SWTOR

[Hindenburg]

It's called Free Realms.

[Tannhauser]

There are going to be six classes and each class will have its own story-driven quest line.  The quests do not overlap, each is unique to each class.  Wow, if that's true (source PC Gaymer) I'm stunned!  That means you can play the game six times and have a unique experience each time!  I've been kind of 'meh' about SWTOR but now I'm pretty excited.  Yes, the hype has me in its tractor beam.

[Lantyssa]

Eight classes.  Six was a misquote.

[Ghambit]

So, the 6 unique story-grinds are how Bioware will basically keep the public quelled enough to buy time for content expansions. hmmm

[Velorath]

So, the 6 unique story-grinds are how Bioware will basically keep the public quelled enough to buy time for content expansions. hmmm

Grinding is forcing yourself to do something even though it's not fun.  Presumably if you're playing through all the classes to see the story, you probably find it entertaining.

[gryeyes]

So, the 6 unique story-grinds are how Bioware will basically keep the public quelled enough to buy time for content expansions. hmmm

Which is a vast fucking improvement over the standard method of stretching content.

[DLRiley]

So, the 6 unique story-grinds are how Bioware will basically keep the public quelled enough to buy time for content expansions. hmmm

Grinding is forcing yourself to do something even though it's not fun.  Presumably if you're playing through all the classes to see the story, you probably find it entertaining.

That definition is so cute. And people wonder why diku's are still in business.

[Bzalthek]

Watching movies are such a grind.  2 hours of bullshit dialogue and action sequences and all that shit.  Thank god for 30 second bunny shorts.  Now I can watch a movie in less than a minute and get on with my life.

[Ratman_tf]

If there's any kind of game that can find a way to put grind into story driven content, it's MMORPGs.

"Can't raid, I have to talk to 30 more people to get my epic hat!" 

[Senses]

I hate to reduce this to common sense but...If you like watching a movie instead of playing a game, 8 different story arcs will appeal to you longer than 20 minutes, for the rest of us, the kicking ass and finding loot better be good too.

[Goumindong]

So, the 6 unique story-grinds are how Bioware will basically keep the public quelled enough to buy time for content expansions. hmmm

Which is a vast fucking improvement over the standard method of stretching content.

But is it really different? To run 8 unique story lines worth of material over 20 levels, you still need 160 levels worth of content. Alternately you could just have 160 levels worth of content.

Now, it certainly will force people to play different and/or under appreciated classes in order to get to that content [which might make for an interesting meta discussion about balancing and whining], but its still just the same amount of content stretched out.

[Velorath]

So, the 6 unique story-grinds are how Bioware will basically keep the public quelled enough to buy time for content expansions. hmmm

Which is a vast fucking improvement over the standard method of stretching content.

But is it really different? To run 8 unique story lines worth of material over 20 levels, you still need 160 levels worth of content. Alternately you could just have 160 levels worth of content.

If you just enjoy the content, then it doesn't really matter if you go through 20 levels eight times, or 160 levels to see it all (aside from the fact that 20 levels of content 8 times allows for a variety of stories, rather than 1 story which might get stale if dragged out for too long).  If you're the kind of person who just wants to hit max level and start raiding/PVP, it seems to bme that 20 levels of content to go through rather than 160 would be preferable.  Doesn't seem like 160 levels of content would be preferable to anyone, hence why you don't hear "I like this game, but man I wish it had more levels" in too many MMO threads around here.

[gryeyes]

But is it really different?

Yes its different because you can tailor the experience and keep it fresh when its customized around a specific class. As opposed to having 160 levels of homogenized content.

[Hindenburg]

But is it really different? To run 8 unique story lines worth of material over 20 levels, you still need 160 levels worth of content. Alternately you could just have 160 levels worth of content.

 

[Bzalthek]

But is it really different? To run 8 unique story lines worth of material over 20 levels, you still need 160 levels worth of content. Alternately you could just have 160 levels worth of content.

 

They're playing on the storytelling aspect.  There are few stories in books I wish were 8 times longer.  Even though it was essentially the same game, I'm glad half life wasn't super long instead of making blue shift etc.

[UnSub]

There are going to be six classes and each class will have its own story-driven quest line.  The quests do not overlap, each is unique to each class.  Wow, if that's true (source PC Gaymer) I'm stunned!  That means you can play the game six times and have a unique experience each time!  I've been kind of 'meh' about SWTOR but now I'm pretty excited.  Yes, the hype has me in its tractor beam.

