SWTOR

[SnakeCharmer]

Green?

[DLRiley]

Just because you built your entire game around a bad idea, doesn't mean it's not a bad idea. 10 minute cool downs, it as if the game is expecting me not to be bored in 5 

[Malakili]

Just because you built your entire game around a bad idea, doesn't mean it's not a bad idea. 10 minute cool downs, it as if the game is expecting me not to be bored in 5 

Its not their only spell, you realize yes?

[Brogarn]

Just because you built your entire game around a bad idea, doesn't mean it's not a bad idea. 10 minute cool downs, it as if the game is expecting me not to be bored in 5 

*blink*

While I'm not a fan of long cool down timers (mainly because if it has a long cool down, I rarely use it, so I forget I have it) I don't see why making 10 minute cool downs on some abilities would cause you to be bored in 5 minutes. Why aren't you doing other things in that 10 minutes?

Are you on the pot? Your posts make me think you're on the pot.

[Lantyssa]

Green?

So blindingly green it looks white.

[gryeyes]

Dont blame the pot! In games where i had an uber ability on a long cooldown i was so frugal I noticed I would almost never use it. But i don't find anything intrinsically wrong with having a 1 shot awesome ability to give a class some flavor. Give a class that is awful in combat a momentary feeling of awesome or something similar.

[AutomaticZen]

Dont blame the pot! In games where i had an uber ability on a long cooldown i was so frugal I noticed I would almost never use it. But i don't find anything intrinsically wrong with having a 1 shot awesome ability to give a class some flavor. Give a class that is awful in combat a momentary feeling of awesome or something similar.

Like Lay On Hands in WoW.  60 minutes, never used it.  20 minutes, I use it in most boss encounters while tanking.

[Simond]

The FFXI Red Mage is centered around an ability with a 10 minute cooldown and it works great. To say that that's "backward" is just silly and closing off an area of game design for no reason.

In particular the ability swaps your HP and MP. So playing Red Mage is very much a resource management game, you try to pace yourself such that just at the ten minute mark you are out of HP, swap your HP and MP and then have ten minutes to refill your HP while slowly draining your MP again.

WoW has a similar class, it's called a Warlock, except of flipping Health/Mana completely every 10 mins, they can flip smaller chunks of their health into mana at will.

And EQ shaman had cannibalise before both those games existed.
GET OFF MY LAWN!

[tmp]

Just because you built your entire game around a bad idea, doesn't mean it's not a bad idea.

You have yet to tell what's so bad about it.

[Lantyssa]

What's good about it?

It sounds great if you're OCD about timing your mana consumption to perfect ten minute intervals, but for the rest of us...?

[Ingmar]

If your design space is 'game where the combats are over 10 minutes long and it is purely PVE and you want it to be a resource management game' then it is a fine idea. I don't think that's a terribly mainstream niche, but it isn't inherently bad as long as PVP isn't on the table.

[SnakeCharmer]

Oh yeah.  For PvP, long timers are awesome.

Use it once.  Then gimped for 10 minutes.  Completely awesome.

1999 called.  They want their game design back.

[tmp]

What's good about it?

It sounds great if you're OCD about timing your mana consumption to perfect ten minute intervals, but for the rest of us...?

I was referring rather to the "30 secs is stupidly long and backward design" from earlier in the thread. 10 min cd health/mana swap is kinda meh when used in the manner described, but it strikes me more like it was supposed to be an "oh shit" panic button rather than something to base gameplay around like the OCD types might be tempted to. And for such "oh shit" ability 10 min cd is about right imo.

[tmp]

Oh yeah.  For PvP, long timers are awesome.

Use it once.  Then gimped for 10 minutes.  Completely awesome.

1999 called.  They want their game design back.

Depends on the ability. E.g. there's a number of 10 min cd skills in LotRO -- they allow burglar to re-enter stealth from combat, lore-master can restore large part of their morale and gain short term chance based protection from incoming hits, champion can enter combat mode where they maintain increased damage output but without associated penalty to avoidance, etc. They provide extra power in a pinch to classes which are already powerful without them, and it's questionable if the game would be any better if these were either made available more frequently, or removed altogether.

[schild]

On the topic of cooldown. Nothing is more annoying - NOTHING - than my warp back home being on a timer. I should be able to go back to whatever binded area I have whenever I want. If I want to go back once every 5 minutes, nothing should be stopping me. I'm sorry if it makes your fedex quests a little shorter. Also, I should be allowed to warp to ANY area that I've discovered. Sorry if it makes your giant world a little smaller.

As for this discussion on cooldown timers in combat. Feh. The current model of MMOG combat is crap. Trying to fix a broken system is a ridiculous endeavor.

[SnakeCharmer]

I could go for everything Schild just said.

To that point, timers are nothing but cockblocks to extend playing (read: subscription) time.  Running back and forth isn't fun.  Riding a mount back and forth isn't fun.  It's not content.  Watching rotating timers isn't fun.  What's the point of creating this beautiful world, with awesome animations and particle effects if all I see is a little box that has some sort of rotating animation to let me know when it's going to be ready to use again?

[tmp]

What's the point of creating this beautiful world, with awesome animations and particle effects if all I see is a little box that has some sort of rotating animation to let me know when it's going to be ready to use again?

The only things i watch in TF2 is my health meter and the ammo count. Why did they bother with everything else?  

edit: on the subject of cooldowns, they're present in various form in many types of games. RTS will let you output units at certain rates, card games will provide you with abilities in manner which is basically random-length cooldown. So meh, if that's cockblocks they're out there in force.

[SnakeCharmer]

They made it big enough where you can see it with your peripheral vision.  Not so much in an MMO.

[tmp]

They made it big enough where you can see it with your peripheral vision.  Not so much in an MMO.

