SWTOR

[DLRiley]

BioWare talks smack to other MMO developers: "MMOs had no fun and no point... until we came along! Story story story!"

I'm sure there is some saying about something happening right after pride, but I can't quite remember it.

I can respect what SWOTR is trying to do. I play rpg's for 2 reasons story and strategy, and something labeling itself as mmorpg should deliver that not water it down or hide it under a bunch of backwater game design. At least from a pve perspective anyway Unfortunately SWOTR is tagging online "epic" story with copy and paste mmo game design just the same way recent mmo's tagged "next gen combat" to copy and paste mmo game design (age of conan, chronicles of spellborn) . This is a hard sale for me paste a free trial, you can't sell me star wars IP because that's nothing but guys with robes and laser swords to me. Can't sell me an mmo because your going full hellgate london. Maybe being on sale and a 3 week trial might due the trick lolz.

[LK]

I admire what they are trying to do to, but I wish they didn't come off as "Bioware is about to make you its bitch." with their marketing message and interviews.

They are setting people up for a fall worse than any Sith (or John Romero) could experience.

[palmer_eldritch]

Half the fun in an MMO is showing off your character and messing around with other players, which has little to do with a pre-written story. One "story" I remember in WoW was when a friend and I were playing Horde characters and when I went off to pick up a quest, he made friends with an alliance character (they did silly emotes to each other). I got back to my friend, saw the alliance character and killed him. My friend then explained what had happened while I was gone.

It may not seem like a great story but it I remember it fondly. I couldn't tell you any of the backstory to any of the quests I did or dungeons I went in.

[DLRiley]

Actually the half the fun in an mmo is looking back and going "did I just survive that" and talking shit about it.

[Malakili]

Actually the half the fun in an mmo is looking back and going "did I just survive that" and talking shit about it.

Actually, half the fun of an MMO is bashing it on f13.

[LK]

There are a lot of halves to fun.

[Fordel]

Knowing is half the battle?

[Kageru]

They're so cute and innocent... like little kittens frolicking on the train tracks. They really need to get some Jaded MMO gamers in there and see what they think of their story, how long it takes them to blast through the content (and write spoilers) and the holes they find in game balance.

Alternatively they've given up on the existing MMO people and are trying to convince the star wars fan's and single player RPG fan's that they are different from all those other nasty MMO's.

[DLRiley]

Actually the half the fun in an mmo is looking back and going "did I just survive that" and talking shit about it.

Actually, half the fun of an MMO is bashing it on f13.

Actually that's 99% of the fun in playing a shitty mmo...which most mmos are 

[Ratman_tf]

Star Wars: The Old Republic will finally bring real story to the genre.

First time I've heard that promise! 

[Nebu]

Yes, because MMO gamers care so deeply about the story.   

[Ollie]

I admire what they are trying to do to, but I wish they didn't come off as "Bioware is about to make you its bitch." with their marketing message and interviews.

I agree. Snarky and antagonistic seems to be the new preferred method of selling the Bioware Experience^tm, and it's not really working for me. Sure, CVG probably scoured the interview transcript for the most provocative bits they could find and planted them blissfully devoid of context as classy mags often do, but even so, that was weak. The only vaguely interesting bit in there was the one about challenging sacred cows, and even that is straight out of "Designing for Dummies 101".

I don't know about you guys, but I've had it with all this fourth pillar talk. It's as if Bioware has Alzheimer's and keeps forgetting we've heard the same spiel regurgitated over and over again. Please, for sanity's sake, talk about something else already. Or, better yet, show it.

[Velorath]

BioWare talks smack to other MMO developers: "MMOs had no fun and no point... until we came along! Story story story!"

I'm sure there is some saying about something happening right after pride, but I can't quite remember it.

Alternately, you could have titled that quote as "Bioware agrees with what a lot of what many on F13 have said about MMO's, but we have to tear them apart anyway because being jaded and cynical about MMO's still hasn't gotten the least bit old  and repetitive after over a decade of doing it".

[Margalis]

I don't think that [MMO creators] set out in the beginning to say: 'Hey, let's make this a grind. Let's not have any interesting content here.' A lot of the better ones more recently have interesting content for the first few levels, you know - and some of them for the first 20 levels, whatever.

The thing that has been a challenge for us on Old Republic is that people tried to convince us these limitations were canon - that they were to be respected, you know? That you could not, in fact, put interesting bits in an MMO because that was now sacrilege.

I'm sorry what?

[Ollie]

The idea in the latter quote is sound, even if Erickson does his best to smear it by douchy delivery. Of course challenging preconceived notions and questioning sacred cows is important, no matter what you're designing. What's funny is that this is coming from Bioware, the company that keeps making its one staple RPG over and over again, and built its reputation on delivering polish instead of innovation.

Unless you count actually delivering polish as innovative, of course. 

[Merusk]

Unless you count actually delivering polish as innovative, of course. 

You do in the MMO-space.

[Velorath]

I don't think that [MMO creators] set out in the beginning to say: 'Hey, let's make this a grind. Let's not have any interesting content here.' A lot of the better ones more recently have interesting content for the first few levels, you know - and some of them for the first 20 levels, whatever.