Technically the choice you make in missions will impact on your character, so you might have to play through more than 8 times to see everything.

It's BioWare. Think Mass Effect but with lightsabres.

[lamaros]

Technically the choice you make in missions will impact on your character change the text you read awesome voice acting you hear and cut scenes you see, so you might have to play through more than 8 times to see everything.

No need to tip.

[Tannhauser]

There are going to be six classes and each class will have its own story-driven quest line.  The quests do not overlap, each is unique to each class.  Wow, if that's true (source PC Gaymer) I'm stunned!  That means you can play the game six times and have a unique experience each time!  I've been kind of 'meh' about SWTOR but now I'm pretty excited.  Yes, the hype has me in its tractor beam.

Technically the choice you make in missions will impact on your character, so you might have to play through more than 8 times to see everything.

It's BioWare. Think Mass Effect but with lightsabres.

They mentioned this in the article.  The player was on a star destroyer and he had the choice to sack the captain or let him remain on.  Regardless of his choice, the ship jumped into hyperspace and then got boarded during a fight.  If you replaced the captain, the article seemed to say you had less help to repel boarders.

So yes, you have the illusion of choice, but the end result is the same; you fight off the boarding party.

[Venkman]

So what though? It's choice at all.

This isn't going to matter to the raiders. They'll just queue up the walkthrough on swtorbot.com so they can max out and do whatever there is to do at the cap.

But for the people who get bored halfway through Class A's storyline, they have Class B's, which instead of being a romp through the same exact sequence of quests will actually be different. In some way.

We're a long way away from knowing whether we're talking MMO different or RPG different. One is just quests nobody reads because they simply drive you to get/fight the same content skinned differently. The other is a storyline people read because that's the premise of the whole experience.

In other words, just because it's billed as an MMO, we really don't yet know if SWTOR will be a standard MMO or an RPG with an MMO business model bolted on.

[UnSub]

Technically the choice you make in missions will impact on your character change the text you read awesome voice acting you hear and cut scenes you see, so you might have to play through more than 8 times to see everything.

No need to tip.

True, but I also expect that some missions won't be accessible unless you have the correct faction (light side vs dark side) so it will probably matter at some point.

[Goumindong]

If you just enjoy the content, then it doesn't really matter if you go through 20 levels eight times, or 160 levels to see it all (aside from the fact that 20 levels of content 8 times allows for a variety of stories, rather than 1 story which might get stale if dragged out for too long).  If you're the kind of person who just wants to hit max level and start raiding/PVP, it seems to bme that 20 levels of content to go through rather than 160 would be preferable.  Doesn't seem like 160 levels of content would be preferable to anyone, hence why you don't hear "I like this game, but man I wish it had more levels" in too many MMO threads around here.

You're missing the point, it doesn't matter how many levels you have, it matters how much content you have. The level comments were to hit home about just how much content is being promised and will have to be kept up. In the end, the number of levels you have doesn't much matter, what matters is the amount of content you have within those levels. You could cram 160 levels of content into 40 levels if you wanted. Its no different than if you had 40 levels but there was so much content you had to go through them 4 times to see it all. The end result is the same amount of content

So what though? It's choice at all.

Not all choice is good. This is the same choice we already have.

But for the people who get bored halfway through Class A's storyline, they have Class B's, which instead of being a romp through the same exact sequence of quests will actually be different. In some way.

The only way they can do that is if Class A's can't group with Class B's.

[Velorath]

If you just enjoy the content, then it doesn't really matter if you go through 20 levels eight times, or 160 levels to see it all (aside from the fact that 20 levels of content 8 times allows for a variety of stories, rather than 1 story which might get stale if dragged out for too long).  If you're the kind of person who just wants to hit max level and start raiding/PVP, it seems to bme that 20 levels of content to go through rather than 160 would be preferable.  Doesn't seem like 160 levels of content would be preferable to anyone, hence why you don't hear "I like this game, but man I wish it had more levels" in too many MMO threads around here.

You're missing the point, it doesn't matter how many levels you have, it matters how much content you have. The level comments were to hit home about just how much content is being promised and will have to be kept up. In the end, the number of levels you have doesn't much matter, what matters is the amount of content you have within those levels. You could cram 160 levels of content into 40 levels if you wanted. Its no different than if you had 40 levels but there was so much content you had to go through them 4 times to see it all. The end result is the same amount of content

You don't really have a point beyond "content is content".  You're going through a lot of effort to make a statement that becomes completely pointless once you start talking about the quality of the content, how content is broken down and spread out, replay value, and how it is presented to players.

