi]

My point is that the very idea of mass producing lightsabers is fucking clownshoes. A jedi makes one lightsaber, it's their lightsaber, even in kotor this was the case.

In KotOR though you could at any time you were near a workbench disassemble the thing and swap crystals for extra damage, stick in some upgrades etc. I take it in SWG you'd have to build new one from scratch, instead.

Not that it makes more sense but well, computer games. Sense being optional and all that.

Well, in later iterations of the SWG lightsaber system, you could swap out crystals. When it first started though, once you crafted it, you were done.

[Kageru]

SWG's idea of having multi-valued components leading into multi-faceted output was good for giving crafting depth. But it was also the main contributor to near crippling data-base bloat from storing all those items?

WoW's crafting model is fine as long as you remember crafting is mostly about utility or consumable objects (and maybe a couple of levelling items) and existing as an adjunt to adventuring. Blizzard have no interest in dedicated crafters but in pretty much everyone doing some crafting for themselves.

[UnSub]

One thing that seems at odds is how they want a casual players to be able to outfit themselves through crafting, but then restrict the same players to single gear crafting category. Just doesn't leave much room for that outfitting oneself...

It's all theoretical. You CAN craft to outfit yourself, but the reality is you'll have to depend on drops / the market for the full package.

Funnily enough, this offline crafting system is super-alt-friendly. I'm sure BioWare will lock crafting requirements behind story, but if you set your alts to gathering, crafting of each type, etc you could feasibly fit out your main without relying on other players. That said, it seems like BioWare is going down the path of offering some kind of bonus if you use other people's items as a way of forcing the market, so it all depends on execution.

[Merusk]

SWG's idea of having multi-valued components leading into multi-faceted output was good for giving crafting depth. But it was also the main contributor to near crippling data-base bloat from storing all those items?

WoW's crafting model is fine as long as you remember crafting is mostly about utility or consumable objects (and maybe a couple of levelling items) and existing as an adjunt to adventuring. Blizzard have no interest in dedicated crafters but in pretty much everyone doing some crafting for themselves.

It would have been good for crafting depth IF you could only learn a maximum number of patterns.  Wow, a whole economy where low level or casual crafters could feed higher skilled ones subcompenents.  What a concept!

 Instead it created a fiddly system where it took too many steps to make simple shit that didn't require the stat fiddling.  Like houses.  Lots of sub-components make sense if every Architect couldn't make every required parts.. but they could.  So instead, the sub-components just created more button pushing for the sake of button pushing.

[Lantyssa]

SWG's idea of having multi-valued components leading into multi-faceted output was good for giving crafting depth. But it was also the main contributor to near crippling data-base bloat from storing all those items?

I think it was more poor code and not having a programmer devoted to nothing but DB work.  The live team had even less support, and twenty masters.

[tmp]

It would have been good for crafting depth IF you could only learn a maximum number of patterns.  Wow, a whole economy where low level or casual crafters could feed higher skilled ones subcompenents.  What a concept!

Considering how quickly the low level zones turn into ghost towns as the bulk of players moves upwards, that probably wouldn't end too well. Same with the casuals i think -- if they dabble then that's not very reliable component source plus even casuals advance in their crafting levels over time.

You'd likely wind up just with poopsockers running multiple lowbie alts to cover their needs. And complaining how retarded the crafting system is while they do that. 

[Paelos]

Until we get a combination of varying resources and mini-games that involve actual skill, crafting diversity is impossible.

[Margalis]

It sounds like crafting and missions are mutually exclusive to some degree. Not sure if this is a good thing.

[Merusk]

It would have been good for crafting depth IF you could only learn a maximum number of patterns.  Wow, a whole economy where low level or casual crafters could feed higher skilled ones subcompenents.  What a concept!

Considering how quickly the low level zones turn into ghost towns as the bulk of players moves upwards, that probably wouldn't end too well. Same with the casuals i think -- if they dabble then that's not very reliable component source plus even casuals advance in their crafting levels over time.

You'd likely wind up just with poopsockers running multiple lowbie alts to cover their needs. And complaining how retarded the crafting system is while they do that. 

I was addressing SWG in particular, with one char per acct. and "levels" in a skill being of your own choosing.  No, such a system wouldn't work in a Diku, but making crafting mandatory/ relevant in a Diku is always clownshoes.  Your best mats and patterns will wind-up being rare drops off of endgame spawns (even if it doesn't start that way) and your crafters will bitch endlessly that they have to be raiders as well. 

[Reg]

Nobody is actually expecting TOR to be a good crafting/economic game are they? Because that'd be crazy.

[Nebu]

Nobody is actually expecting TOR to be a good crafting/economic game are they? Because that'd be crazy.

 

[Paelos]

Nobody is actually expecting TOR to be a good crafting/economic game are they? Because that'd be crazy.

They better focus on it, because the story-based bullshit they keep touting ain't gonna keep the fans logged in.

[Reg]

Oh yes of course. I'd forgotten momentarily that the game was doomed.

[Paelos]

Oh yes of course. I'd forgotten momentarily that the game was doomed.

Not doomed. Shallow.

[DLRiley]

I find it funny that a Star Wars game discussion becomes a 3 page crafting discussion given the right derail, except it isn't a derail because most people play Star Wars games in order to craft pink lightsabers of varying crappyness  

[Reg]

Not doomed. Shallow.

I bow to your secret insider knowledge of the game.

[Paelos]

Not doomed. Shallow.

I bow to your secret insider knowledge of the game.

Let's put it this way. They just don't seem to be discussing the gameplay, and the small videos they've shown make people go "meh" because it's typical MMOG diku gamplay. They highlight classes, they highlight companions, they talk about the settings, they talk about offline features and crafting, they talk about names of classes, and "story-driven-gameplay."

Bottom line it for me. What am I logging in to do? What's keeping me playing for 10-15 hours a week? Are we pvping? Are we raiding? Are we doing new scripted events added each month? Fuck, who knows. Promises are a dime a dozen, and they aren't even doing that. Right now, until we get more information I consider the game to be very shallow from what little they've described. There's two ways to look at that. The first would be to say that it's overly critical to judge a game on such little information. The other side is to look at this from the mindset of a typical MMO gameplayer and think "Oh fuck, they aren't talking about X..."

[Reg]

Right. When they release information like saying the game is "story based" the game is doomed.  When they don't release information the game is also doomed.

I can play jaded old MMO vet with the best of them but you people carry it to extremes.  It's boring.