The thing that has been a challenge for us on Old Republic is that people tried to convince us these limitations were canon - that they were to be respected, you know? That you could not, in fact, put interesting bits in an MMO because that was now sacrilege.

I'm sorry what?

Try reading back through the last 100 pages of this thread and make a list of every time somebody says something along the lines of "MMO players don't care about story.  It's stupid to put so much emphasis on it".

[Malakili]

BioWare talks smack to other MMO developers: "MMOs had no fun and no point... until we came along! Story story story!"

I'm sure there is some saying about something happening right after pride, but I can't quite remember it.

Alternately, you could have titled that quote as "Bioware agrees with what a lot of what many on F13 have said about MMO's, but we have to tear them apart anyway because being jaded and cynical about MMO's still hasn't gotten the least bit old  and repetitive after over a decade of doing it".

Sort of.  There is a lot of criticism of MMOs being pointless and a lot of times not fun here, but there solution offered has rarely or never been "hey, lets make it more like a single player game."   I don't want a single player game, I want a GOOD MMO game.

[UnSub]

BioWare talks smack to other MMO developers: "MMOs had no fun and no point... until we came along! Story story story!"

I'm sure there is some saying about something happening right after pride, but I can't quite remember it.

Alternately, you could have titled that quote as "Bioware agrees with what a lot of what many on F13 have said about MMO's, but we have to tear them apart anyway because being jaded and cynical about MMO's still hasn't gotten the least bit old  and repetitive after over a decade of doing it".

I'm jaded and cynical about anyone who comes out and says they have fixed all the problems and hold all the answers. Besides, I've heard this tune (or variations of it) before.

It's easy to point out the problems with MMOs, but my issue is that for most MMOs the story is secondary to the player experience in the world. Sure, BioWare is trying to tie the two together, but I see them having to actually deliver on a lot of expectations and wonder how tightly the player experience are going to be tied to the story. I get that the writer sees story as "the point" MMOs have been missing, but that certainly isn't the whole picture. Especially when BioWare announces classes, skill trees and advanced classes just like pretty much every other MMO in existence.

Also: stories end. MMOs work best if they are open-ended. So either the SWOR story is going to have some sort of conclusion that won't be released for another 5 years or players are going to get to the 'max' level having reached the conclusion of their character story and the main content option is to start again.

Seriously, any company that makes these kind of statements really has to put up. BioWare doesn't get a free pass on stupidity and over-hype.

[Sky]

MMOs work best if they are open-ended.

Fuck yeah, BC will be raiding the Darth Wibble zone friday night! That's open-ended gameplay, you can pick from any of the fabulous raids in the game. Genetically different, baby.

[Stabs]

I don't think they mean to be snarky or superior. I think what we're seeing is the result of people being locked together in an ivory tower "making something amazing" and talking to each other about it all day long.

Remember Paul Barnett was just some bloke in the office that Marketing suddenly spotted as being more genuinely enthusiastic than they could get any actor to pretend to be.

[Ollie]

MMOs work best if they are open-ended.

Fuck yeah, BC will be raiding the Darth Wibble zone friday night! That's open-ended gameplay, you can pick from any of the fabulous raids in the game. Genetically different, baby.

You bastard. I made this super awkward high-pitched squeak while laughing, and the office door happened to be open. Happy now?

[HaemishM]

I think it's time someone comes along and says Bioware AUSTIN again.

[Rasix]

Bioware   AUSTIN .

Done.

[Sheepherder]

Bioware isn't infalliable.  I'm having a hard time coping with the start of Baldur's Gate II:

1. The ration of zones explored to elves in party is 2:2.
2. I have seen no less than three genies.
3. Shadow Thieves.  When I heard WUA mention this I thought he was making a funny about stupid RPG names.  Guess not.
4. Random unmarked traps.  Fuck you too Bioware.

[Ingmar]

You can lay the blame for "Shadow Thieves" at the feet of Ed Greenwood, not Bioware.

Also put more points in Find/Remove Traps.  

EDIT: Sure, I'll go for the extra nerd points - technically the ratio is 2:1.5. 

[Velorath]

BioWare talks smack to other MMO developers: "MMOs had no fun and no point... until we came along! Story story story!"

I'm sure there is some saying about something happening right after pride, but I can't quite remember it.

Alternately, you could have titled that quote as "Bioware agrees with what a lot of what many on F13 have said about MMO's, but we have to tear them apart anyway because being jaded and cynical about MMO's still hasn't gotten the least bit old  and repetitive after over a decade of doing it".

I'm jaded and cynical about anyone who comes out and says they have fixed all the problems and hold all the answers. Besides, I've heard this tune (or variations of it) before.

It's easy to point out the problems with MMOs, but my issue is that for most MMOs the story is secondary to the player experience in the world. Sure, BioWare is trying to tie the two together, but I see them having to actually deliver on a lot of expectations and wonder how tightly the player experience are going to be tied to the story. I get that the writer sees story as "the point" MMOs have been missing, but that certainly isn't the whole picture. Especially when BioWare announces classes, skill trees and advanced classes just like pretty much every other MMO in existence.