[Bzalthek]

But for the people who get bored halfway through Class A's storyline, they have Class B's, which instead of being a romp through the same exact sequence of quests will actually be different. In some way.

The only way they can do that is if Class A's can't group with Class B's.

Really?  That's the only way?  You can't think of anything else?

[NiX]

The only way they can do that is if Class A's can't group with Class B's.

Really?  That's the only way?  You can't think of anything else?

Seriously, there's a ton of ways you could go about making sure they story lines aren't given away.

[Koyasha]

Not all choice is good. This is the same choice we already have.

We don't have any choice right now.  None at all.  In any MMOG I've played so far, the only choices I have are: do the quest, and don't do the quest.  If there's a point where a decision of some sort would be reasonable, that decision is forced upon you.  You never get the option to make any kind of decision at all, you don't even get the illusion of a decision as described in which you can choose to sack the captain or not.  You simply automatically do one or the other.  Often there's "dialogue" that you click on to do it, but there are no other options presented.  The only choice you have is to stop doing the quest entirely and walk away.

Besides which, that's the exact same kind of decision you get in single-player RPG's too.  X / Y.  Consequences tend to be a variation ranging between slight to large on some future part of the storyline.  For example in KOTOR, picking which character will rescue you from the Leviathan's brig.  All of them do pretty much the same thing, there's just slight differences in how it's accomplished and what's said during it.  Or in Mass Effect, the various methods for going through Noveria, or hell, most of the decisions in the game.  Same goal, same destination, same game, but slightly different path to get there depending on what you do.

And RPG players play through this several times to see the different decisions.  There are a lot of players out there that do this.  With eight character classes and multiple potential stories for each character class, if each class is even as much content as a full game, you've got a lot of content there that the target audience (RPG players) is going to take a long, long time going through before they run out.  Will you eventually develop slower than they consume?  Probably, but it'll take them months to get to the point where they've 'finished' the original game, by which time BioWare has added more content and so on, for probably well over a year before the bulk of the players has 'finished' everything that's been put in.

[tmp]

They mentioned this in the article.  The player was on a star destroyer and he had the choice to sack the captain or let him remain on.  Regardless of his choice, the ship jumped into hyperspace and then got boarded during a fight.  If you replaced the captain, the article seemed to say you had less help to repel boarders.

So yes, you have the illusion of choice, but the end result is the same; you fight off the boarding party.

That choice might well have had some further consequences down the road, though, say by moving the player onto certain branch of the overall story. But impossible to tell at this point.

[Goumindong]

You don't really have a point beyond "content is content".  You're going through a lot of effort to make a statement that becomes completely pointless once you start talking about the quality of the content, how content is broken down and spread out, replay value, and how it is presented to players.

Except that all of these things are not about how much content is there which is the issue in question. I responded to a line of quotes dealing with content and stretching it. At the end of the day you're still stretching content and that is still the problem.

Seriously, there's a ton of ways you could go about making sure they story lines aren't given away.

Only if

A: Your players don't talk to each other
B: Your players do not participate in the same instances
C: Your content is "words to read" and not actual unique gameplay.

Seriously. How do you hide in a game where everyone plays together? Does the smuggler class not know that the star destroyer blows up at the end of the module because the mission was a jedi mission and he was just along for the ride? Maybe he doesn't participate in the final battle and so doesn't really know what is going on there...

Not really, all of that is ridiculous bullshit, players in all MMO's can avoid the story by not talking to the proper NPC's and simply float along on XP and rewards, but not talking to quest based NPC's doesn't change the content at all, for anyone, they've still done the missions, they know what is up, what to do, etc etc etc.

We don't have any choice right now.  None at all.  In any MMOG I've played so far, the only choices I have are: do the quest, and don't do the quest.  If there's a point where a decision of some sort would be reasonable, that decision is forced upon you.  You never get the option to make any kind of decision at all, you don't even get the illusion of a decision as described in which you can choose to sack the captain or not.  You simply automatically do one or the other.  Often there's "dialogue" that you click on to do it, but there are no other options presented.  The only choice you have is to stop doing the quest entirely and walk away.