Don't they have mods for that, in WoW at least?

[SnakeCharmer]

You absolutely should not have to utilize mods to play the game effectively.  Mods are nothing but workarounds to shitty game / GUI / UI design.

[tmp]

Ah no argument there. But it can make imo quite a difference if it's shitty mechanics or shitty UI, that makes the experience shitty overall.

[Vash]

They made it big enough where you can see it with your peripheral vision.  Not so much in an MMO.

Don't they have mods for that, in WoW at least?

Yes, use Jim's Cooldown Pulse or Power Auras and you'll have more cues in your peripheral vision than you'll ever need.

You absolutely should not have to utilize mods to play the game effectively.  Mods are nothing but workarounds to shitty game / GUI / UI design.

I think we already had this exact same discussion for several pages a few weeks ago in the thread about Sir Bruce's IMGDC presentation.  In summary: many of us agree with that statement.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=16814.105

[Mrbloodworth]

You absolutely should not have to utilize mods to play the game effectively.  Mods are nothing but workarounds to shitty game / GUI / UI design.

Deja vu?

[Segoris]

I like the idea of being able to teleport back to a bound location whenever someone wants without a cooldown, as long as it's not in a pvp area. It is absolute shit when people in pvp areas can magically disappear to their home location. A mage/wizard/caster with a teleport spell is one thing, but a warrior/pally/rogue doing it is crap.

Granted good pvp games have been dead for years, but I still hold hope that a game will revive it a bit.


Edit: changed game to area

[SnakeCharmer]

You absolutely should not have to utilize mods to play the game effectively.  Mods are nothing but workarounds to shitty game / GUI / UI design.

Deja vu?

Probably.  I find it hard to believe that I'm the only person that's ever said that.

[Fordel]

Really, GuildWars still has the best 'MMO-Style' combat system to date. No cool downs longer then 2 mins, no endless button mashing or ability overload, no finite mana, nearly endless 'spec' possibilities. They even let you teleport to any place you've been at will.


If only they let you jump 

[Ingmar]

Really, GuildWars still has the best 'MMO-Style' combat system to date. No cool downs longer then 2 mins, no endless button mashing or ability overload, no finite mana, nearly endless 'spec' possibilities. They even let you teleport to any place you've been at will.


If only they let you jump 

I'm pretty fond of City of Heroes combat too, at least some aspects of it. Clearly we need a hybrid: Guild Wars with super jump.

[schild]

What's the point of creating this beautiful world, with awesome animations and particle effects if all I see is a little box that has some sort of rotating animation to let me know when it's going to be ready to use again?

The only things i watch in TF2 is my health meter and the ammo count. Why did they bother with everything else?  

Maybe you should try playing classes less brainless than heavy or pyro

I actually went to see if I could turn off the entire GUI for myself earlier while playing spy, heh.

[rattran]

What's the point of creating this beautiful world, with awesome animations and particle effects if all I see is a little box that has some sort of rotating animation to let me know when it's going to be ready to use again?

The only things i watch in TF2 is my health meter and the ammo count. Why did they bother with everything else?  

Maybe you should try playing classes less brainless than heavy or pyro

I actually went to see if I could turn off the entire GUI for myself earlier while playing spy, heh.

Pyro played right is a hell of a lot of work.

And what does this have to do with ShadowbaneWTOR?

[DLRiley]

Really, GuildWars still has the best 'MMO-Style' combat system to date. No cool downs longer then 2 mins, no endless button mashing or ability overload, no finite mana, nearly endless 'spec' possibilities. They even let you teleport to any place you've been at will.


If only they let you jump 

Guild Wars lack of primitive design decisions is the reason I bothered paying for it. Simply put I want skills that are usable when I want to use them. If I'm not retarded with my energy management I have the right to use things according to the flow of combat. Simple as that. The reason why diku's are still in business and will remain in business because even the most jaded cynic of the genre is in love with some backward as fuck stone age game design that they see no problem with.

[taolurker]

And what does this have to do with ShadowbaneWTOR?

I asked this a few pages back, and since then this tangent filled ADD fest has gone considerably further off the deep end, discussing topics already discussed elsewhere, several other games, playstyles and opinions of game mechanix.

I would be considerably more pleased wading through pages of posts in this thread if it were actually containing something resembling discussion of SWTOR... but I guess letting the thread drift to page 2 is not likely to happen.

[Triforcer]

We don't actually know anything about SWTOR.  They are releasing the "name" of a planet or class about once a month.  There is no information about mechanics, PvP, crafting, etc.  That makes it hard to talk about. 

[Margalis]

IT HAS A HAN SOLO TYPE OF CLASS OMG SHOCKING!!!!

What's to talk about?

On the topic at hand, to me saying that a game must have abilities on short timers is like saying a game must have co-op Toads whose limbs grow really big and funny looking when you punch people. Hard and fast rules about anything are usually wrong, especially ones that require a great deal of context to be evaluated.

[taolurker]

We don't actually know anything about SWTOR.  They are releasing the "name" of a planet or class about once a month.  There is no information about mechanics, PvP, crafting, etc.  That makes it hard to talk about. 

I know it's hard to stay on topic, but a good rule of thumb is if you mention a game not named SWTOR, it's likely not on topic.

Game mechanix and wishlists are one thing, but talking about what WoW has versus Guildwars vs this mechanic in EQ2? That isn't exactly making this a SWTOR thread.

I just want to read two pages of posts that are at least speculative about SWTOR or info they have released, instead of comparing MMO epicfail/epicw1n from other threads. It's not like Bioware is looking here for ideas, that's what their forums are for.

[Mrbloodworth]

IT HAS A HAN SOLO TYPE OF CLASS OMG SHOCKING!!!!

But... Can you shoot first?