SWTOR

[Malakili]

The whole story thing is going to turn out to be either awesome or a flop.  I don't really see much middle ground for it.  If it's a flop, TOR will probably not be anything to write home about.  If it's awesome, it will be huge for the online RPG market because there really aren't any RPG's that you can play multiplayer, and less that deliver continuing, updated content.

To a certain extent, it seems to be just what the doctor ordered for the majority of casual WoW players, who seem to enjoy the single player + chat box model of playing MMOs.  To those of us who have been playing MMOs for a long time, the model seems less appealing sometimes, but it does seem like there would be a large market for it.  It remains to be seen if that model can sustain an MMO though.

I don't think you need to have raids to be an MMO or "justify" yourself as an MMO, but those sort of epic battles, and group content, to me, are one of the things that is appealing in an MMO simply because its pretty much the only genre that HAS given that feeling.  Again, I've played the KOTOR games and loved them, but I remain skeptical that the TOR model will deliver as an MMO.

I worry specifically about the endgame.  Even if every class actually has their 100+ hours of content that they keep saying, thats NOTHING compared to the amount of time I've put into even my alts in other games.

[Velorath]

Everything else in this thread is just ignorant theorycrafting. We have no idea what the game will be save what people are guessing by watching a few clips, twisting some words from carefully crafted interviews, and going by the succession of missed-promises and trainwrecks the lead dev team has been involved in over the year.

I'd say at this point we have a pretty good understanding of the PVE game at least, so I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here.  You're aware they actually showed off gameplay at E3, and that some people got a little bit of hands on time with it right?

[Venkman]

Yes. I was responding more to the conviction some folks have that their non-experience forms a stronger foundation for a guess 

Raids in general don't seem like that great a mechanic anyway.  Some people feel like massive fights like that are needed in order to justify an MMOG, but my ideal game would be one in which you're basically an adventuring party, AD&D style, in a world with other adventuring parties also doing things, where you sometimes come into conflict. 

Have you played DDO? That pretty much described it imho.

But I don't agree on the Raids part. They're certainly not for everyone, but they are for enough people two achieve two things:

• Provides endless enjoyment without requiring constant new content.
• Creates an impossible barrier for people who still think they will someday achieve it anyway.

Neither is meant to be snarky because I feel both are required for this genre. Players arrive never expecting the game to "end". That's a big development challenge. So over time it's become apparent that players as a group can be brackted into sub playstyles, and that each play style can provide a subtle push or pull to motiviate another sub-group. Seeding the game space with one or two invincible pauldrons of invincible invincibility provides motivation just by existing. It's the mountain that'll probably never be climbed but presents a challenge anyway.

WoW handles this masterfully, mostly because they treat the world as a game rather than the world as a simulation (something other developers miss). So players are naturally funneled to something that can retain them. Not everyone stays forever, but most stay for far longer than they would any other title they'd be interested in.

So Raids may not be a great mechanic for you, but they peform a function and do it pretty well.

[VainEldritch]

Coh was originally a pve game. Are you just confirming that they have no long term plans for pvp?

Thus far, the wild dreams stated designs of SWOR are a bit schizophrenic:

 - massively multiplayer
 - individual stories for all
 - groups can override the decisions of individuals regarding the path taken through content
 - end game being developered by raid guild members
 - the story will matter and you can't repeat story content so your choices matter

The game, as we know it thus far, does not strike me as a clear-cut case requiring antipsychotic therapy. Schizo'-tastic shenanigans are however the likely result when drones of the group hive mind have diverging interests.

Methinks the "group override" system will cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and the calls for more solo content shall drown out the anger of the oceans and echo in the vaulted heights of Bioware's chamber pot. 

[Montague]

Yes. I was responding more to the conviction some folks have that their non-experience forms a stronger foundation for a guess 

Raids in general don't seem like that great a mechanic anyway.  Some people feel like massive fights like that are needed in order to justify an MMOG, but my ideal game would be one in which you're basically an adventuring party, AD&D style, in a world with other adventuring parties also doing things, where you sometimes come into conflict. 

Have you played DDO? That pretty much described it imho.

But I don't agree on the Raids part. They're certainly not for everyone, but they are for enough people two achieve two things:

• Provides endless enjoyment without requiring constant new content.
• Creates an impossible barrier for people who still think they will someday achieve it anyway.

Neither is meant to be snarky because I feel both are required for this genre. Players arrive never expecting the game to "end". That's a big development challenge. So over time it's become apparent that players as a group can be brackted into sub playstyles, and that each play style can provide a subtle push or pull to motiviate another sub-group. Seeding the game space with one or two invincible pauldrons of invincible invincibility provides motivation just by existing. It's the mountain that'll probably never be climbed but presents a challenge anyway.

