SWTOR

[Kageru]

WoW doesn't really need it as much though. In part because the levelling is still quite rapid given they've reduced needed XP up to 70. However their cross server instances and huge population mean that whatever you are interested in you probably can find a group for it. Which I guess is another advantage for the flexible virtual space of instances over PQ's now that I think about it. Though sure, not a solution if you want to be doing an instance with a specific person and there's a level gap (though it does make levels feel more meaningful).

[Ingmar]

Part of what made that possible in CoH was an effective sidekicking system.

5 years later still noone else has an effective sidekicking system.

I'm beginning to suspect WoW is finally looking at implementing one in Cataclysm.  They're removing "ranks" of spells and moving them all to a percentage system that scales with level.  You've also seen them tinkering with scaled gear with the Heirloom items they implemented.  (Which was a clever way to try something without wrecking the whole game if it didn't work if I'm right.)

Yeah this is a good point, I didn't put those 2 things together but they definitely would have a much easier time with something like this because of it. The big advantage CoH had as far as this goes though, is no loot from the actual content to take up bag space til you can use it 40 levels later, or whatever.

[UnSub]

Part of what made that possible in CoH was an effective sidekicking system.

5 years later still noone else has an effective sidekicking system.

CoH/V took ChampO's super-sidekicking system, which sets the entire team to the level of the team leader. What ChampO doesn't have is as good a scaling system as CoH/V does.

Also, random zone events work very well in some zones and horrible in others. Plus that Halloween one Koyasha experience was criticised for taking away all the mobs that other players who didn't want to get involved in the event were looking for. And it is a 'new' event from Halloween 2009, so still draws a crowd. Older events like the fires in Steel Canyon and the Troll rave in Skyway City (or even the Scrapyarder Strike in Port Nerva (I think) don't really attract that much attention anymore. Rewards are certainly another aspect of it - you can help put a building fire out and then get nothing for it, but if you fail and the building explodes it is instant death.

Which isn't to say that CoH/V does these things wrong, but that they have other issues to deal with if they wanted to make their events more PQ-like.

[eldaec]

Only reason CoX random events (except the rikti invasion) don't get too much attention is that they are only designed as small scale background things to make the zones seem interesting, not full scale player objectives. There is nothing in the design stopping a more complex and involving zone event/PQ.


At least, nothing except how CoX devs are still so over-cautious in designing event rewards following the Winter Lord debacle.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Part of what made that possible in CoH was an effective sidekicking system.

5 years later still noone else has an effective sidekicking system.

But there is at least one excellent mentoring system (EQ2).  Given sufficient rewards for mentoring such that it advances your character as well (if differently) as regular adventuring, why wouldn't a mentoring system work just as well as a sidekicking system? 

I ask because it seems mentoring is much easier to implement and balance than sidekicking, and has the added benefit of playing nice with other issues such as not skipping content needed to complete a story arc or to provide a non-repetitive character evolution, and being made completely irrelevant at the first point where any kind of content gating was implemented (the wisdom of which can be left to another discussion).  In fact, for true AAA titles whose content continues to increase over time, mentoring has the advantage of becoming more and more valuable as the game matures since it allows you to enjoy lower level content that you missed or which didn't exist when you were levelling through that range.

[eldaec]

I haven't played EQ2 since mentoring, but I assume it is the same thing as CoX Exemplaring (sidekicking down to a group mate's lower level).

Sidekicking down is fine, and I agree it is idiotic not to have this alongside sidekicking up.

But sidekicking down is not a replacement for sidekicking up, because 90% of the time sidekicking up is more fun for the newbie. Making sure newbies have fun, feel special, and can be involved with whatever new shit their friends are doing is more important than vets moaning that they missed a low level dungeon (start an alt ffs).

And I don't see how sidekicking down is any easier to implement than sidekicking up.

[Tuncal]

I haven't played EQ2 since mentoring, but I assume it is the same thing as CoX Exemplaring (sidekicking down to a group mate's lower level).

Sidekicking down is fine, and I agree it is idiotic not to have this alongside sidekicking up.