There is exactly the "sack the captain/don't sack the captain" types of decisions present in DDO. Its still the same amount of choice we have.

Besides which, that's the exact same kind of decision you get in single-player RPG's too. [...]  Probably, but it'll take them months to get to the point where they've 'finished' the original game, by which time BioWare has added more content and so on, for probably well over a year before the bulk of the players has 'finished' everything that's been put in.

Unless they're content stretching to the point where they run into the DDO problem of "must repeat everything multiple times to advance" then no, its not going to take months, and no, Bioware will not have made more content by then. No one is fast enough to keep up with the network effects and player base of an MMO.

[Merusk]

You guys are building this choice illusion up way too much in your heads.  You're going to be sorely disappointed when confronted with reality.

[Margalis]

One thing I'm not seeing much talk about wrt choice is what the rewards will be. Lightside/darkside points don't make sense if you choose to play a good guy or bad guy at the outset. So then quest rewards? In which case won't everyone go to Gamefaqs and choose the decision that gives you better stuff?

I think one thing you can't underestimate is that all MMOs are passive-aggressive competitions. In a single player game you might make a choice just to make it, in an MMO most players are going to choose whatever gives them the best reward.

I'm curious to see how they handle it.

[Velorath]

One thing I'm not seeing much talk about wrt choice is what the rewards will be. Lightside/darkside points don't make sense if you choose to play a good guy or bad guy at the outset. So then quest rewards? In which case won't everyone go to Gamefaqs and choose the decision that gives you better stuff?

I think one thing you can't underestimate is that all MMOs are passive-aggressive competitions. In a single player game you might make a choice just to make it, in an MMO most players are going to choose whatever gives them the best reward.

I'm curious to see how they handle it.

Didn't this conversation already come up several pages ago?

Also they already stated that there is a lightside/darkside system similar to what KotoR had.

[Venkman]

The only way they can do that is if Class A's can't group with Class B's.

Yep. So? Again, is this an MMO or an RPG with an MMO business model. I know everyone, including they, are putting this into the MMO box. But that's just common sense. As long as they keep categorizing it this way, they could announce almost any business model beside embedded ads, and nobody would be surprised. Calling this an RPG though puts them right into the one-and-done box.

And yet, everything they've said about the game is much more RPG than not. They'll dance around group-related questions while flashing sequences of Mass Effect UIs and personalized missions with choice.

Using terms like "stretching content" is painting SWTOR with EQWoW colors when they could actually be making eight single-player games with Alterac Valley at the level cap.

No one is fast enough to keep up with the network effects and player base of an MMO.

Nothing about current MMO quest UIs stand in the way of players progressing through the objectives. But SWTOR appears to be using an RPG dialog system. That's one real effective way to slow things down for sure 

[Margalis]

Also they already stated that there is a lightside/darkside system similar to what KotoR had.

Wut?

On the front page of the website they have "choose your allegiance" between the Empire and Rebels. How does it make sense for a Sith in the Empire to earn lightside points by petting puppies? From the website:

Choose to be a Jedi, a Sith, or from a variety of other classic Star Wars roles, and make decisions which define your personal story and determine your path down the light or dark side of the Force

Isn't choosing to be a Jedi or a Sith already making the determination of which side of the force you're on? Color me confused.

[Velorath]

They haven't gone into detail.  I'd be surprised if they let a Jedi go fully over to the Darkside, but there's no reason why Smugglers, Bounty Hunters, or Troopers at least wouldn't have options to be good or evil, regardless of which faction each class is aligned with.  I imagine a "good" Sith wouldn't be petting puppies so much as showing mercy rather than killing people mid-conversation for no reason.

[SnakeCharmer]

Isn't choosing to be a Jedi or a Sith already making the determination of which side of the force you're on? Color me confused.

You've played Mass Effect, yeah?  Same thing:  You can be a Paragon or a Renegade within that faction.  The paragon of a Sith Republic guy would be someone who holds steady to the true ideals of the Sith Empire - whatever that is - and carries out his orders explicitly as commanded to do so.  A Renegade would be someone who still holds allegiance with the Sith Empire, but disagrees at times with how those ideals are carried out / executed, and sometimes even goes against the will of the Sith Empire.

If any of that made sense.

[tmp]

I imagine a "good" Sith wouldn't be petting puppies so much as showing mercy rather than killing people mid-conversation for no reason.

I'm envisioning something like this.