WoW handles this masterfully, mostly because they treat the world as a game rather than the world as a simulation (something other developers miss). So players are naturally funneled to something that can retain them. Not everyone stays forever, but most stay for far longer than they would any other title they'd be interested in.

So Raids may not be a great mechanic for you, but they peform a function and do it pretty well.

At one time "the impossible mountain" might have been apropos, but now it's more like "bringing the mountain to the non-raider". Blizzard has time and again reduced the requirements to access the end-game, going from 40 man, down to 25, and now down to 10. They've also smoothed the entry curve from the soaring cliff that was originally Scholo/Strat-Molten Core down to the point where parts of Naxx were easier than heroics, especially on 25 man. Not only that, but then content is regularly nerfed and gear availability loosened. Blizzard knows that the endgame is all about character progression, so doing all they can to put as many players on that treadmill as possible is a good idea.

As you said, Blizzard treats the world as a game but a story-based MMO can't afford to do that. This is why I'm skeptical that this game can work as an MMO. Any sort of story immersion provided by the game will not survive first contact with the MMOGtards at large. Heck in my experience even a random group of players that might otherwise be interested in game lore and story tend to rush through content while grouped so as not to appear to be "that guy" and slow everyone else down - I saw that firsthand in LOTRO.

If I were to guess I would say this game will end up like LOTRO with lightsabers. Lots of lore and atmosphere, with little to no consideration given to a "raiding" style of play, but with a lot of MMO tropes that will make it in simply because you need the content. If the combat system works well enough and the game is polished enough it could even be a hit, but I'm not expecting anything groundbreaking here.

[Kageru]

Blizzard have certainly gone out of their way to make raiding accessible, which is the right answer for high population and retention numbers. Having an end-game with a "not for you, not ever" isn't a winning strategy.

At the same time the high end of their raid content is really hard. To actually complete all the hard modes and get all the achievements requires superior gear, reflexes, tactics, dedication, class balance and even then a fair bit of luck. And these hard modes are integrated into the encounter so they're not some arbitrary "switch" that boosts mob damage by 50%.

[Sky]

Well, I don't really went to get into  , but you can make raiding as accessible as you want and I won't enjoy it. I just don't like that strict forced style of gameplay. Having raiding, accessible or not, as the end-game, is an extremely limiting design. I can play one style for 80 levels and suddenly it's a different game. Thankfully I play EQ2 slow as fuck so it's not really a problem for me yet.

Raiding is tedious at best, usually annoying, and rarely rewarding to the individual. I'd rather be exploring and reading lore.

[Malakili]

Raiding is tedious at best, usually annoying, and rarely rewarding to the individual. I'd rather be exploring and reading lore.

I liked raiding for a long time, but I burnt way out, and I agree with this now.  The problem is that most people who play these games seem to have the attention span of my cats.  Going so far out of their way to make a lot of lore to explore and discover, when most people don't even read their quest text out side of the objectives, doesn't seem like a great design decision given their player base.  I've been having a lot of fun with Fallout 3 again lately because I can explore, discover lore, etc, and I can completely ignore any quests I don't feel like doing without an pressure to do them.   

I'd love an MMO that I could play like Fallout 3, but the issue is that I would want everyone else to be playing it the way I was.  But I'd end up walking into Megaton and seeing spammed "WTT FLAMETHROWER FOR MINIGUN PST" and I would cry.

[Ratman_tf]

Well, I don't really went to get into  , but you can make raiding as accessible as you want and I won't enjoy it. I just don't like that strict forced style of gameplay. Having raiding, accessible or not, as the end-game, is an extremely limiting design. I can play one style for 80 levels and suddenly it's a different game. Thankfully I play EQ2 slow as fuck so it's not really a problem for me yet.

Raiding is tedious at best, usually annoying, and rarely rewarding to the individual. I'd rather be exploring and reading lore.

Man, you don't have to raid, but holding up exploration and lore from the average MMOG as more fun than raiding?  

"You have found the dread swamp of dreadness! It's spooky and full of neener-bugs! Now bring me ten rat tails..."

[WayAbvPar]

I would far prefer some sort of random scenario that was a challenge for a group of high level players to the same static "everyone stand here while 1 person acts" raid BS that exists now.

[Sky]

Man, you don't have to raid, but holding up exploration and lore from the average MMOG as more fun than raiding?  

"You have found the dread swamp of dreadness! It's spooky and full of neener-bugs! Now bring me ten rat tails..."