But sidekicking down is not a replacement for sidekicking up, because 90% of the time sidekicking up is more fun for the newbie. Making sure newbies have fun, feel special, and can be involved with whatever new shit their friends are doing is more important than vets moaning that they missed a low level dungeon (start an alt ffs).

And I don't see how sidekicking down is any easier to implement than sidekicking up.

While they might be the same from a technical point of view, I think the design advantages lie squarely on the side of only mentoring down. If you allow newbies to sidekick up to the highest level content, anything else that leads to that will only feel like something you have to slog through. Taking away power from an elevated newbie sucks, be that high level abilities or just simple abilities that are 1000 as powerful.

However if you only allow mentoring down then a new character's progression can be determined and optimized. The higher player won't mind playing without all his special abilities and powers, because he knows that in the 'real world' he can get them back - he might even enjoy the forgotten level of simplicity. Then you can work on making the newbie zones as fun and special as possible, without worrying that you have to design all your game progression altered by lowbie characters having gone through your high level zones. You want to pace what little discovery there is in an MMO as much as possible, after all.

[Lantyssa]

I hated dropping my level because it meant I lost all my neat tricks.  Going up means I get to play with friends.  I'm still weak compared to them, but I'm not losing anything.  If games gave you a full action bar from the beginning it wouldn't matter so much, but my experience is the exact opposite.

[Koyasha]

I hated dropping my level because it meant I lost all my neat tricks.  Going up means I get to play with friends.  I'm still weak compared to them, but I'm not losing anything.  If games gave you a full action bar from the beginning it wouldn't matter so much, but my experience is the exact opposite.

Yep, this.  I avoid almost anything that requires me to lower my level in CoX unless there's no other option.  Only if I really want a badge or something from a lowbie arc will I bother to drop down to a lower level.

Now if I had access to all my abilities even at lower levels, only scaled to be appropriate in strength, that's fine.  But if I can't use abilities that I gained above X level (or X+5 as it is now in CoX) then I will avoid dropping down to any level where I lose an ability I use.

I think sidekicking both up and down, as long as all it does is scale the numbers, without adding or taking away any powers, is a great way to do it.  Since their relative power remains the same as compared to an equal level mob, newbies don't feel like they're being given power, or having it taken away, when they return to their normal level.  They merely remain just as effective as they always have been.  It just means they can play with their friends.  Same going down, if you don't lose powers.  Just means you can play with your friends.  This maintains character progression - gaining powers as you level up - without the frustration of losing what you've earned if you decide to level down for something.

[Ingmar]

I didn't mind sidekicking down in CoX at all, it never felt like a waste to me because I was still getting rewarded at my 'real' level for the play.

The issue I see with implementing a sidekick-down type system in a game like WoW, where it is relatively easy to hit the level cap and also relatively easy to find personally rewarding ways to spend your time, is finding an incentive to get people to actually do it, other than feeling guilt over their slow leveling friends being left behind. In CoX when I played it there was never really a question of giving up what I *could* be getting from doing content at my 'real' level, in a gear-heavy game like WoW the opportunity cost for spending time in lower content is quite a bit higher. The rewards need to be good to entice people to play a weaker version of themselves for someone else's benefit, but they can't be so good that finding a newbie and running lower level content becomes the optimal way to spend your time.

Maybe (again using WoW as the model):

sidekicking down - gold rewards
random max level instances - badge rewards
random BG - honor rewards
raiding - direct gear + badge rewards

There's not really a group-friendly way to make money in WoW right now so something like that could fill a niche without displacing the other rewards systems already in play, and it isn't hard to see how other games could implement something similar with multiple currency types.

[Musashi]

Yea the only problem I had with sidekicking in CoX was that I was playing CoX.  The fact that I was sidekicking in CoX meant that I wasn't creating my dude anymore, and therefore was bored.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Well, the reason I mentioned EQ2's mentoring rather than CoX's Exemplaring is because EQ2 actually does it right.  Unlike Exemplaring, when you mentor down, you lose no abilities, they just scale down in power.  And there are several worthwhile rewards for doing so including earning AA, earning status, gaining achievements, picking up missed content, sacrificing some of your adventuring experience to your mentee helping them level faster to "close the gap", etc. 