Also: stories end. MMOs work best if they are open-ended. So either the SWOR story is going to have some sort of conclusion that won't be released for another 5 years or players are going to get to the 'max' level having reached the conclusion of their character story and the main content option is to start again.

Seriously, any company that makes these kind of statements really has to put up. BioWare doesn't get a free pass on stupidity and over-hype.

So essentially, linking to this article was just an excuse to make the same tired arguments that have already been made dozens of times in this thread.  Congrats.

[Malakili]

BioWare talks smack to other MMO developers: "MMOs had no fun and no point... until we came along! Story story story!"

I'm sure there is some saying about something happening right after pride, but I can't quite remember it.

Alternately, you could have titled that quote as "Bioware agrees with what a lot of what many on F13 have said about MMO's, but we have to tear them apart anyway because being jaded and cynical about MMO's still hasn't gotten the least bit old  and repetitive after over a decade of doing it".

I'm jaded and cynical about anyone who comes out and says they have fixed all the problems and hold all the answers. Besides, I've heard this tune (or variations of it) before.

It's easy to point out the problems with MMOs, but my issue is that for most MMOs the story is secondary to the player experience in the world. Sure, BioWare is trying to tie the two together, but I see them having to actually deliver on a lot of expectations and wonder how tightly the player experience are going to be tied to the story. I get that the writer sees story as "the point" MMOs have been missing, but that certainly isn't the whole picture. Especially when BioWare announces classes, skill trees and advanced classes just like pretty much every other MMO in existence.

Also: stories end. MMOs work best if they are open-ended. So either the SWOR story is going to have some sort of conclusion that won't be released for another 5 years or players are going to get to the 'max' level having reached the conclusion of their character story and the main content option is to start again.

Seriously, any company that makes these kind of statements really has to put up. BioWare doesn't get a free pass on stupidity and over-hype.

So essentially, linking to this article was just an excuse to make the same tired arguments that have already been made dozens of times in this thread.  Congrats.

Its Star Wars, its an MMO, and they haven't released significant new information about the game in ages.  Put that all together and you get a lot of posts, a really long thread, and not really much to say all the same.  This shouldn't be surprising enough to even feign outrage.

[eldaec]

People pissing and moaning about the quality of this thread may want to consider how there will be no meaningful information to talk about until November at the earliest.

[Sheepherder]

You can lay the blame for "Shadow Thieves" at the feet of Ed Greenwood, not Bioware.

Also put more points in Find/Remove Traps. 

EDIT: Sure, I'll go for the extra nerd points - technically the ratio is 2:1.5. 

1. That actually explains a lot:


2. It's maxed.  It just has to stop fucking turning off every time a goblin appears.

3. 2:1 even, depending on how you consider interiors.  Apparently all three female love interests are some variant of elf too, and one looks like it would be a clear-cut case of statutory rape.

[Ingmar]

Eh, she's an elf, so she's probably like 80. 

[LK]

When you apply realistic cultural standards to a fantastical one, of course you're going to be all "WTF that's WRONG and BACKWARDS" when something that works for that particular universe and people is presented.

[DLRiley]

BioWare talks smack to other MMO developers: "MMOs had no fun and no point... until we came along! Story story story!"

I'm sure there is some saying about something happening right after pride, but I can't quite remember it.

Alternately, you could have titled that quote as "Bioware agrees with what a lot of what many on F13 have said about MMO's, but we have to tear them apart anyway because being jaded and cynical about MMO's still hasn't gotten the least bit old  and repetitive after over a decade of doing it".

Sort of.  There is a lot of criticism of MMOs being pointless and a lot of times not fun here, but there solution offered has rarely or never been "hey, lets make it more like a single player game."   I don't want a single player game, I want a GOOD MMO game.

I don't want a good mmo, I want a good game. WoW and EvE are good mmo's, I play neither because they are horrible games. Besides why pay to play a horrible game when there are more than enough horrible games on the market that are free and massive multiplayer? A good game would make a great mmo, while a good mmo makes a bad game. Being good at your genre means shit, for example Transformers 2 is a good action movie but a horrible movie. While Star Trek is a good movie, and because it was a good movie and had alll the things that make a movie good it was also a great action movie. Or District 9 for example which downright embarrassed 3 of the big budget action/scifi movies during the summer because it was a good movie first. I watched transformers 2 online, star trek and district 9 i watched in theater. I'm waiting for the day when people realize that they don't want to pay $15 a month for  a  good mmo...

[Velorath]

People pissing and moaning about the quality of this thread may want to consider how there will be no meaningful information to talk about until November at the earliest.

So we need to reiterate the same shit ad nauseam?  If there's nothing to talk about, one would think it would be fairly easy to just not say shit.

[Malakili]

People pissing and moaning about the quality of this thread may want to consider how there will be no meaningful information to talk about until November at the earliest.

So we need to reiterate the same shit ad nauseam?  If there's nothing to talk about, one would think it would be fairly easy to just not say shit.

Which is why in my post that says more or less the same thing I put the emphasis on the fact that this was Star Wars related, and therefore impossible to stay quiet about.