If you level up too fast, you do indeed have to raid, or there's nothing left to do. The fact that raiding has become the only thing to do at max level is pretty sad, given over ten years of mmo development. Especially when it started (more or less) with a game that was almost entirely end game (UO).

And yes, even at the start of EQ2 when I disliked the gameplay, I enjoyed learning about the cataclysm and how the world had changed. The ten rat tails is more about uncreative quest objectives, but there are plenty of interesting quest bits and I can't imagine how boring they'd be if I wasn't reading to know /why/ I'm out collecting rat tails. No wonder people race through it if they're not interested in lore.

[Ratman_tf]

If you level up too fast, you do indeed have to raid, or there's nothing left to do. [/quote]

If you're not interested in raiding, what's the rush to level anyway?

[Sky]

Thankfully I play EQ2 slow as fuck so it's not really a problem for me yet.

[Venkman]

At one time "the impossible mountain" might have been apropos, but now it's more like "bringing the mountain to the non-raider". Blizzard has time and again reduced the requirements to access the end-game, going from 40 man, down to 25, and now down to 10.

This is true. However, I still (and always will) question how many people want that kind of game. Yes, gear and numbers requirements are a barrier of entry. But so too is the motivation to play. The same exact thing over and over and over. Same. Exact. Thing. That plus the pre-battle requirements. Casual players aren't those who show up to play Texas Hold'em every night for a week with 10, 25, or 40 of their closest friends.

Heck in my experience even a random group of players that might otherwise be interested in game lore and story tend to rush through content while grouped so as not to appear to be "that guy" and slow everyone else down - I saw that firsthand in LOTRO.

Exactly. Hence much talk about "each character has their own journey", KOTOR 3,4,5,6,7,++ which to me implies soloable personal quest story arcs. Or said another way: the absolute most resource intense expensive way to do things.

If you're not interested in raiding, what's the rush to level anyway?

Bzzz

People level up because that's the only way to change the experience with new abilities and new places. Those not predisposed to raiding mostly start raiding either because they still want to grow their character or because there's nothing else to do at the cap and they don't want to lose their friends/account.

Not saying SWTOR will solve this problem. But it's at least their intent to try. The evolutionary step that took us from spawncamp XP grinds to Quest grinds next goes to Story grinding, with the difference between Quest and Story being that you are required to care at some point

[Malakili]

Not saying SWTOR will solve this problem. But it's at least their intent to try. The evolutionary step that took us from spawncamp XP grinds to Quest grinds next goes to Story grinding, with the difference between Quest and Story being that you are required to care at some point

Story v. Quest grinding 

I'd love to see an MMO that forgoes experience all together.

[Venkman]

If a game is targeting the proven audience, we're years from the demise of XP, especially when other genres have already picked up on the trend.

If a game targets a new audience, all bets are off. But that'll only matter to us as a curiosity

[Malakili]

If a game is targeting the proven audience, we're years from the demise of XP, especially when other genres have already picked up on the trend.

If a game targets a new audience, all bets are off. But that'll only matter to us as a curiosity

You're probably right.  The closest thing I think I've played is Battleground Europe (Aka World War II Online), and that game did have ranks that unlocked new "classes" (I.e spawn with a sub machine gun infantry instead of a rifleman infantry).   Though, that game is almost 100% PvP, and there is no way to "grind" experience points that I ever knew about.  Hell, if the engine wasn't so horribly dated, I'd still be playing that game to be honest.

I guess my point is, that there is plenty of room for innovation and evolution, but I don't really think the SWTOR is going in that direction with this story based business.  Whats its doing is giving us a single player game with a co-op option and a monthly fee.   

[DLRiley]

Not saying SWTOR will solve this problem. But it's at least their intent to try. The evolutionary step that took us from spawncamp XP grinds to Quest grinds next goes to Story grinding, with the difference between Quest and Story being that you are required to care at some point

Story v. Quest grinding 

I'd love to see an MMO that forgoes experience all together.

That will be the day when I gladly spend $15 on an mmo.

[Nebu]

That will be the day when I gladly spend $15 on an mmo.

I'm guessing you never played a Tale in the Desert?  The first two tellings were all about puzzle solving and socializing.  Granted, it was a weakly implemented grindfest of mythic proportions but it wasn't about the "DING GRATZ".  ATitD was on the right track to break the standard fantasy diku scheme.  It just never made the transition from theory to practice. 

[Venkman]

Eve has no XP either 

The closest thing I think I've played is Battleground Europe (Aka World War II Online), and that game did have ranks that unlocked new "classes" (I.e spawn with a sub machine gun infantry instead of a rifleman infantry).   Though, that game is almost 100% PvP, and there is no way to "grind" experience points that I ever knew about. 