Gear rewards is indeed an issue, although it is mitigated somewhat by the sad fact that in EQ2 most of the gear earned from questing is underpowered even if earned at the level the content was designed for.   

[Sky]

Why do you hate raiders who earn things? 

Mentoring in EQ2 is a really good implementation, having a mentor in the group can make dungeons a lot of fun, even with the abilities scaled way back you've got so much more to use than you had when you were actually that level. Fun for mentor and mentored.

[Rendakor]

The fact that you can gain AAXP is what made the huge difference to me. Mentoring in CoX just lets you earn money and clear your debt. (Or did they eventually change that? Haven't played in a while...)

[Goreschach]

Has nobody pointed out that these systems are all just dancing around a level system that should probably be thrown out to begin with?

[Koyasha]

The fact that you can gain AAXP is what made the huge difference to me. Mentoring in CoX just lets you earn money and clear your debt. (Or did they eventually change that? Haven't played in a while...)

They did.  You now earn exp and inf as normal, if you're not 50 yet.  But the issue with losing powers is still the big one to me, and I agree with Count Nerfedalot, it sounds like EQ2 does it right as far as the mentoring thing is concerned, in that the powers are scaled down, but you're not forced to readjust and not use the fun stuff you worked hard to earn.

Has nobody pointed out that these systems are all just dancing around a level system that should probably be thrown out to begin with?

I don't agree, I like leveling.  Gives me something very solid to work toward, something to move forward to.  Yeah, having perfect sidekicking and mentoring would kind of make the entire world flat in a way, so I can go anywhere, do anything, without my level being too much of an issue - but it doesn't remove my incentive to level in order to get more abilities.  Sure, you can advance in skill systems or whatever, but I find I don't enjoy it as much.  So in a way, if we were to have a perfect sidekicking and mentoring system, it keeps leveling where it matters, and "eliminates" it where that would be good.

The one main weakness of level systems thus far is starting you out with too few abilities, and making the first handful of levels really annoying with that.  Start out with enough abilities that you don't feel ridiculously restricted, then ramp that up to even more abilities, and it'd be a lot better than starting off with those three abilities that every newbie in every game seems to get, and then having further skills slowly doled out.

[Lantyssa]

Has nobody pointed out that these systems are all just dancing around a level system that should probably be thrown out to begin with?

That's pretty much a given with me.  I don't bring it up much since I just sound like a broken record.

[Ingmar]

Scaling difficulty for a mentoring/sidekicking system without a level system would be an even bigger pain in the ass, I suspect.

[DLRiley]

Has nobody pointed out that these systems are all just dancing around a level system that should probably be thrown out to begin with?

I second this. Don't understand why leveling is something people still want. But than again I don't understand why someone would want it anal.

[Tuncal]

Has nobody pointed out that these systems are all just dancing around a level system that should probably be thrown out to begin with?

Well yes, but nobody is bright or brave enough to build a proper character advancement system that doesn't involve levels. Kinda looking forward to see how 'The Secret World' tries to pull that off.

[Lantyssa]

Scaling difficulty for a mentoring/sidekicking system without a level system would be an even bigger pain in the ass, I suspect.

If there isn't a huge power curve, you don't really have a need for such systems.

[Stabs]

Leveling is simply a numerical expression of a more fundamental mechanic: progression.

People like to progress. People really like to progress.

The games use a Pavlovian method ringing a little bell to make a "ding" noise as people pass certain arbitrary numerical values. And people love that.

There are two main alternatives.

Not progressing as a character. The Doom approach, your guy is just your guy, he'll progress with gear but not as a character. He won't become tougher or smarter he'll just pick up a flak jacket and a bigger gun.

Disguised leveling. Eve, Darkfall and UO have what is called a skills system where instead of being locked in to specific class and getting predefined powers as you progress you can pick and mix. You're still progressing your character in much the same way as a class/level game but you have more freedom to choose powers and more opportunity to gimp yourself by making bad choices.

In Elder Scrolls games both systems run side by side with standard classes like Warrior and Archer offered next to a custom option.

MMOs use class and levels to protect their newbies from being at a disadvantage while hardcore players rail against it because they can't fine tune their characters. F13 is a demographic which will tend toward the latter.

[Goreschach]

That's incredibly short-sighted and shows a distinct lack of imagination. Take WOW, for instance. Aside from the short level grind up to max, which keeps getting shorter and shorter, the game is now almost entirely based on equipment progression.

[SnakeCharmer]

Er.  What?

The equipment progression is based on the next number on the equipment being ever so slightly better than the one you have previously.  It's the same damn number grind.  And that's all MMOs are.

[Stabs]

That's incredibly short-sighted and shows a distinct lack of imagination. Take WOW, for instance. Aside from the short level grind up to max, which keeps getting shorter and shorter, the game is now almost entirely based on equipment progression.

Sure, if you want a game just based on equipment progression then there are plenty of them out there. I mentioned DOOM.

The chances of SWTOR being such a game are close to nil for the reasons I outlined.

[Sky]

the game is now almost entirely based on equipment progression.

Which is far more repressive than leveling. Then again, if you use phrases like "short level grind up to max", we won't really agree on mmo design.

It's the same damn number grind.  And that's all MMOs are.

Sure, if you strip them down to the core. Why play any game, really?

[Draegan]

Sky, no one agrees with you on MMOG design.

[Sky]

Except the developers that tend to keep moving in the directions I talk about.

[Venkman]

Has nobody pointed out that these systems are all just dancing around a level system that should probably be thrown out to begin with?

Well yes, but nobody is bright or brave enough to build a proper character advancement system that doesn't involve levels. Kinda looking forward to see how 'The Secret World' tries to pull that off.

When every single other genre of game, and everything from actual games to quasi games all get some sort of player-progression model, it's sorta hard to argue that it's a bad idea.

As has been said: Levels are progression of numbers, gear is a progression of numbers, UO's old skill system was a progression of numbers, any successful social networking game, including those which are just html refreshes of little numbers: progression of numbers.

Doom is an ok counterpoint. Until you get to all of the modern FPS games. Which are all progressions of numbers.

People like this shit.  Pretty much all games since Go have had some sort of mechanism for "getting better", and most have some sort of enumeration that aggregates performance into easily comparable stats.

So it's not about whether a game has a sequential dance of dings. It's how well those dings are paced and in what theme they are wrapped.

[Lantyssa]

When every single other genre of game, and everything from actual games to quasi games all get some sort of player-progression model, it's sorta hard to argue that it's a bad idea.

Chess.

[Margalis]

When every single other genre of game, and everything from actual games to quasi games all get some sort of player-progression model, it's sorta hard to argue that it's a bad idea.
...
Pretty much all games since Go have had some sort of mechanism for "getting better", and most have some sort of enumeration that aggregates performance into easily comparable stats.

You are confusing player progression with character progression. Most games do have a form of player progression - "getting better." Relatively few games have a form of character progression and virtually no games outside of video games.

[Sheepherder]

Character progression is roleplaying.

[eldaec]

When every single other genre of game, and everything from actual games to quasi games all get some sort of player-progression model, it's sorta hard to argue that it's a bad idea.
...
Pretty much all games since Go have had some sort of mechanism for "getting better", and most have some sort of enumeration that aggregates performance into easily comparable stats.

You are confusing player progression with character progression. Most games do have a form of player progression - "getting better." Relatively few games have a form of character progression and virtually no games outside of video games.

Except, you know, role playing games.

[Velorath]

When every single other genre of game, and everything from actual games to quasi games all get some sort of player-progression model, it's sorta hard to argue that it's a bad idea.

Chess.

Chess has character progression if a pawn makes it to the other side of the board. 

[WindupAtheist]

Where the fuck is this "Everything has character progression!" noise coming from? On one hand you have tabletop RPGs, computer RPGs, and a bunch of shit in the last few years that has levels tacked on. That's about it. On the other hand, you have... I dunno... a billion non-RPG video games.