You'd enjoy COD4 if you haven't played it. And it's PvP, and can be grinded very well (particularly in hardcore mode on popular servers)

[schild]

I don't know what that grin is, but Eve has more levels an experience than any other game ever made.

[Venkman]

It doesn't have XP in the way other games have it.

The grin is the irony that even though it doesn't have straight grindable XP, the grind in Eve is akin to any Far Eastern import, and worse by far than any "grindy" diku.

[schild]

It doesn't have XP in the way other games have it.

Yea it does, it just accrues automatically over time and is shown to you in a Time Remaining setup instead of a bar. Though there may be a bar somewhere.

It's Progress Quest, IN SPACE. That you PAY FOR.

[rattran]

It's Progress Quest, IN SPACE. That you PAY FOR.

Doesn't that cover any space mmo?

[Venkman]

It doesn't have XP in the way other games have it.

Yea it does, it just accrues automatically over time and is shown to you in a Time Remaining setup instead of a bar. Though there may be a bar somewhere.

It's Progress Quest, IN SPACE. That you PAY FOR.

No. Eve is more akin to UO than any of the EQ-to-AoC diku-inspired systems. The difference is choice. You're playing a WoW to fulfill the assumptions you made at the time of character creation, with some light flavor choices made along the way. You might play Eve or UO (or old SWG) this way too, but you can change your mind later and not lose 100% of your progress.

Then you add the extra fact that in Eve you're not grinding those skills at all. Just waiting for them.

It's a grindy game to be sure. Just for completely different reasons. But that can be said for any MMO, or any RPG where players can max out skills before partaking on quests

[DLRiley]

How long will it take to afford and be able to use a titan 

[Venkman]

Kumauri Battleship. Come on man, get it right

[Ratman_tf]

Bzzz

Oh, Bzzz yourself. I didn't ask why people who don't raid bother to level up at all, just why they'd be in a hurry, which they generally are not.

I have a character in WoW that is totally solo. I may have grouped like, once years ago and have forgotten about it. Anyway, I was never in a rush with that character. I spent a ton of time in Azshara just camping mobs and pretending the game didn't suck for soloers. 

[UnSub]

From here:

Their panel will be called "Behind the Scenes: The making of Star Wars: The Old Republic", taking place in room 7AB on Friday the 24th of July, from 1:00PM to 2:00PM. This will feature the most SWTOR devs of the show.

A making-of discussion before the game is even made! How original! 

[Triforcer]

Hey, it beats releasing actual information about the game- since you have to string the "real" information out over the next 2-3 years.  I heard Sept-Nov 2009 will be a series of hard-hitting exposes on how they decided to make blaster bolts red. 

[Murgos]

I love that no one knows anything much about this game and yet it's already up to 47 pages of nonsense.

[Cyrrex]

Dude, it's a Star Wars thread.  We won't be satisfied until we round 100 pages.  I expect in a few pages from now, someone will make a poor joke about "does it have twitch", then some fool will talk about how there better be player bounties.  Followed by 2 pages of how smuggling could be done.  We'll then wax nostalgic for a few more pages about the good ole days of SWG, with half the crowd claiming that SWG sucked since forever, and they should know dammit, from having had played on Bria for all those years.  The other half will talk fondly about crafting and Creature Handling.  I'll remind people about how awesomely powerful my Riflman/Fencer hybrid was.  That will remind people of the great/broken/completely shitty skill system SWG had, and NerdRage will ensue when we get to the CU that began breaking that process (though it didn't really!).  But the NGE did, by God, and that was the biggest pile of shit EVER.  Except that that's the version they should have launched with, and then it would have been no problem, and in fact, robot jesus on a piece of toast.  They fucked the playerbase, you see, it doesn't matter what they did.  It's that they didn't tell us.  Then we'll get back to SWTOR and how it really is just KOTOR parts 3 through 12, and really just a co-op game and they have no business charging people for it, the fuckers.  Oh, and they better not make Jedi the alpha class, because of all the whining and stuff.  We'll debate whether or not one Jedi really could ever handle so many troopers/bounty hunters/droid mechanics at one time, and how nobody should be allowed to heal.  Except Combat Medics, because that would be awesome, despite the fact that healing yourself fully in the middle of battle is probably the most preposterous concept imaginable.

So, you see, we have plenty of material to cover yet.  At least 5 times.

[Sky]

You forgot:

[Lantyssa]

Creature Handlers.

[Oban]

Can my combat medic still use poisons and diseases?